Are Protestants "saved? "

[FollowHim]

You are using experience as your guide and not scripture? I am just asking so I can understand what your trying to say,

Did I misunderstand you? Did you not say that after we are saved or purified, we must continue to remain pure? please help me understand so I do not misinterpret you.

Is salvation based on Grace through faith alone? Yes?

Is faith a condition? Depends on what you mean by condition.

If someone comes and offers everyone a gift and some take it, and some do not. Did the person who took the gift earn the gift? Or was it freely given, freely received?

I now see how salvation is posed as a free gift.

17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Rev 22

Salvation is not free.

39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Matt 10:39

It costs our lives.

25 The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.
John 12:25-26

The difficulty talking about a free gift without condition, is this is not true. To receive a free gift you have to believe it actually exists and accept it. And the giving is available to all, free, but the gift itself can have conditions associated with it.

God was extremely careful to show walking His ways is a narrow path, it is difficult to find, and only a few make it through, but it is easy if one enters by the gate, and listens and follows Jesus.

Easy believism ignores all this, and says just believing you are saved is enough.
We must believe to be saved, believe in Jesus and everything this implies.

So it appears you have not answered the point belief is needed to be saved.
It is avoided by saying salvation is a free gift, except Jesus says otherwise.

 

[Brakelite]

Oh I do, you want to make all men slaves to the law, its al you do, there was a reason why that other church is called. " the mother of al harlots". she has lots of children always trying to be prettier than mum.

I expected a response like that. So you disagree that we need to repent as a condition of salvation?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This kind of discussion can be summarised with Jesus's comment
"Go now and leave your life of sin" John 8:11

8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:8-11

The idea of never falling, is such an aspiration of perfect walking, here Peter putting forward to believers.
Paul talks of perfection

Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace.
2 Cor 13:11

18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.'
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
20 These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'
Matt 15:18-20

A heart that desires walking the way of love is deeply wounded by unclean and wrong behaviour.

But this walk is impossible unless driven by Jesus and His ways.
Our walk in Christ always starts with the aspiration we will end with Christ.
For some this cannot be true, because the promise must always finish with Christ or the walk is false.

Jesus disagrees, and warns us that the goal is where we must be, even though the start can be good, it could fail.
For some this admitting failure is possible, denies Jesus and His power, except it is Jesus who told us this.

The parable of the seed and the sower is about who we are dictates the outcome, if we are not good soil, then little wonder things go ary.

So I am correct in thinking you believe we are originally washed by the blood of Christ, But after this, We must cleanse ourselves by fleeing a life of sin, and keeping ourselves pure?

and if ot. How can you say what you just said, and not think this? How are we purified after we are saved?

 

[Joseph77]

But I get it. It is very difficult and humbling for any Catholic to admit it even see this.

Any human.
Turning to the Creator, to seek His Kingdom, is unusual, rare, uncommon, unheard of for multitutdes religious and not,
away from their own life,
away from their own religion, or lack of religion, either one -
their own life is to start with totally sinful, outside of Christ, with the sons of disobedience worldwide under the prince of the power of the air.

 

[Brakelite]

If this is true I must ask like I asked yesterday, has this person who is coming to God with the intention of continuing to practicing evil and sin actually repented?

I ask, because in my view, we do not come to true saving faith until we have first come to true repentance,

Of course. Which makes repentance a condition of salvation. It is self delusion, and at great danger of eternal loss, that anyone promotes any idea of unconditional salvation. Such a concept exists only in the mind.

 

[Joseph77]

Really, you really wanna go there?

To expose or reveal the source, sure.
But I doubt you want that.

 

[Joseph77]

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power."

 

[Joseph77]

I have seen this fight many times and it always ends the same. Statements are made personally, and good sharing becomes conflict.

Stick with Scripture.
"good sharing" is not happening when someone presents false statements opposed to Scripture, even if trying to appear 'right' ...

Like this, for instance (or for example) :
===================================
QUOTE="Joseph77, post: 725656, member: 8613"]"they have no answer"
Yet God's Word Does.

The fallen world "loves its own", and hates Jesus , and is opposed to all of Jesus' Followers - to anyone who loves and lives for the truth.
============================
QUOTE=
"Paul Christensen, post: 712339, member: 8565"]Isn't it interesting that those people who say that they don't believe in discrimination, and preach tolerance of all faiths and religions, when a Bible-believing Christian gets up and shares the true gospel of Christ, they say that he is being intolerant of other faiths and religions. When they Christian replies and says. "You people believe in total tolerance, so why are you intolerant of my Bible-believing faith?" they have no answer.
[/QUOTE
=========================
[/QUOTE

 

[Joseph77]

Like this, for instance:

Some times I think some forget the requirement of the law was perfection

Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

confirmed by Paul in Gal 3

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

This is Gods definition of good, of being pure, any thing which falls short places us under the curse of this law, which is death,

as James said, if we keep the entire law our whole lives and yet break one point, we are still cursed by the law as a sinner, and must suffer the same fate as murderers, isolators and adulterers. I must wonder if some do not comprehend or like this, and, maybe this is why they fight so hard to reject it, and say we love our sin and just want to excuse it, when in reality we just acknowledge our sin and see our true self as it relates to the glory of God,

which of course forces us to look to our hope in faith. eternal life, which God promised before time began, or we would lose hope and lose faith

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I now see how salvation is posed as a free gift.

