Is this good for Christianity?

[Paul Christensen]

1. “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." John 17:24

2. Reality is that which is infinite, forever.

3. It is not the bible that precedes time, but rather what is written therein.

My "testimony" is what I testify that has been given to me from God (spiritually).

4. If you don't want advice, don't ask. The real issue here would appear to be psychological, a complex: Why is it that you put up red flags when given advice?

5. No, no, it is you who has been doing the two-step, not me. As for my explanations, I have plainly stated that it all agrees with the bible. But what I have also offered are the missing pieces that you have never heard before. Yet you can't bring yourself to go beyond your limited comfort zone, and pass anything out of the realm of your understanding off as "magical", at which point you categorically dismiss it. The same mechanism that you affront all things beyond you, is also that which you hide behind. It's your dodge, and the very thing that keeps you down. No...we could not "go from there"...because you won't allow yourself. But here you are psycho-flirting.

6. No, you came around asking questions, with no intention of going where the answers are to be found. That's evasive. Your behavior is that of a tagger who reveals his inner self and then retreats into the darkness. And, no, that also means it is you yourself who makes all of this personal, no one else.

If you ever actually want to have a serious discussion...you need to change.

The problem is that he can't change, because the only way he can change is if the Holy Spirit allows him to see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ. Until he understands that, he will remain blinded.

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Until the Holy Spirit does the necessary work in him, he will just continue to ask question after question until you are just sucked down into the vortex of fruitless debate with a person who just doesn't understand the gospel. This is because "the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who believe not" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

So, I think you are spitting into the wind trying to make him see what the gospel is all about.

 

[Justadude]

Jesus says there are no perverts, no thieves, no liars, no idolators, etc etc etc IN HEAVEN in the life to come.

So they either repent in this life, and are born again, by the Will of the Father in heaven,
or
they do not make it.

No need to hate nor to fear any man, no matter how wicked they are -

if God is for us, who can be against us - what can man do to me ? Do NOT be afraid of He who can kill the body and that's all - rather fear

Him who is ABLE (and WILL) destroy both the body and the soul.....

What about if those liars are driving people away from being Christian?

"Society" including religion, politics, medicine, science, etc etc etc

IS NOT GOOD. (nor Godly, nor Righteous, nor Saved).

Do you judge society solely on how Christian it is?

 

[Justadude]

1. “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." John 17:24

The Gospel of John was written ~80 AD, so it most certainly does not precede time.

2. Reality is that which is infinite, forever.

Where did you get that definition?

3. It is not the bible that precedes time, but rather what is written therein.

How do you know?

My "testimony" is what I testify that has been given to me from God (spiritually).

Right, but as we've been over there are lots and lots and lots of people who claim the same thing.

4. If you don't want advice, don't ask. The real issue here would appear to be psychological, a complex: Why is it that you put up red flags when given advice?

I explained that. The red flags go up when someone tells me to stop thinking, stop asking questions, suspend critical thinking, and "just have faith". Specific to your story, so far you've given me no concrete reason to accept what you say as true, and you appear to be getting increasingly annoyed that I don't just take your word for things.

5. No, no, it is you who has been doing the two-step, not me. As for my explanations, I have plainly stated that it all agrees with the bible.

So? Explanations and such from Imams all agree with the Quran. The same is true of Buddhist Monks, Mormon elders, etc. All their testimonies, revelations, and explanations agree with their sacred scriptures. So that yours agree with the Bible is hardly surprising or noteworthy.

But what I have also offered are the missing pieces that you have never heard before.

You mean your dream/vision?

Yet you can't bring yourself to go beyond your limited comfort zone, and pass anything out of the realm of your understanding off as "magical", at which point you categorically dismiss it. The same mechanism that you affront all things beyond you, is also that which you hide behind. It's your dodge, and the very thing that keeps you down. No...we could not "go from there"...because you won't allow yourself. But here you are psycho-flirting.

You've given me no reason to accept your dream/vision as anything other than just a dream some anonymous guy on the internet had.

In a conversation with another Christian in this thread the notion of placing oneself in someone else's shoes and seeing things from their perspective came up. If you're able to do that, I'd like you to try and imagine you encountering a Muslim Imam who tells you that he had a dream/vision about Mohammed and Allah. He tells you how it was entirely consistent with the Quran and how the wisdom in the Quran precedes time. When you start asking critical questions he calls you insane and basically chastises you for not just unquestioningly accepting his say so. When you try and explain that you're not going to blindly accept everything he says he accuses you of dodging and hiding from the truth.

