Romans 7 and 8 without confusing verses

[reformed1689]

That's not it at all. I just can't be bothered debating with people who don't believe 1 Corinthians 14, and would rather not have it in their Bible, and who have been brainwashed by their Cessationist mentors and therefore read the chapter the way they want to rather than just accepting what is actually there. Any 10 year old can see in that chapter what you refuse to see.

And of course that is the lie. I DO believe 1 Cor 14.

 

[DNB]

I think not. We are apparently not communicating. Is that not a common problem among men?

I'm just saying that the Church, and even the world, would be a much better entity and place, if Christians were endowed with the Spirit as you allege, and were as edified and sanctified as you claim. This is existentially not the case, and, in my opinion, Biblically not the case either.
Jesus has made promises to bestow the Holy Spirit to his adherents, my point has always been that in order to receive them, it requires a great deal of humility and faith. And this, by both theory, statistics and practice, we don't witness as being a common endowment, throughout the history of the Church, and presently, ...especially on this forum, including myself.

 

[amadeus]

baaaaa

baaaaa

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10"3-4

 

[Joseph77]

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10"3-4

What can a sheep do for someone who is resisting, rejecting, ignoring the truth, ignoring Jesus (as bj is doing in his posts) ?
Continue testifying of the truth, prayerfully and hopefully for his sake ?
For how long ?

 

[amadeus]

I'm just saying that the Church, and even the world, would be a much better entity and place, if Christians were endowed with the Spirit as you allege, and were as edified and sanctified as you claim. This is existentially not the case, and, in my opinion, Biblically not the case either.
Jesus has made promises to bestow the Holy Spirit to his adherents, my point has always been that in order to receive them, it requires a great deal of humility and faith. And this, by both theory, statistics and practice, we don't witness as being a common endowment, throughout the history of the Church, and presently, ...especially on this forum, including myself.

What you see as a deficiency in the "Church" is simply the same deficiency in carnal men that was there long before Jesus died on Calvary and it continues today. It continues not because God is unable, but because men, even probably many men who started out right with God, having grown weary in well doing and having taken their eyes off of Jesus, walk their own pathway and call it His.

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20

Many bearing the label of Christian do this and teach others to do this and then some say as you do here 'if only they did it better...'? Certainly if everyone fully submitted themselves to God and did so continuously this society on planet Earth would be better... but God sees this better than we do. His plan is on the right track. The improvement of the earthly societies or church group of men via the Church is not really His ultimate goal, is it? Again back to what Apostle Paul wrote:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:..." I Cor 13:12

That "face to face" vision is not an empty promise. It is what is coming to pass in people. The only question for each person within himself is, 'am I or am I not to see that or do I'? In spite of what some on this forum will say, the answer to that question is up to each of us. God through His Son has made it a possibility, but too many looking at the frailties and weakness that they see in themselves and other men, continue to deny the possibility. They deny the power of God and to any one who claims to have it or that God is working on it in them they call such people on the carpet before themselves... as if they should have the final say.

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

Long before Jesus was born to Mary, David wrote these words:

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8

 

[DNB]

What you see as a deficiency in the "Church" is simply the same deficiency in carnal men that was there long before Jesus died on Calvary and it continues today. It continues not because God is unable, but because men, even probably many men who started out right with God, having grown weary in well doing and having taken their eyes off of Jesus, walk their own pathway and call it His.

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20

Many bearing the label of Christian do this and teach others to do this and then some say as you do here 'if only they did it better...'? Certainly if everyone fully submitted themselves to God and did so continuously this society on planet Earth would be better... but God sees this better than we do. His plan is on the right track. The improvement of the earthly societies or church group of men via the Church is not really His ultimate goal, is it? Again back to what Apostle Paul wrote:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:..." I Cor 13:12

That "face to face" vision is not an empty promise. It is what is coming to pass in people. The only question for each person within himself is, 'am I or am I not to see that or do I'? In spite of what some on this forum will say, the answer to that question is up to each of us. God through His Son has made it a possibility, but too many looking at the frailties and weakness that they see in themselves and other men, continue to deny the possibility. They deny the power of God and to any one who claims to have it or that God is working on it in them they call such people on the carpet before themselves... as if they should have the final say.

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

Long before Jesus was born to Mary, David wrote these words:

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8

Do you know how many people on this forum, like yourself, who claim to have either, angels walking in their rooms, sinless perfection, talk to God daily, receive dreams prophecy and revelation from God, are one with God, etc... Yes, I believe that you are aware. So let's not talk about people's doubts or insecurities about these issues, but about their delusions, irreverence, self-righteousness, and so on...
Again Amadues, you are the king of skirting around an issue. I barely ever get a straight answer from you, it seems?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yeah, the doctrine's of grace didn't show up only 500 years ago...