17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Rev 22

Salvation is not free.

Your right, its not free. Jesus paid for it with his life on the cross.

But I sadly know this is not what youmeant

39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Matt 10:39

It costs our lives.

No, It caused Christ his life.

When I repent like the tax collector. I am admitting to God I have failed. I am lost. I have no hope, and I am begging God for his mercy. In doing this, I have basically given up my freedom and my life. and given it to God

Remember, God said he went home justified. Not the do gooder religious person who thought he cleansed himself and made himself pure.

25 The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.
John 12:25-26

Yes, But did not the tax collector do this? has not everyone who has truly repented and Given their life and eternity To God for his safe keeping and his power to become children of God. And his strength to sanctify us in spirit and in truth so we are empowered to do these things?

And will not the man who loves his life (a life of sin) never come to Christ fully? Maybe in mere belief as in James, but not fully trusting God with a living faith that saves?

Again, Did Not God promise that he who began a good work will continue it? or not?

The difficulty talking about a free gift without condition, is this is not true. To receive a free gift you have to believe it actually exists and accept it. And the giving is available to all, free, but the gift itself can have conditions associated with it.

so basically, You offer your children a gift, yet tell them they must meet certain conditions to keep this gift. is it not really a downpayment for work that will be done, Or as some call it a bribe to try to get someone to do things your way?

Free means free, if conditions are placed in it, Is it really free?

God was extremely careful to show walking His ways is a narrow path, it is difficult to find, and only a few make it through, but it is easy if one enters by the gate, and listens and follows Jesus.

Your right, And the most common gospel of all religions on earth is the fact that good works are what are required if you are to get into heaven. The thought of salvation being paid completely by the God of this universe is a laughable offense. And the would say those who even think this are easy believers.

Easy believism ignores all this, and says just believing you are saved is enough.

How Ironic, It is like I foresaw this.

I am not an easy believer, It takes more than belief, it takes a living faith. No one is saved based on mere belief james 2 along with the book of Jude)

We must believe to be saved, believe in Jesus and everything this implies.

So it appears you have not answered the point belief is needed to be saved.
It is avoided by saying salvation is a free gift, except Jesus says otherwise.

Jesus says otherwise?

The penalty of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life.

Jesus said as moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness so to that the son of man must be lifted up that whoever believes in him will never die, but has eternal life.

If seems like maybe you do not understand this life Jesus speaks of is our salvation. We are saved from death.

 

[FollowHim]

wadr imo one would have to first have labelled the behavior, and i suggest that neither Yah nor little kids spend much time on that at all, Who told you that you were naked? and even Understand why the publicans and prostitutes are beating you in, iow "deeply wounded" would not be going and eating with publicans and sinners at all prolly, would it? "Deeply wounded" is Eve imo, wadr. Deeply wounded is Right Eye, and a clean outside of a cup even. Although i do get the emotion, dont get me wrong

You made a good point. I should have clarified a believer who falls into sin, would be deeply wounded and upset about their own behaviour.
I am commenting on Pauls statement

18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Rom 6:18

I know of believers who have come to faith and get very unhappy at their struggles with their own behaviour.
This is why we need patience and perseverance in our walk.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course. Which makes repentance a condition of salvation. It is self delusion, and at great danger of eternal loss, that anyone promotes any idea of unconditional salvation. Such a concept exists only in the mind.

if a person has not repented. how can they have true saving faith?

anyway, I asked about whether a group of people you used in your post who decided they would continue to live in sin (Ie have their cake and eat it too) have really repented.

Has the person who thinks he will continue to live a worldly life of sin actually repented just because he said some sinners prayer or claims he has faith in God? What so you?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

To expose or reveal the source, sure.
But I doubt you want that.

Maybe you misunderstood my question,

I asked if you really wanted to continue with the line of reasoning that I was taught by a woman,

so I ask again, Do you really want to go there?

 

[Joseph77]

Maybe you misunderstood my question,

I asked if you really wanted to continue with the line of reasoning that I was taught by a woman,

so I ask again, Do you really want to go there?

Did you ever say otherwise? Did a man teach you ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Like this, for instance:

Like this?

Like what? All the scripture I posted or pointed to?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did you ever say otherwise? Did a man teach you ?

do I need to report you again?

because there was no question, it was an accusation.

once again, do you really want to go there

does who taught me really have a bearing on anything we are discussing,

are we not discussing what I believe, and what you believe.

