The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[Eternally Grateful]

First of all - calm down and take a deep breath . . .

I am calm..Did I hit a nerve?

Now - your FIRST blunder in RED is that you claim Paul's letter to the Ephesians was to the Church in ROME.
This is FALSE. It is to the Church in Ephesus. A 2nd grader could have told you that.

Thank you for showing my typo. I was thinking romans 4. But my end result is still the same. the letter to the church of ephisus was to the gentile church in the gentile church in a gentile city of ephesus.

thank you.

Your second blunder in RED is your claim about Abraham being "saved" by "Faith alone" - yet in the rest of your rant - you claim to reject the idea of "faith alone". You're a walking contradiction.
Besides - James 2:21 assures us that Abraham was justified by his WORKS.

so paul lied? but james Got it right.

Not it is not a blunder, Is your blunder, Because you IGNORE the context of WHo james wrote to and why.

The fact that Rom. 5 says that we are justified by faith PROVES my point that "Faith"= Belief + Works.
Faith is NOT simply "belief". - as James warns us that even the DEMONS "believe" (James 2:24).

see there you go adding to the word of God again, the word WORKS is not found in Romans.
Yes James warns us even demons believe, which proves mere belief has never saved anyone, It takes true faith, and TRUE FAITH HAS WORKS.

I guess I need to keep posting this over and over again, because it seems people are hard of understanding what it is I believe.

The problem with ALL anti-Catholics is that you ONLY read Paul's letters and ignore the rest of the New Testament - and therein lies your confusion. Read ALL of the epistles in CONTEXT with one another . . .

Yep

And don't forget the Gospels either, namely John, where jesus himself teaches the idea that we are saved because we have heard the words he gave, and placed our FAITH in him. And not just base our whole gospel on a few small verses in one book (james) because you see James and Paul agree. I can read both and come up with the same gospel..


you see. People who have not yet come to faith, even if they believe, Have yet to repent.

But you see what Catholics and other workers for fail to believe also, is they in trying to earn their salvation. Also have yet to repent.

You will have to answer to God. both the licentious, and the legalist. who are steeped in pride. and can not because poor in spirit. so they will not inherit the kingdom.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I will answer your question when YOU have answered mine:
When there is a doctrinal issue that needs to be resolved- where do YOU go??

I suspect that you won't answer my question because it'll expose you as a Sola Scripturist.

No, Because if I was a sola scripturalists. I would ONLY believe in doctrines specifically laid out word by word in scripture.

this is not true..

I believe in the trinity, the word trinity is not found in scripture

I believe in the 66 books of the bible. Yet whether you believe in the catholicized version or the other version. It still is not said in scripture

Again, WHO INSPIRED THE WORD?

if you answer this, You have answered your question to myself.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am calm..Did I hit a nerve?


Thank you for showing my typo. I was thinking romans 4. But my end result is still the same. the letter to the church of ephisus was to the gentile church in the gentile church in a gentile city of ephesus.

thank you.


so paul lied? but james Got it right.

Not it is not a blunder, Is your blunder, Because you IGNORE the context of WHo james wrote to and why.

see there you go adding to the word of God again, the word WORKS is not found in Romans.
Yes James warns us even demons believe, which proves mere belief has never saved anyone, It takes true faith, and TRUE FAITH HAS WORKS.

I guess I need to keep posting this over and over again, because it seems people are hard of understanding what it is I believe.

Yep

And don't forget the Gospels either, namely John, where jesus himself teaches the idea that we are saved because we have heard the words he gave, and placed our FAITH in him. And not just base our whole gospel on a few small verses in one book (james) because you see James and Paul agree. I can read both and come up with the same gospel..

you see. People who have not yet come to faith, even if they believe, Have yet to repent.

But you see what Catholics and other workers for fail to believe also, is they in trying to earn their salvation. Also have yet to repent.

You will have to answer to God. both the licentious, and the legalist. who are steeped in pride. and can not because poor in spirit. so they will not inherit the kingdom.

Still running around in circles . . .

Neither Paul NOR James is wrong. They are BOTH right - but Sola Fide adherents like YOU pit them against each other.

What James wrote harmonizes with what Paul wrote.
Paul wrote that Abraham was justified by faith - and James says Abraham was justified by works. This shows that TRUE faith is BOTH belief AND works.
It's not either/or - it's BOTH/and.

You'll never understand what true faith is until you understand this fact . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, Because if I was a sola scripturalists. I would ONLY believe in doctrines specifically laid out word by word in scripture.

this is not true..

