Is my salvation based upon my knowledge of the Trinity?

[OzSpen]

What,,, he doesn't believe in the magical escape pod for those who have the holy spirit????

The maddnesss!!!!!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

However, Jane, is this the Jesus Christ who was born of a union of 2 human beings (no virgin birth), didn't die for the sins of the world, and whose resurrection was that of a phantom/apparition?

You're mixing up two things here:

1) What is True.
2) What is required for salvation.

A man's salvation is not dependent on his ability to answer a theology quiz, but rather his devotion to God.

 

[OzSpen]

You're mixing up two things here:

1) What is True.
2) What is required for salvation.

A man's salvation is not dependent on his ability to answer a theology quiz, but rather his devotion to God.

Is a person's salvation based on what is true?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Is a person's salvation based on what is true?

A person's salvation comes from Christ.

Not their ability to pass a theology test.

 

[Joseph77]

As the Creator Says Clearly In His Word:

Whoever Trusts Jesus Has Life.

 

[101G]

That was not relevant, and you are trying to dodge the plain presentation of the Trinity. Of course Christ comes to indwell and be with believers as much as does the Holy Spirit. Indeed the apostle John says (in his epistle) that God (the Godhead) dwells within the believer. But John also this (1 John 5:7 KJV):

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Now do you or do you not believe what is recorded in Scripture? Or will you continue to twist verses to fit your false theology?

(smile), lol. this means you cannot answer the question that was put to you?... and for the verse being relevant, well you step right in it. listen to what you said, "Of course Christ comes to indwell and be with believers as much as does the Holy Spirit". but is not Christ in heaven sitting on the throne? so are you saying that all three of your person are here on earth? well now you have a problem, you said Christ is is here indwell the believer, so he is not on the throne in heaven? yes or no.

looking to hear your answer.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

Let us make it very clear, if the Son is dwelling in the believers here on earth, and in the heaven sitting on the throne. how is he doing that. now if one want to say well the Lord Jesus is dwelling in us by the Holy spirit, well that want work for many say he is a Separate and "DISTINCT" person all by himself. so we are asking how is the Son, (person #2), who is sitting in heaven is on the earth at the same time, and the Holy Spirit is a separate Person to.

I believe this is a liginamite question to ask.

PICJAG.

 

[Joseph77]

Could be.

2000 years ago, they didn't ask. (or did they?) ....

See in ACTS, EPHESIANS, GALATIANS, PHILIPPIANS, COLOSSIANS
to see
how they lived so different from ... unregenerate sinners, and from canral believers....

 

[Enoch111]

Enoch, That's not how the MSS closer to the time of Jesus read: 'For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree' (1 John 5:7-8 ESV).

Sorry Oz but the ESV, (along with all the modern versions) has FALSIFIED 1 John 5:6-8. I will bring you more details later, but for the present that one verse should be taken as genuine Scripture.

But if you have any doubts whatsoever check the Latin Vulgate which was produced in the 4th century. Thus it is also present in the Douay-Rheims translation.

 

[OzSpen]

You're mixing up two things here:

1) What is True.
2) What is required for salvation.

A man's salvation is not dependent on his ability to answer a theology quiz, but rather his devotion to God.

Which God?

 

[Joseph77]

Which God?

Oy Gevalt ! There's so many !

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Which God?

OzSpen, there are some folks out there that proclaim salvation is dependent on man's ability to get a passing grade on some theology test. These proclaimers won't phrase it that way, but that's ultimately what their argument comes down to.

While I respect those individuals right to believe whatever it is they do, I could not disagree more and do so with a fiery passion. Christ saves. That simple.

 

[tigger 2]

But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. - ASV.

"Give ear, O Jehovah, unto my prayer .... thou art great and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone." - Ps. 86:6, 10, ASV.

"Father, .... this is eternal life: for men to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent." - John 17:1, 3, TEV.

And, conversely, the Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus will appear from heaven

"with a flaming fire, to punish those who do not know God .... They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction." - 2 Thess. 1:7-9, TEV.

And again in the OT we see the same thing,

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. - 1 Chronicles 28:9, ASV.

"Seek ye Jehovah, all ye meek of the earth ... it may be that ye will be hid in the day of Jehovah's anger." - Zeph 2:3, ASV.

Psalm 83:18 King James Version (KJV):

18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

Scripture tells we must know the only true God and his Son Jesus Christ.

Do we truly know God if we 'know' him to be two or three different persons? If we know him by a false name ('LORD')? His name, according to the KJV, is 'Jehovah,' but 'Yehowah,' and 'Yahweh' are honest transliterations of his name (YHWH), 'LORD' is not!