Then ask yourself this. Do you think the Imam has made a compelling, persuasive case for you to adopt his beliefs?

6. No, you came around asking questions, with no intention of going where the answers are to be found. That's evasive. Your behavior is that of a tagger who reveals his inner self and then retreats into the darkness. And, no, that also means it is you yourself who makes all of this personal, no one else.

Do you understand how you've given me little to no reason to see your answers as basically things you've made up? Do you truly think you've made a powerfully compelling and persuasive case for me to change my worldview based on what you've posted here?

If you ever actually want to have a serious discussion...you need to change.

It seems to me that your idea of a "serious discussion" would entail me blindly accepting whatever you tell me and never asking critical questions. Like I said, that's entirely consistent with my experiences in church as a youth and is a major reason why I'm not a Christian.

 

[Justadude]

The problem is that he can't change, because the only way he can change is if the Holy Spirit allows him to see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ. Until he understands that, he will remain blinded.

I hope you appreciate how to me that's just another appeal to magic.

Until the Holy Spirit does the necessary work in him, he will just continue to ask question after question until you are just sucked down into the vortex of fruitless debate with a person who just doesn't understand the gospel. This is because "the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who believe not" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

So, I think you are spitting into the wind trying to make him see what the gospel is all about.

When I was quite young our pastor actually pulled my parents aside and told them they needed to have a talk with me about not asking questions all the time and what it means to "have faith". To my parents' credit they told the pastor that I was the kind of kid who loved to ask questions and learn and they were not going to quash that.

I'm often struck by how common the "don't ask questions, just have faith" sentiment is in religion. In some ways I don't think some types of religion could exist without it.

 

[Joseph77]

This doesn't look good...
"China warns coronavirus can spread before symptoms show

Rising toll: 80 people are dead and more than 2,700 cases have been confirmed in mainland China, as the Wuhan coronavirus continues to spread throughout Asia and the rest of the world.
China on lockdown: Nearly 60 million people have been affected by partial or full lockdowns in Chinese cities as the country's government steps up its response.
Global spread: There are more than 50 confirmed cases in 13 places outside of mainland China, including at least five in the United States.
Contagious before symptoms: People can spread the virus before symptoms show, China's health minister said Sunday, complicating efforts to contain the outbreak."Coronavirus outbreak: Latest news and live updates - CNN

"Stocks tumble amid growing coronavirus fears
Global stock markets sank Monday amid growing fears about the Chinese coronavirus that has killed dozens and spread to more than 10 countries.

The MSCI All-Country World Index tracking stocks in more than 40 countries fell 0.42 to its lowest point in two weeks after the death toll from the virus rose to 81 and three new cases were confirmed in the US this weekend.

“The coronavirus is an economic and financial shock,” Bannockburn Securities chief market strategist Marc Chandler told clients, according to Reuters. “The extent of that shock still needs to be assessed, but it could provide the spark for an arguably long-overdue adjustment in the capital markets.”...https://nypost.com/2020/01/27/stocks-tumble-amid-growing-coronavirus-fears/

"China races to build hospitals to deal with coronavirus"

What about if those liars are driving people away from being Christian?

See above post. ('China').....

Do you judge society solely on how Christian it is?

No.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

What about if those liars are driving people away from being Christian?

You shouldn't adapt ANY belief system based on the faults people (cause all have them), but on inward truths.

Do you judge society solely on how Christian it is?

This doesn't really connect to Scott's comment.

I hope you appreciate how to me that's just another appeal to magic.

Note: I disagree with Paul's original comment here.

But my question is this: @Justadude do you understand that belief (any person's belief in anything) is not "magic"?

I explained that. The red flags go up when someone tells me to stop thinking, stop asking questions, suspend critical thinking, and "just have faith".

Notice how I have not done that?

When I was quite young our pastor actually pulled my parents aside and told them they needed to have a talk with me about not asking questions all the time and what it means to "have faith". To my parents' credit they told the pastor that I was the kind of kid who loved to ask questions and learn and they were not going to quash that.

I'm often struck by how common the "don't ask questions, just have faith" sentiment is in religion. In some ways I don't think some types of religion could exist without it.