I believe in the trinity, the word trinity is not found in scripture

I believe in the 66 books of the bible. Yet whether you believe in the catholicized version or the other version. It still is not said in scripture

Again, WHO INSPIRED THE WORD?

if you answer this, You have answered your question to myself.

That is FALSE.

Sola Scriptura doesn't necessarily mean that everything is explicitly mentioned in Scripture.
I'm sure that is ONE definition that may be used, But then, there are literally tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines.

If ALL you appeal to is Scripture - then YOU are a Sola Scripturist - whether you admit it or not.

I appeal to Scripture AND to Christ's Church - to which HE gave SUPREME earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23). He said that- that WHATEVER His Church binds or looses on earth will also be bound or loosed in Heaven.

By the way - WHO told you there were 66 Books in the Bible??

 

[Dave M]

Yes, I believe that a priest has the power to forgive or retain sins in Christ's name as prescribed by Christ.

thank you for your honest response brother, for me (being a x-catholic) I always thought that also. But I always repeated the sins weekly, I was never freed from them, so I was still enslaved to the sins. Then I stopped going to confession, prayed to God directly and repented with all my heart ,and I was changed and freed from the sin that enslaved me. I was born again.

here is some scripture that has helped me

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Luke 24:47
and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem

1 John 2:12
I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven through His name.

Let me ask you a question:

What do you think Christ was doing in John 20:21-23 when He appeared to the Apostles on the night of His Resurrection?
John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."[/QUOTE

thank you for the question my freind,

Jesus is telling the disciples to go out and proclaim the gospel just as the father sent Jesus, now Jesus is sending them out and giving them the Holly Spirit, and whoever believes in Jesus will have his sins forgiven, and who ever does not believe will not have his sins forgiven.

 

[BreadOfLife]

thank you for your honest response brother, for me (being a x-catholic) I always thought that also. But I always repeated the sins weekly, I was never freed from them, so I was still enslaved to the sins. Then I stopped going to confession, prayed to God directly and repented with all my heart ,and I was changed and freed from the sin that enslaved me. I was born again.

here is some scripture that has helped me

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Luke 24:47
and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem

1 John 2:12
I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven through His name.

thank you for the question my freind,

Jesus is telling the disciples to go out and proclaim the gospel just as the father sent Jesus, now Jesus is sending them out and giving them the Holly Spirit, and whoever believes in Jesus will have his sins forgiven, and who ever does not believe will not have his sins forgiven.

Thanks - however - this is not what John 20:21-23 is saying.

Jesus tells His Apostles that whose sins THEY forgive are forgiven them and whos sins THEY retain are retained.
The Greek word used here for "forgive" (aphiemi) means "to forgive, to remit, to send away, to send forth, yield up, to expire, to let go, give up a debt".

As for the verses you provided - of course, I agree with ALL of them. However, this doesn't detract from the power that Christ gave to the leaders of His Church in John 20:21-23. Jesus IS our only Mediator, in that, only HIS sacrifice brings peace between us and the Father. this doesn't mean that He can't use His ministerial priesthood to bring about the forgiveness of sins because HE is the High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25). Remember that Jesus said in that Upper Room.
He said: "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

What did the Father send the Son to do?
He sent Him to bring about the forgiveness of sins - and Jesus is doing the SAME thing with the Apostles here in John 20.

Right after this, He breathes on them as He is entrusting them with this ministry. This is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God "breathes" on man:
- The first is when he breathed life into Adam.
- The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.

 

[Dave M]

Thanks for your reply,, I respectfully disagree.

Let me explain a little further. As I was catholic most of my life and went to confession on a regular basis, yet I committed the sins over and over. If a person is sinning over and over, and doing the same sins, they are still a slave to sin, the priest has not freed me from my enslavement. Only Jesus has the power to make me born again and to free me from the enslavement of sins. The true test of our salvation is that if we have been born again and the true test of being born again is if we are a different person with a different heart. Jesus gives us a new heart so we DONT WANT TO SIN.

here is a example of the way I see things
if you sin against me, sure I can forgive you, but unless you are born again you still wont enter heaven.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Still running around in circles . . .

Neither Paul NOR James is wrong. They are BOTH right - but Sola Fide adherents like YOU pit them against each other.

What James wrote harmonizes with what Paul wrote.
Paul wrote that Abraham was justified by faith - and James says Abraham was justified by works. This shows that TRUE faith is BOTH belief AND works.
It's not either/or - it's BOTH/and.

