What Changed?

[JunChosen]

Addressing the OP only,

What Changed?
Nothing has changed! Looking at the crucifixion scene with spiritual eyes, what do we see? After all, this thread is in the spirituality forum? We know the Bible declares Jesus spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak (Mark 4:11-12).

In this crucifixion picture, we see three persons on their own individual cross. Also, we can
see with our spiritual eyes, Jesus as representing God, the good thief as the totality of all the saved, and the bad thief as representing the unsaved.

Right before our eyes, we see the miracle of salvation as God, in the person of the Lord Jesus, declares: "Today you shall be with me in Paradise."

Indeed, salvation belongs to God alone (John 6:44; Ezekiel 36).
As also declared in John 15:16:
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain..."
Underlined words for emphasis.

I beIieve the above is how we are to understand the Crucifixion.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I originally heard that there were actually 4 malefactors at the crucifixion, besides Christ. I do believe that there are paintings depicting this also.
Therefore, I assume that you are hypothesizing that there were two robbers, plus two other law-breakers, that were crucified with Christ, totaling 4 criminals. And that, the thieves and 1 criminal mocked Jesus, while one of the other non-thief, believed in him?
It could be argued, because the Gospels do differentiate as far as denoting the crimes are concerned, ...and of course, the contradictory remarks.
Not sure where I stand definitively on this, probably more so to a total of just 2 malefactors?

hmm, This is the first I have heard of this, Interesting

 

[Giuliano]

Would not be surprised at all. You and I know that even within the Jewish sects that beliefs of spiritual things differed. So it would depend on who Yeshua was talking to. Their understanding of heaven, hell, angels, devil, demons, the battle between good and evil....that does not come from the Hebrew Bible. Most of that comes from their time with the Persians. Some it comes from the Essenes. Because of the Persians some of them went back to Daniel and took it a little more seriously. But not all, some Jews did not believe in the resurrection during Christ ministry.

The focus of Moses was to keep people alert to what they were doing in the here and now. People can waste a lot of energy and time trying to sort out the future while ignoring what they're doing now.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Do what is right now, and trust God that things will turn out right. Why worry about the future? If you have the right ideas about God, you will have faith that if you are doing your best, you have nothing to worry about.

Over time different ideas about the afterlife did arise among the Jews. Some were obviously wrong since they couldn't all be right. The way the Talmud is written can be confusing too since different views are presented without telling the reader which are right and which aren't. The key to understanding that is finding the right rabbis in the Talmud. If you pick the wrong ones, you're the blind following the blind.

When Jesus told that story, I'd say he was giving his approval to the idea of Paradise and Gehinnom being next to each other. He was saying that idea was right and conflicting ones weren't.

 

[Grailhunter]

The focus of Moses was to keep people alert to what they were doing in the here and now. People can waste a lot of energy and time trying to sort out the future while ignoring what they're doing now.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Do what is right now, and trust God that things will turn out right. Why worry about the future? If you have the right ideas about God, you will have faith that if you are doing your best, you have nothing to worry about.

Over time different ideas about the afterlife did arise among the Jews. Some were obviously wrong since they couldn't all be right. The way the Talmud is written can be confusing too since different views are presented without telling the reader which are right and which aren't. The key to understanding that is finding the right rabbis in the Talmud. If you pick the wrong ones, you're the blind following the blind.

When Jesus told that story, I'd say he was giving his approval to the idea of Paradise and Gehinnom being next to each other. He was saying that idea was right and conflicting ones weren't.

You have a romantic view of the Hebrew Bible….it takes a selective eye.

The history of the Talmud is interesting but there is a reason why a portion of it is called the Babylonian Talmud. There is a reason why scholars call the ancient religion of the Jews a “this world” religion. Very little understanding of the spiritual, their rewards and punishments mostly occurring in the physical plane. Speculations by the writers of the Talmud and Jewish Mysticism came from exposure to other religions that had strong spiritual examples. Maybe they did not want to be out done? Not sure. Not that the Jewish religion became those “other” religions, but the spiritual concepts of those religions motivated them to go back and reassess the Hebrew Bible from a spiritual perspective.

As far as God the Father or God the Son conversing with a primitive people, it is not a lie to use the concepts and visualizations that they understand. What is the alternative? The facts of reality….the facts of the spiritual can easily go over the heads of even modern people. A discussion about facts, using terms and visualizations that they had never heard of before, never thought of before, and or the reality of things that are uncomprehendible serves no purpose.

 

[Giuliano]

You have a romantic view of the Hebrew Bible….it takes a selective eye.

And I think you may have a romantic view of Christianity and the modern world.

 

[Grailhunter]

And I think you may have a romantic view of Christianity and the modern world.

For certain!

 

[Helen]

Hello @Nancy

I cannot believe I have never seen this thread!! You did not show up in my ALERTS , a New Thread did not show up. You posts quite a few times on this thread, as have other that I "Follow"...yet not one showed up in my Alerts!!

So I wonder how many more posts and threads I have been missing!!

“Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Matthew 27:44)
“Even those who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Mark 15:32)
What was it that changed the mind of the thief who was to see Jesus in Paradise that day? He goes from mocking Jesus to calling Him a King, really. It just hit me strangely, and has me wondering...

I have nothing new to add after reading all these posts here .