 

[friend of]

My people perish for lack of knowledge

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry Oz but the ESV, (along with all the modern versions) has FALSIFIED 1 John 5:6-8. I will bring you more details later, but for the present that one verse should be taken as genuine Scripture.

But if you have any doubts whatsoever check the Latin Vulgate which was produced in the 4th century. Thus it is also present in the Douay-Rheims translation.

What does 1 John 5:6-8 state in the earliest Greek MSS?

One of the earliest Greek MSS is Codex Sinaiticus. It dates to ca. middle of fourth century.

'Jerome’s complete Hebrew- and Greek-based Latin Bible was completed in 405'. His translation of the Gospels dates to the late 4th century. So, the Latin Vulgate dates after the Greek Sinaiticus.


For 1 John 5:6-8 in Sinaiticus, it reads:

6 ουτοϲ εϲτιν ο ελθων δια υδατοϲ

και αιματοϲ και πνϲ ιϲ χϲ ουκ εν

τω ϋδατι μονον αλλ εν τω ϋδατι

και τω αιματι και το πνα εϲτιν το

μαρτυρουν οτι το πνα εϲτιν η αλη

7 θεια οτι οι τρειϲ ει ϲιν οι μαρτυρου
8 τεϲ το πνα και το ϋδωρ και το αιμα και οι τρειϲ ειϲ το ειϲιν.

[Note 'c' is sigma as there is no 'c' in the Greek alphabet. In today's Greek text sigma is 's' at the end of words.

The English translation is:

6 This is he that came through water and blood, Jesus Christ: not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood; and it is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

7 For they that testify are three,

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.

Oz

 

[APAK]

@OzSpen.. You have the earlier translation of 1 John 5-8 Oz, and I agree with it as well...The Latin Vulgate and DR as expected deliberately corrupted and mistranslated many areas of scripture including this area of scripture..the DR version does have many 'tricky' translations right though as some others....I was a little hard on you today mate ..sorry for that...Oz

 

[OzSpen]

PART VIII

THE ARGUMENT FROM ITS PRESERVATION AMONG BIBLE BELIEVERS. The Lord Jesus Christ indicated that His Words would be preserved through the process of the Great Commission, as the Scriptures were received, kept, taught, and transmitted to the next generation by Bible-believing churches (Matt. 28:18-20). This is guaranteed by the Christ’s power and His continual presence among the churches. When we look at church history in this light, the issue of 1 John 5:7 becomes plainer. Consider the versional evidence in favor of this verse:

1 John 5:7 is found in some of the Syriac manuscripts, though not the majority (The New Testament Translated from the Syriac Peshito Version, James Murdock, 1852, note on 1 John 5:7). 1 John 5:7 was printed in Gutbier’s Lexicon Syricum concerdatntiale omnes N.T. Syriaci (1664); it is obvious, therefore, that Gutbier found this important verse in Syriac manuscripts with which he was familiar. It was also printed by E. Hutter in 1599 in the Syriac portion of his polyglot (e-mail from Michael Maynard, May 11, 2005).

1 John 5:7 was in the old Latin that was used by Bible believers in Europe. Dr. Frederick Nolan (1784-1864) spent 28 years tracing the history of the European Italic or Old Latin version and in 1815 published his findings in An Inquiry into the Integrity of the Greek Vulgate or Received Text of the New Testament, in which the Greek manuscripts are newly classed, the integrity of the Authorised Text vindicated, and the various readings traced to their origin. Nolan believed that the old Latin got its name Italic from the churches in northern Italy that remained separated from Rome and that this text was maintained by separatist Waldensian believers. He concluded that 1 John 5:7 “was adopted in the version which prevailed in the Latin Church, previously to the introduction of the modern Vulgate” (Nolan,Integrity of the Greek Vulgate, pp. xvii, xviii).

1 John 5:7 was in the Latin “vulgate” that had a wide influence throughout the Dark Ages. The Catholic Church used it, but so did many non-Catholic believers. Bruce Metzger observes that the oldest manuscript of the Jerome vulgate, Codex Fuldensis (A.D. 546), does not include the Johannine Comma; but this fact is overwhelmed by other evidence. For one, we have seen that Jerome himself believed 1 John 5:7 was genuine Scripture and testified that heretics had removed it from some manuscripts. Second, 1 John 5:7 is found in the vast majority of extant Latin manuscripts, 49 out of every 50, according to Scrivener. Third, 1 John 5:7 is found in many of the most ancient Latin manuscripts, such as Ulmensis (c. 850) and Toletanus (988). The Johannine Comma is found “in twenty-nine of the fairest, oldest, and most correct of extant Vulgate manuscripts” (Maynard, A History of the Debate over 1 John 5:7-8, p. 343).