Going to be blunt here: you need to move beyond that stereotyping. It's only damaging and prevents you from seeing & respecting many other people.

 

[Justadude]

See above post. ('China').....

I don't see how that post about COVID in China relates to my question.

No.

Okay, thanks.

 

[Justadude]

You shouldn't adapt ANY belief system based on the faults people (cause all have them), but on inward truths.

I agree. But there is plenty of polling data showing that the things I mention in the OP are making the faith less appealing to people, especially young people. I think it would quite unwise for Christians to ignore that.

This doesn't really connect to Scott's comment.

Probably because it wasn't in response to Scott's post.

But my question is this: @Justadude do you understand that belief (any person's belief in anything) is not "magic"?

It's not the belief, it's the appeal to supernatural intervention. In this case it's Paul's belief that my mind can't change until the Holy Spirit lets it happen. From my POV that's no different than a Wiccan telling me their spells will make things happen.

Notice how I have not done that?

For sure.

Going to be blunt here: you need to move beyond that stereotyping. It's only damaging and prevents you from seeing & respecting many other people.

I'm not stereotyping that to all believers and faiths. I'm noting how common that sentiment is among people that I've personally interacted with.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I'm not stereotyping that to all believers and faiths. I'm noting how common that sentiment is among people that I've personally interacted with.

I've also noticed being very common with athiests.

People being flawed, jerks, lairs, blind, unquestioning, etc is a human problem. Not one remotely unique to Christian humans. Therefore, correlating Christianity=problem doesn't make any sense, and frankly can be offensive.

 

[Joseph77]

I don't see how that post about COVID in China relates to my question.

I was distracted with a doctor's meeting, and have forgotten your question.

 

[Justadude]

I've also noticed being very common with athiests.

I honestly don't interact with atheists much at all. I can't think of any I know personally, in real life.

People being flawed, jerks, lairs, blind, unquestioning, etc is a human problem. Not one remotely unique to Christian humans.

I agree.

Therefore, correlating Christianity=problem doesn't make any sense, and frankly can be offensive.

I think you may be conflating/confusing my descriptions of my experiences with Christians and Christian leaders (which I've certainly done) with me saying all Christians are like that (which I've not done).

 

[Justadude]

I was distracted with a doctor's meeting, and have forgotten your question.

No worries.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I honestly don't interact with atheists much at all. I can't think of any I know personally, in real life.


I agree.


I think you may be conflating/confusing my descriptions of my experiences with Christians and Christian leaders (which I've certainly done) with me saying all Christians are like that (which I've not done).

When you:
- repeatedly make comments on the flawed humans in group A
- seldom make comments about all the non-flawed humans in group A
-seldom make comments on all the flawed humans not in group A
It give that impression very strongly.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I hope you appreciate how to me that's just another appeal to magic.


When I was quite young our pastor actually pulled my parents aside and told them they needed to have a talk with me about not asking questions all the time and what it means to "have faith". To my parents' credit they told the pastor that I was the kind of kid who loved to ask questions and learn and they were not going to quash that.

I'm often struck by how common the "don't ask questions, just have faith" sentiment is in religion. In some ways I don't think some types of religion could exist without it.

I understand that, and I am not judging you, but merely repeating what the Bible says about those who choose not to believe the gospel. You are identifying as agnostic, and this is saying that you know what the gospel says but you don't believe it. This is why you can't find satisfactory answers to your questions - you don't have the Holy Spirit in you to teach you the things of God; so you are trying to find answers with your rational mind, but it is not working for you, so you keep asking and asking, hoping that you will find the answer that you are looking for. But that answer will never come until you believe the gospel and know that you are a sinner, needing Christ as your Saviour.

You are like a person in an airplane that is going down, and you are desperately asking how you can escape with your life, but refusing the put the parachute on so you can jump safely, and so you keep on asking and asking but not getting the answer you need to prevent you crashing along with the airplane.

Faith in Christ is your parachute, and you have to "put it on" and trust that the gospel is true and that putting your trust in what Christ did for you on the cross will save you and give you confidence and boldness on the day of judgment.

 

[Justadude]

When you:
- repeatedly make comments on the flawed humans in group A
- seldom make comments about all the non-flawed humans in group A
-seldom make comments on all the flawed humans not in group A
It give that impression very strongly.