You'll never understand what true faith is until you understand this fact . . .

your right

they are both right

Paul. spoke to people like you, trying to add workds to salvation

James spoke to hearers only not doers. People who had mere belief, but had no living faith, proven by the fact they had no works. Their faith was dead.

Can a dead faith save? NO!

but you do not believe this do you? You think people can have works, are are saved, then stop doing works. and lose salvation.

I do understand true faith

Once again, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FAITH WHICH DOES NOT WORK. (funny how you have yet to acknowledge I have said this multiple times now)

You should go do whatever form of penance you think is required for bearing false witness.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is FALSE.

Sola Scriptura doesn't necessarily mean that everything is explicitly mentioned in Scripture.
I'm sure that is ONE definition that may be used, But then, there are literally tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines.

If ALL you appeal to is Scripture - then YOU are a Sola Scripturist - whether you admit it or not.

I appeal to Scripture AND to Christ's Church - to which HE gave SUPREME earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23). He said that- that WHATEVER His Church binds or looses on earth will also be bound or loosed in Heaven.

By the way - WHO told you there were 66 Books in the Bible??

its funny

You seem to think you have the ability to change things

Thats why you have a problem convincing people your church is right.

I appeal to God. who is the final authority

You appeal to men.

Admit it for once in your life

 

[BreadOfLife]

its funny
You seem to think you have the ability to change things
Thats why you have a problem convincing people your church is right.
I appeal to God. who is the final authority
You appeal to men.
Admit it for once in your life

By ONLY appealing to Scripture - that makes you a Sola Scripturist.

On the other hand, Christ Himself stated that we are to appeal to His CHURCH and NOT only the Scriptures when there is need of a resolution (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

The Bible calls His Church the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 2:15) and the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
Jesus compares His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
It's not Christ OR His Church. They are INDIVISIBLE.

Sooooooo, WHO told you that the Bible had 66 Books??
The Bible doesn't say how many Books belong in it . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

your right

they are both right

Paul. spoke to people like you, trying to add workds to salvation

James spoke to hearers only not doers. People who had mere belief, but had no living faith, proven by the fact they had no works. Their faith was dead.

Can a dead faith save? NO!

but you do not believe this do you? You think people can have works, are are saved, then stop doing works. and lose salvation.

I do understand true faith

Once again, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FAITH WHICH DOES NOT WORK. (funny how you have yet to acknowledge I have said this multiple times now)

You should go do whatever form of penance you think is required for bearing false witness.

See? Now, you're LYING again . . .

I never said that works "save" us. As a matter of fact - I have repeatedly stated that TRUE Faith = Belief + WorKs. - as the Bible tells us (James 2:14-26, Gal. 5-6, Matt. 7:21). You cannot have one without the other and still call it "Faith".

It's funny that you keep claiming that your not a Sola Fide adherent like your Protestant Fathers in the 16th century - yet you keep throwing Romans 4 around saying that Abraham was saved by faith alone . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thanks for your reply,, I respectfully disagree.

Let me explain a little further. As I was catholic most of my life and went to confession on a regular basis, yet I committed the sins over and over. If a person is sinning over and over, and doing the same sins, they are still a slave to sin, the priest has not freed me from my enslavement. Only Jesus has the power to make me born again and to free me from the enslavement of sins. The true test of our salvation is that if we have been born again and the true test of being born again is if we are a different person with a different heart. Jesus gives us a new heart so we DONT WANT TO SIN.

here is a example of the way I see things
if you sin against me, sure I can forgive you, but unless you are born again you still wont enter heaven.

I don't see how you can "disagree" with the plain evidence of the text of John 20:21-23 where Jesus gives the Apostles the power to forgive or retain sins. This is not metaphorical language - it is straightforward.

Also - the fact that a person keeps committing the same sins is NOT the fault of the priest - and NOBODY is saying that it is the priest who frees you from your enslavement to sin. But, make NO mistake - committing sin does NOT mean that you WANT to keep committing sin. Paul explains this is great detail in Romans 7:13-25 in HIS personal struggle with sin.
Rom. 124-15
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery to sin. What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate.

For an unbeliever - sin is a normal way of life.
For a follower of Christ - sin is a struggle - and always WILL be until we are perfected and fully sanctified.

 

[Dave M]

I will leave you with what the bible tells us in plain language to do when we sin. very clear instructions, no mention of going to a "priest".

1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

But, make NO mistake - committing sin does NOT mean that you WANT to keep committing sin

1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I will leave you with what the bible tells us in plain language to do when we sin. very clear instructions, no mention of going to a "priest".