1 John 5:7 was in the Romaunt or Occitan New Testaments used by the Waldenses dating back to the 12th century. This was the language of the troubadours and men of letters in the Dark Ages. It was the predecessor of French and Italian. The Romaunt Bibles were small and plain, designed for missionary work. “This version was widely spread in the south of France, and in the cities of Lombardy. It was in common use among the Waldenses of Piedmont, and it was no small part, doubtless, of the testimony borne to truth by these mountaineers to preserve and circulate it” (J. Wylie, History of Protestantism, vol. 1, chapter 7, “The Waldenses”). I examined the copy of the Romaunt New Testament located at the Cambridge University Library in April 2005, but it does not have the Epistles of John. The following is from Justin Savino , May 11, 2005: “The Zurich codex I have that is similar to the Dublin a Grenoble (or so I am told) does have 1 John 5:7. The direct quote is "Car trey son que donan testimoni al cel lo payre e lo filh e lo sant spirit e aquesti trey son un." Translated, "but three are there that five testimony in heaven the father and the son and the holy spirit and these three are one.”

1 John 5:7 was in the Tepl, which is an old German translation used by Waldenses from the 14th through the 15 centuries. Comba, who wrote a history of the Waldenses, said the Tepl was a Waldensian translation (Comba, Waldenses of Italy, pp. 190-192). Comba sites two authorities, Ludwig Keller and Hermann Haupt, for this information. Comba also states that the Tepl was based on old Latin manuscripts rather than the Jerome vulgate. The Tepl’s size identifies it with the small Bibles carried by the Waldensian evangelists on their dangerous journeys across Europe.

1 John 5:7 was in the old French translations. A translation of the whole Bible in French first appeared in the 13th century, and “a much used version of the whole Bible was published in 1487 by Jean de Rely” (Norlie,The Translated Bible, p. 52).

1 John 5:7 was in the old German translations, which first appeared in the 13th and 14th centuries. A complete German Bible appeared before the invention of printing (Norlie, p. 53). There were at least 12 different editions of the Bible into German before the discovery of America in 1492. The first printed German Bible appeared in 1466 (Price, The Ancestry of Our English Bible, 1934, p. 243). These were Latin-based versions.

1 John 5:7 was in the Spanish Bibles, beginning with the one printed in Valencia in 1478 by Bonifacio Ferrer (M’Crie, History of the Reformation in Spain, p. 191).

It is probable that 1 John 5:7 was in the Bohemian or Czech Bible printed by the Brethren in 1488.

1 John 5:7 stood uncontested in English Bibles for 500 years. The first English New Testament, completed by John Wycliffe and his co-laborers in 1380, contained this verse. The Johannine Comma was in the Tyndale New Testament of 1526, the Coverdale of 1535, the Matthew’s of 1537, the Great Bible of 1539, the Geneva of 1557, the Bishops of 1568, and the King James Bible of 1611. The first English Bible of any importance to remove the verse was the Revised Version of 1881 and the first English Bible which had any chance of superseding the KJV to remove 1 John 5:7 was the New International Version of 1973 and this version has still not taken over the sales of the King James Bible. From the time of the British Empire to the present, English has been a prominent world language. It is the international language in these modern times, the language of commerce, aviation, and science. The witness of the English Bible, therefore, has great significance.

Thus we see that the Trinitarian statement of 1 John 5:7 comes down to us by the hands of Bible believers and churches that held the apostolic faith at great cost through the Dark Ages, through the Protestant Reformation, up to our very day. In light of Matthew 28:19-20, this is a strong witness to its apostolic authenticity.

Why are you bombarding us with post after post of your indoctrination. I've had enough of this forum that allows such to happen.

 

[OzSpen]

OzSpen, there are some folks out there that proclaim salvation is dependent on man's ability to get a passing grade on some theology test. These proclaimers won't phrase it that way, but that's ultimately what their argument comes down to.

While I respect those individuals right to believe whatever it is they do, I could not disagree more and do so with a fiery passion. Christ saves. That simple.

Jane,

Keep up your good work. You are an Acts 17:11 Christian.

Oz

 

[101G]

it's sad when one gets to the end and find out, they was in ERROR. Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth".

PICJAG.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Jane,

Keep up your good work. You are an Acts 17:11 Christian.

Oz

You stay on the right path too
Don't fall into any of those traps with people adding requirements to get into Heaven (including theology tests)