This twisted version did

 

[Joseph77]

Realizing that old age, diminished capability in mind and body and spirit and soul,
false teachings accepted knowingly or not knowingly (for decades),
imbalanced factors in the body's biology,
even problems in the air being breathed , toxins in the air,
can affect your day to day existence,
(helps maybe explain, though not necessarily can excuse, your twisted posts)
or others, all subject to Jesus, to testing, no matter who they are,

take time to re-consider what you decided was what you think is truth.

This twisted version did

 

[CharismaticLady]

Realizing that old age, diminished capability in mind and body and spirit and soul,
false teachings accepted knowingly or not knowingly (for decades),
imbalanced factors in the body's biology,
even problems in the air being breathed , toxins in the air,
can affect your day to day existence,
(helps maybe explain, though not necessarily can excuse, your twisted posts)
or others, all subject to Jesus, to testing, no matter who they are,

take time to re-consider what you decided was what you think is truth.

The younger they are, the more they think they know.

 

[Joseph77]

The younger they are, the more they think they know.

And as is the case today, the older they are, the more they get wrong without realizing it,

unless by grace they repent.

 

[amadeus]

What can a sheep do for someone who is resisting, rejecting, ignoring the truth, ignoring Jesus (as bj is doing in his posts) ?
Continue testifying of the truth, prayerfully and hopefully for his sake ?
For how long ?

For how long should we continue? God continued patiently with rebellions of the children of Israel in the wilderness 10 times and then...?

"Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:" Num 14:22-23

Then they lost their promise!

Consider Peter's question to Jesus:

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven" Matt 18:21-22

But then consider an actual occurrence in my own history which I copy here from my own writings:

Back in the 1970's when our two children were quite small, my wife and I regularly picked up a sister in the Lord and gave her a ride to church meetings. She was a funny little lady and became a very good friend of my wife's. What I did not know and probably never would have learned, had not my wife told me, was that the sister in question was married to a man who drank heavily, cursed and physically beat her routinely in his efforts to get her to stop attending church and serving God. This had been going on for a few years before we met her. She refused to leave him and she refused to call the law against him.

When we followed the Lord to another place we lost touch with that sister and her very sad situation. Some years later we had occasion to return to that community and my wife recontacted her. After more than 25 years of marriage in that very abusive situation, the sister's trust in God had been rewarded. Her husband had gone to church and repented turning his life over to God. He became the hardest worker and best witness for God in the assembly.

 

[reformed1689]

This twisted version did

That just shows your ignorance of the topic.

 

[amadeus]

Do you know how many people on this forum, like yourself, who claim to have either, angels walking in their rooms, sinless perfection, talk to God daily, receive dreams prophecy and revelation from God, are one with God, etc... Yes, I believe that you are aware. So let's not talk about people's doubts or insecurities about these issues, but about their delusions, irreverence, self-righteousness, and so on...
Again Amadues, you are the king of skirting around an issue. I barely ever get a straight answer from you, it seems?

What have I done wrong in your eyes? I have told the truth as I have understood it. Would you feel better about me if I described with my answers something closer to the answers you have or see?

You want to talk about the delusions, irreverence and self-righteousness of people. To what end? Just to speculate or to pursue men's proposed solutions or what? Has not God addressed all of these things and provided the means for any really sincere person move to a better place?

You say I have skirted issues and have not been giving you a straight answer. I thought I was bending over backward to let you know my answers. My answers may indeed miss God's answers, but is He not working to correct that? Are you doubting that He can? Or that He will? Or both?

 

[Joseph77]

Back in the 1970's when our two children were quite small, my wife and I regularly picked up a sister in the Lord and gave her a ride to church meetings. She was a funny little lady and became a very good friend of my wife's. What I did not know and probably never would have learned, had not my wife told me, was that the sister in question was married to a man who drank heavily, cursed and physically beat her routinely in his efforts to get her to stop attending church and serving God. This had been going on for a few years before we met her. She refused to leave him and she refused to call the law against him.

When we followed the Lord to another place we lost touch with that sister and her very sad situation. Some years later we had occasion to return to that community and my wife recontacted her. After more than 25 years of marriage in that very abusive situation, the sister's trust in God had been rewarded. Her husband had gone to church and repented turning his life over to God. He became the hardest worker and best witness for God in the assembly.