Please keep in mind that we're on a Christian message board in a thread specifically about the impact certain Christians are having on the public perception of the faith. Plus, a few Christians have attempted to persuade me but in doing so have most definitely exhibited the behaviors and ways of thinking that I've been talking about. So that I've not talked much about non-Christians is hardly surprising.

My suggestion is, if you don't like those behaviors and ways of thinking being associated with your faith, you put more effort into countering those things among your fellow believers, than you do towards complaining when people outside the faith make note of it.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Please keep in mind that we're on a Christian message board in a thread specifically about the impact certain Christians are having on the public perception of the faith. Plus, a few Christians have attempted to persuade me but in doing so have most definitely exhibited the behaviors and ways of thinking that I've been talking about. So that I've not talked much about non-Christians is hardly surprising.

A thread you started, and a theme that's being prevalent in your other posts as well.

My suggestion is, if you don't like those behaviors and ways of thinking being associated with your faith, you put more effort into countering those things among your fellow believers, than you do towards complaining when people outside the faith make note of it.

Dude, I'm not responsible for policing somebody else's actions. Get that ridiculous idea out of your head.
If "Bob" wants to make/take a stereotype and paste into into their skull, Bob alone is responsible for that. Not me or anyone else.

 

[Justadude]

I understand that, and I am not judging you, but merely repeating what the Bible says about those who choose not to believe the gospel.

That's fair. You were talking to Scott, so I understand.

You are identifying as agnostic, and this is saying that you know what the gospel says but you don't believe it. This is why you can't find satisfactory answers to your questions - you don't have the Holy Spirit in you to teach you the things of God; so you are trying to find answers with your rational mind, but it is not working for you, so you keep asking and asking, hoping that you will find the answer that you are looking for. But that answer will never come until you believe the gospel and know that you are a sinner, needing Christ as your Saviour.

I'll just note again how circular that is (you have to believe in order for the belief to make sense).

You are like a person in an airplane that is going down, and you are desperately asking how you can escape with your life, but refusing the put the parachute on so you can jump safely, and so you keep on asking and asking but not getting the answer you need to prevent you crashing along with the airplane.

Faith in Christ is your parachute, and you have to "put it on" and trust that the gospel is true and that putting your trust in what Christ did for you on the cross will save you and give you confidence and boldness on the day of judgment.

Except from my POV the airplane is flying just fine and when I question the people who insist it's going down, they tell me I have to first believe it's going down and then something magical will happen and I'll start to see how the plane is going down.

I don't like putting it this way because I understand how it comes across as offensive, but "you need to believe before it makes sense" is straight of the con man's playbook. That's why "con" is short for confidence. Once the con man has your trust, confidence, and faith he can get you to believe almost anything. It's why maintaining one's critical thinking is the antidote to being conned.

Please understand, I'm not saying you all are a bunch of con men. I do appreciate that you really do believe with all your hearts that the Bible is God's Word and God sent his only begotten Son to die for our sins. I'm just hoping some of you can understand how it seems from my perspective.

 

[Justadude]

A thread you started, and a theme that's being prevalent in your other posts as well.

I've only started one thread and I barely post elsewhere here.

Dude, I'm not responsible for policing somebody else's actions. Get that ridiculous idea out of your head.
If "Bob" wants to make/take a stereotype and paste into into their skull, Bob alone is responsible for that. Not me or anyone else.

Then you must accept the consequences of your inaction.

 

[Joseph77]

My suggestion is, if you don't like those behaviors and ways of thinking being associated with your faith, you put more effort into countering those things among your fellow believers, than you do towards complaining when people outside the faith make note of it.

Remember Noah ?
Remember Lot ?
Remember the Israelites ?
Remember the 1st century Ekklesia ?
Remember between the Garden and the Flood ?

There was only TWO TIMES when those who believed in God was "most" of the world ... Right after Adam and Chavah(Eve) were kicked out of the Garden, (for a time - though the world/society quickly grew in wickedness),
and after the Flood, (again, for a time - and the world/ society quickly grew in wickedness again).

So no one will see "many" true Christians if they look around the world/ society/ the USA... Europe/ etc ....

So no one will see what I think you expect or would think of "more effort" "countering those things" (that are wrong) everywhere.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Then you must accept the consequences of your inaction.

"Inaction" = not going after people for ThoughtCrime? Or otherwise enforcing how I think somebody else should act or think?

Are you advocating that I or anybody else should do this?