1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

Okay - but Paul makes NO small case for the Ministry of Reconciliation in the Church in 2 Cor. 5:18-20:

“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.
Additionally, the Early Church Fathers ALL interpreted John 20:21-23 the way I described it to you.

I will leave yo with this:
Why was it the unanimous position of the Early Church that one mus confess grave sins to the Church?
Why did they not teach as YOU do - that we simply confess to God on our own?

 

[RogerDC]

Well the bible says,
Mar_11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Gal_3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Most important

Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

But YOU are the one who chooses to have faith. YOU choose faith because God gave you free will. Without accepting the gift of faith, you cannot be saved, therefore it is YOUR decision to accept the gift of faith that results in your salvation. So according to your logic, by choosing faith, you have added to what Christ did on the Cross, which - again, according to your logic - means your faith is greater than what Christ did .

In other words, you've painted yourself into a corner, by claiming that
1. Christ "did it all" and there's nothing we can add that leads to our salvation,
2. If there is something we must do that leads to our salvation, that 'something' is greater than what Christ did.

Your argument fails a simple test of logic, so it's back to the drawing-board for you.

 

[RogerDC]

I will leave you with what the bible tells us in plain language to do when we sin. very clear instructions, no mention of going to a "priest".

1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.



1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

News Flash:. Not everything pertaining to Christianity and the Church is in the Bible.

No doubt someone told you otherwise, and you believed it - but you've been sold a myth and a fallacy.

 

[mjrhealth]

But YOU are the one who chooses to have faith. YOU choose faith because God gave you free will. Without accepting the gift of faith, you cannot be saved, therefore it is YOUR decision to accept the gift of faith that results in your salvation. So according to your logic, by choosing faith, you have added to what Christ did on the Cross, which - again, according to your logic - means your faith is greater than what Christ did .

In other words, you've painted yourself into a corner, by claiming that
1. Christ "did it all" and there's nothing we can add that leads to our salvation,
2. If there is something we must do that leads to our salvation, that 'something' is greater than what Christ did.

Your argument fails a simple test of logic, so it's back to the drawing-board for you.

Ye have faith to believe, what else is there to do, is that pat on the back all you seek or is it you wish to glorify Christ and God. Self is what religion is all about, you and proving to God what a good child you are.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

By ONLY appealing to Scripture - that makes you a Sola Scripturist.

On the other hand, Christ Himself stated that we are to appeal to His CHURCH and NOT only the Scriptures when there is need of a resolution (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

The Bible calls His Church the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 2:15) and the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
Jesus compares His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
It's not Christ OR His Church. They are INDIVISIBLE.

Sooooooo, WHO told you that the Bible had 66 Books??
The Bible doesn't say how many Books belong in it . . .

See you still can not find it in yourself to admit God wrote the Bible. Not man

so how do we know which church is the right church’s. Because man says? Or because God says? And if it is his true church, would that church not practice and do what Gods word says?

that’s all we need to know. You just admitted, you follow men,

well done

 

[Eternally Grateful]

See? Now, you're LYING again . . .

I never said that works "save" us. As a matter of fact - I have repeatedly stated that TRUE Faith = Belief + WorKs. - as the Bible tells us (James 2:14-26, Gal. 5-6, Matt. 7:21). You cannot have one without the other and still call it "Faith".

It's funny that you keep claiming that your not a Sola Fide adherent like your Protestant Fathers in the 16th century - yet you keep throwing Romans 4 around saying that Abraham was saved by faith alone . . .

Faith plus works = works. You can deny it all you want

it’s funny you keep saying you do not teach works, yet you keep throwing around james who appears to say we are saved by works

Romans says what it says, as does Ephesians, as does John who wrote the words of Jesus.

and again,

I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS SUCH A THING AS FAITH APART FROM WORKS

I am going to keep holding those words until you admit I have said them,

 

[Dave M]

News Flash:. Not everything pertaining to Christianity and the Church is in the Bible.

No doubt someone told you otherwise, and you believed it - but you've been sold a myth and a fallacy.

thank you for your reply, I seek only truth, not needing to right, I hope all do the same. I very much respectfully disagree with you freind. Man is not to be trusted, example look at all the child molesters that are catholic priest, brakes my heart to see anyone putting there faith in man over Gods word
.
I will leave you with some scripture that has blessed me, and pray it blesses you also. Have a good weekend

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
-----------rosary beads would be a great example of this
----------- exalting a man and calling him holly father (pope) would be another example

Mark 7:13
Thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”


the bible is final authority on all spiritual matters, if your religion tries to take that control, they are exalting themselves over God