GOOD TESTIMONY. She did NOT leave him, and she did NOT call the law against him.
IF she did, that would have been the devil's victory and not God's

JUST LIKE ABIGAIL in GOD'S WORD - she did NOT leave her terrible husband , but served him faithfully, she being righteous herself, obeying God;
One day, GOD DELIVERED HER, this time it was not by her husband becoming better/saved/healed/getting right, but DYING.
And her GOOD and GODLY testimony stands worldwide as an example for all men and woman on earth, and for the angels in heaven forever, by God's Design ! HALLELUYAH !

 

[DNB]

What have I done wrong in your eyes? I have told the truth as I have understood it. Would you feel better about me if I described with my answers something closer to the answers you have or see?

You want to talk about the delusions, irreverence and self-righteousness of people. To what end? Just to speculate or to pursue men's proposed solutions or what? Has not God addressed all of these things and provided the means for any really sincere person move to a better place?

You say I have skirted issues and have not been giving you a straight answer. I thought I was bending over backward to let you know my answers. My answers may indeed miss God's answers, but is He not working to correct that? Are you doubting that He can? Or that He will? Or both?

...because, every time that I say people do not have an accurate perception of the way that God works, and thus, whether or not that He's actually working in their lives, you invariably come back and say that God has the power to do what they say that He is doing. You do this every time.
I am not contesting God's willingness to help a believer in every way possible, for either personal reasons, or especially to bring others to Christ.
I am against the self-righteous boasting and delusions that I constantly hear from these pseudo-pious Christians. Because clearly, there is absolutely no proof to the boasts that they're making.
This is my entire point, I don't want people to tell me that they have the Spirit, or how the have such a close relationship with God. That is exclusively for someone else to say about them, ....and only then, I may begin to entertain the notion that it's true.

 

[Dcopymope]

...because, every time that I say people do not have an accurate perception of the way that God works, and thus, whether or not that He's actually working in their lives, you invariably come back and say that God has the power to do what they say that He is doing. You do this every time.
I am not contesting God's willingness to help a believer in every way possible, for personal reasons, or especially to bring others to Christ.
I am against the self-righteous boasting and delusions that I constantly hear from these pseudo-pious Christians. Because clearly, there is absolutely no proof to the boasts that they're making.
This is my entire point, I don't want people to tell me that they have the Spirit, or how the have such a close relationship with God. That is exclusively for someone else to say about them, ....and only then, I may begin to entertain the notion that it's true.

The boaster: "I have a close relationship with God and have the seal of the spirit."

The unbeliever: ........."M'kay, Whatever that means".

 

[Paul Christensen]

'you refuse to see' may be so, or not...
If the Father reveals it to them, yes. The truth is THEN, and not before THEN, known to them, or at least shown to them.
If the Father in heaven does not grant it, then they do not see it,
and most on earth never see it.

That could be true.

 

[amadeus]

...because, every time that I say people do not have an accurate perception of the way that God works, and thus, whether or not that He's actually working in their lives, you invariably come back and say that God has the power to do what they say that He is doing. You do this every time.
I am not contesting God's willingness to help a believer in every way possible, for either personal reasons, or especially to bring others to Christ.
I am against the self-righteous boasting and delusions that I constantly hear from these pseudo-pious Christians. Because clearly, there is absolutely no proof to the boasts that they're making.
This is my entire point, I don't want people to tell me that they have the Spirit, or how the have such a close relationship with God. That is exclusively for someone else to say about them, ....and only then, I may begin to entertain the notion that it's true.

I understand now your problem with it. If you are not clearly hearing from God yourself as to whether they are or are not of Him but you disbelieve them, my suggestion would be to stop attacking for if you are wrong it puts you in a bad place with God. Of course you believe you are right. According to Solomon we all believe that.

You say you don't want to hear them say it, so then on this forum you do have the option of using the ignore feature. For me, if you consider me one of them, I am not going to stop speaking my piece when I believe that God wants me to speak it. If you don't want to hear what I have to say, put me on ignore too. Of course the choice in this is yours. Any results, good or not, from your choices are between you and God. I would also suggest praying carefully with God on this before deciding, but that is also your choice.

 

[Paul Christensen]

And of course that is the lie. I DO believe 1 Cor 14.

Great!

 

[Enoch111]

And this, by both theory, statistics and practice, we don't witness as being a common endowment, throughout the history of the Church, and presently, ...especially on this forum, including myself.

So now you have become the arbiter of who possesses the Holy Spirit and who does not! Why don't you leave it with God instead of sitting in judgment in the place of God. And if you do not believe you have the Spirit then simply obey the Gospel.