 

[bbyrd009]

You made a good point. I should have clarified a believer who falls into sin, would be deeply wounded and upset about their own behaviour.
I am commenting on Pauls statement

18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Rom 6:18

I know of believers who have come to faith and get very unhappy at their struggles with their own behaviour.
This is why we need patience and perseverance in our walk.

i suspect that many of our struggles with our own behavior are cleaning the outside of the cup prolly, and not deemed "venal" sins for nothing? Its just that i see little kids "sinning" all the time, right, why do they get a pass iow?

These believers who "fall into sin," see, imo they hardly ever come to that perspective bc someone else was hurt or offended, right, those they usually vehemently defend, but rather they get "deeply Eved and offended" and whatnot over some legalistic yack, bc they smoke or whatever maybe, stuff like that?

i mean dont get me wrong, you make a good point also imo

 

[FollowHim]

Your right, its not free. Jesus paid for it with his life on the cross.

But I sadly know this is not what youmeant


No, It caused Christ his life.

When I repent like the tax collector. I am admitting to God I have failed. I am lost. I have no hope, and I am begging God for his mercy. In doing this, I have basically given up my freedom and my life. and given it to God

Remember, God said he went home justified. Not the do gooder religious person who thought he cleansed himself and made himself pure.


Yes, But did not the tax collector do this? has not everyone who has truly repented and Given their life and eternity To God for his safe keeping and his power to become children of God. And his strength to sanctify us in spirit and in truth so we are empowered to do these things?

And will not the man who loves his life (a life of sin) never come to Christ fully? Maybe in mere belief as in James, but not fully trusting God with a living faith that saves?

Again, Did Not God promise that he who began a good work will continue it? or not?


so basically, You offer your children a gift, yet tell them they must meet certain conditions to keep this gift. is it not really a downpayment for work that will be done, Or as some call it a bribe to try to get someone to do things your way?

Free means free, if conditions are placed in it, Is it really free?



Your right, And the most common gospel of all religions on earth is the fact that good works are what are required if you are to get into heaven. The thought of salvation being paid completely by the God of this universe is a laughable offense. And the would say those who even think this are easy believers.


How Ironic, It is like I foresaw this.

I am not an easy believer, It takes more than belief, it takes a living faith. No one is saved based on mere belief james 2 along with the book of Jude)




Jesus says otherwise?

The penalty of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life.

Jesus said as moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness so to that the son of man must be lifted up that whoever believes in him will never die, but has eternal life.

If seems like maybe you do not understand this life Jesus speaks of is our salvation. We are saved from death.

You still have not answered are we saved because of belief.
So you have a faith that is outside scripture, and involves a free offer of salvation, which is accepted without belief.
But accepting something is a condition of the gift taking effect this means it is earnt in this language of conditionality.

If everyone gets the gift without accepting it, universalism, then that is unconditional.

Free prize draws require the claiment to produce a ticket to show they have a right to the prize.
I see your problem, but if you believe in the lake of fire and judgement, this has to be based upon something ie a condition.

In a very real sense we did not earn Christ's love and sacrifice, He gave it freely, but faith was His condition.
And linked as part of this faith is obedience and love.

Paul put the conditional nature of salvation even more clearly

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Rom 10:9-10

Paul is talking about confession in a deeper sense as well, as walking in the ways of Jesus, following His example.
I know those wounded by a lifetime of legalism, any rules or issues around rejection cause panic and depression.

In some ways this is a problem of theology and ideas, as opposed to knowing Jesus and the cross. Jesus's love is overwhelming, and the causes of sin our aloneness and bitterness over hurt. Remove the aloneness and bitterness, and His love heals and changes us. But for those with a closed heart trying hard to be good, are undermined by their own position and state.

I have a friend who is addicted to dominance, in every conversation and interaction. He believes in Jesus, but to a limit. He is totally unaware that I do not need dominating, or being put down, or being seen as a threat. I am not sure he will ever come out of this, but it dominates everything, and he wonders why people do not connect.

In Jesus we have to go beyond ideas into who and what we really are, and in need of Him.

So I feel the mind that desires to turn things around to their model of the world, except I know Jesus and His gospel. You cannot change this mountain or His words, only humble oneself and bow the knee and learn His ways. God bless you

 

[Philip James]

What of those churches? Irrelevant?

Dear Brakelite,

I have never suggested that only the Church in Rome, or those in full communion with it are in the apostolic community.

To which particular church, founded by an apostle (or one with apostolic authority) are you a member?

From whom have you received the Cup of the New Covenant?

Peace be with you!

 

[Joseph77]

do I need to report you again?

because there was no question, it was an accusation.

once again, do you really want to go there

does who taught me really have a bearing on anything we are discussing,

are we not discussing what I believe, and what you believe.

A lot of what you believe, or a little of it, that I requested you to provide Scripture to show, you did not. Still, you have not.
That is the real issue.

Who taught you ? (man or woman does not matter)
The school you learned in or from, has an effect on you.


btw, I did not even think of reporting your false witnessing, I thought you would learn better by discussion here on the forum. Scripturally, that is.

From Scripture.

Provide Scripture.