That would require me to have free will!
Under Calvinism, I do not. Under Calvinism, no sinner had the chance to repent. No Savior, just a God that ctreated them for the splat.
Regeneration before or after saving faith
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Under Calvinism, I do not. Under Calvinism, no sinner had the chance to repent. No Savior, just a God that ctreated them for the splat.
However, out in the real world it's been about 6,000 years since GOD let Lucifer-Satan tempt Eve according to you.
And its obvious we are in the end times and can expect Jesus to return soon and then spend 1,000 years sorting the tares from the wheat in final blazing fire.
So you and many like you believe that GOD didn't know how to make a human being and masses of angels who would choose right over wrong and needed 7,000 years to realise that GOD's way is best.
But if GOD knew the angels and humans would choose evil over right wouldn't He have instilled holy spirit in both of them at creation to guide them to be right the way it guides Christians?
To claim GOD created a perfect universe that concealed many rotten eggs seems a little odd? Such a universe would not be perfect?
And as after Jesus has finally swept Satan into the eternal lake of fire wouldn't the unverse then be perfect?
Has GOD wasted 7,000 years just to refine His creations?
ROTFLOL! How can you actually say that when you whole theology rests on that not being true?
If she is doomed, in your system, she has nothing at all to do with it. At least be consistent..good grief.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
We aren’t sovereign. In a kingdom, only the king has rule. He may give others power to execute certain things, but the king overrules them when push comes from shove.
In Calvinism, we believe ppl choose. We believe ppl freely choose. God or Satan doesn’t make us do that which we don’t want to do. We can’t blame Satan when we sin, we freely sin. However, when God quickens us, He changes our nature, and this also changes our will. He does a spiritual CPR on us. And by doing this, we come to life.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Sure, you're not angry, but throw in some defamatory comment on my person to prove you're not angry.
Who brought up anything about irresistible salvation? Not me. Can we stay on topic?
I don't assume God's will is always done to see it my way, or whatever you're trying to say, which has nothing to do with our convo.
I've refuted your position entirely, you snip out the portions where this happened in your replies. Shall we begin again, so I can dismantle your false gospel?
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Nope. You're assuming you exercise your will to get saved. You don't: Romans 9:16; John 1:13; James 1:18.
The rest of your post is showing your misunderstanding and it is all a straw man. No Calvinist believes or teaches those things except for the fact that yes, some were created for the day of evil, just as some angels also were. Both are Biblical and we do not know as to why, but trust in a good God who does know. We do know that God is not unjust to do so, as they are guilty of sin.
Can a person choose to accept Christ as their Lord & Savior?We aren’t sovereign. In a kingdom, only the king has rule. He may give others power to execute certain things, but the king overrules them when push comes from shove.
In Calvinism, we believe ppl choose. We believe ppl freely choose. God or Satan doesn’t make us do that which we don’t want to do. We can’t blame Satan when we sin, we freely sin. However, when God quickens us, He changes our nature, and this also changes our will. He does a spiritual CPR on us. And by doing this, we come to life.
So once again: by your logic I'm not saved* because that's how God wills it. Nothing to do with me choosing to accept or reject Christ. (*again, by your logic)
So you don't know why God created wicked people to go splat?
For me, this is a super basic question. It's not a strawman.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
I never stated God has saved you because he has not willed to save "Jane." However, if you come to do what God awaits for his elect 2 Peter 3:9 that is, to come to repentance, he will save you. This isn't my logic, this is Biblical doctrine.
It's not a super easy question to answer, but in Scripture we know one reason at least, but we do not have all the answers to this subject, but we do know what God revealed. So, we can go by that.
For the record a straw man is misrepresenting another person, it is not asking questions. That's why I say, no offense, but you misrepresented my "Calvinist" beliefs in your prior post.
Hold onto your seat, you want to know why God created them? For His glory.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Here this is for you to read @Jane_Doe22 . It is short and concise:
The Lord's Purpose for the Wicked
The Lord's Purpose for the Wicked
You said: "if you come to do what"
Does that really have anything to do with me or my choices? I don't see how in your belief it does. They have no will. They are as God created them.
Ok, so all of the people going splat gives God glory?
Again, these are actual real questions.
...that wasn't really an answer, though I do appreciate them trying to touch on the subject of those predestined unconditionally for eternal damnation.
You keep saying that you refuted my position entirely, as if that means something. Show me, don't tell me. All I saw were some random verses with no context. So, what was the quote from John 6 supposed to prove then?Sure, you're not angry, but throw in some defamatory comment on my person to prove you're not angry.
Who brought up anything about irresistible salvation? Not me. Can we stay on topic?
I don't assume God's will is always done to see it my way, or whatever you're trying to say, which has nothing to do with our convo.
I've refuted your position entirely, you snip out the portions where this happened in your replies. Shall we begin again, so I can dismantle your false gospel?
Again, hogwash, according to your own doctrine. If she does exactly what God asks, but is not elect, in your system, nothing happens. Or, perhaps she will be temporarily enlightened and then God will say "Ha, ha, just kidding, you weren't really elect."
No, you don't. You believe the choice is made for them, and they only follow the strongest desire that God has given them to follow. Again, at least be consistent. This compatiblism nonsense is exactly why people like me get so frustrated with Calvinists. You constantly talk out of both sides of your mouth and then when people say it doesn't make sense, you say " oh, you just don't understand." Nope, because there's nothing that can be understood about a self contradicting doctrine.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I do not see this
I see here blaming God for putting out to "splat" with no hope.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Here you go @Renniks
I show below how you take the text you offered completely out of context, misused it, and misapplied it to lost folks only in order to support your error that the lost have to meet conditions for God to save them.
This is further proof you do in fact say they have the ability, something you denied believing only after you stated YOU prepared your heart SO God would save you. You're being either disingenuous, dishonest, or perhaps both.
This text isn't about, for, or to the lost. You've failed to implement 2 Timothy 2:15 which is why your conclusion is absolutely false and finds zero support from Scripture.
This is just one example of how you've been refuted; you shamefully mishandled Gods word.
I will bring more where your response snipped out my refutation.
Here you go:
I show below how you take the text you offered completely out of context, misused it, and misapplied it to lost folks only in order to support your error that the lost have to meet conditions for God to save them.
This is further proof you do in fact say they have the ability, something you denied believing only after you stated YOU prepared your heart SO God would save you. You're being either disingenuous, dishonest, or perhaps both.
This text isn't about, for, or to the lost. You've failed to implement 2 Timothy 2:15 which is why your conclusion is absolutely false and finds zero support from Scripture.
This is just one example of how you've been refuted; you shamefully mishandled Gods word.
I will bring more where your response snipped out my refutation.
Here you go:
This is the typical Calvinist response.
But just one verse in Scripture THOROUGHLY DEMOLISHES Five Point Calvinism -- John 1:29.
Even John Calvin could not avoid its plain meaning, which undercuts Limited Atonement (the L in TULIP).
FROM CALVIN'S COMMENATARY (Bible Hub)
...Behold the Lamb of God. The principal office of Christ is briefly but clearly stated; that he takes away the sins of the world by the sacrifice of his death, and reconciles men to God...
...Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him...
Therefore all Calvinists should be ASHAMED of contradicting both the Bible and John Calvin!
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