I would just say that- 44 " No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

None of us are saved, converted, renewed without the Holy Spirit touching our eyes and giving us eyes to see and ears to hear.
Now what cause God to touch this man and not the other one also, we can only guess.
One must have had a heart that was softer toward God...and the other one had hardened his heart.

I see no other reason except it was all a 'God thing'.

Glad that I finally found this thread which has been hidden from me!! x

 

[FollowHim]

Thank you for the replies!
It still seems an awfully quick conversion; from calling Christ names and mocking Him to suddenly calling Him King, and seemingly realizing Jesus was the messiah. But then, nothing is impossible for God

I can walk into the room, read peoples clothes, their age, the look on their faces and see many things from the experience of such people in different settings I have been in. Now it appears that I instantly understood something about the people, but actually I am reading the signs of where they have come from and what they are likely to be like.

So the thief on the cross is commenting about people and their normal behaviour and sees Jesus as something different. He well might have heard him preach and know that he was offering something unusual. Certainly his words appear to recognise something that others did not see and therefore to have consequences that he desired even though he was a thief being executed, he wanted something more. On the cross for 8 hours with nothing else to do, makes one think a little. So when we talk about a quick conversion this is not putting the whole story.
7 days earlier Jesus came in to Jerusalem as the Messiah who was going to deliver Jerusalem from the romans. The crowd had gathered and praises rang out. This is not the kind of thing you forget easily, the expectation must have been high. Judas was looking forward to the fulfilment of victory, except Jesus did not take this course, but yet more behave well, seek the Kingdom of God and you will see eternity, not bring the Kingdom to Jerusalem and get rid of the tyrants. Who did the jews cry to be released? Barrabas, the rebel. What happened 30 years later, a full rebellion and the final fall of Jerusalem.

And into this mix of prophecy, theology, tyranny stood Jesus, a lamb to the slaughter. So many were wondering who was this man, who healed the sick yet avoided the authorities, who the authorities were terrified of, yet seemed so passive and accepting. Why try him at night, execute him in the morning, if he was not a threat. The King of the Jews, a very strange title. And his mother and disciples looking on, not like the normal bunch.
What if he was the messiah, what if his words were true, what if this was his promised freedom he spoke so much of?

Why did the teachers of the law mock him so? What had he done, other than good things and say good words? What if?

 

[Nancy]

I can walk into the room, read peoples clothes, their age, the look on their faces and see many things from the experience of such people in different settings I have been in. Now it appears that I instantly understood something about the people, but actually I am reading the signs of where they have come from and what they are likely to be like.

So the thief on the cross is commenting about people and their normal behaviour and sees Jesus as something different. He well might have heard him preach and know that he was offering something unusual. Certainly his words appear to recognise something that others did not see and therefore to have consequences that he desired even though he was a thief being executed, he wanted something more. On the cross for 8 hours with nothing else to do, makes one think a little. So when we talk about a quick conversion this is not putting the whole story.
7 days earlier Jesus came in to Jerusalem as the Messiah who was going to deliver Jerusalem from the romans. The crowd had gathered and praises rang out. This is not the kind of thing you forget easily, the expectation must have been high. Judas was looking forward to the fulfilment of victory, except Jesus did not take this course, but yet more behave well, seek the Kingdom of God and you will see eternity, not bring the Kingdom to Jerusalem and get rid of the tyrants. Who did the jews cry to be released? Barrabas, the rebel. What happened 30 years later, a full rebellion and the final fall of Jerusalem.

And into this mix of prophecy, theology, tyranny stood Jesus, a lamb to the slaughter. So many were wondering who was this man, who healed the sick yet avoided the authorities, who the authorities were terrified of, yet seemed so passive and accepting. Why try him at night, execute him in the morning, if he was not a threat. The King of the Jews, a very strange title. And his mother and disciples looking on, not like the normal bunch.
What if he was the messiah, what if his words were true, what if this was his promised freedom he spoke so much of?

Why did the teachers of the law mock him so? What had he done, other than good things and say good words? What if?

Wonderful reply @FollowHim , ty.

" On the cross for 8 hours with nothing else to do, makes one think a little. So when we talk about a quick conversion this is not putting the whole story."

Guess we can toss the "quick conversion" in the trash, ha!
Many good points and, "what if" indeed!

 

[Nancy]

Hello @Nancy

I cannot believe I have never seen this thread!! You did not show up in my ALERTS , a New Thread did not show up. You posts quite a few times on this thread, as have other that I "Follow"...yet not one showed up in my Alerts!!

So I wonder how many more posts and threads I have been missing!!



I have nothing new to add after reading all these posts here .

I would just say that- 44 " No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

None of us are saved, converted, renewed without the Holy Spirit touching our eyes and giving us eyes to see and ears to hear.
Now what cause God to touch this man and not the other one also, we can only guess.
One must have had a heart that was softer toward God...and the other one had hardened his heart.

I see no other reason except it was all a 'God thing'.

Glad that I finally found this thread which has been hidden from me!! x

Glad you found it, the "alert" system on here is sorely lacking...
"One must have had a heart that was softer toward God...and the other one had hardened his heart." <---- I think you are right!
xo

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy,

You pose a very good question. One that I never considered. Thank you!

Doing some studying on the matter at hand it led me to another question: Matthew and Mark say that the two thieves mocked Jesus but Luke says that one of the thieves speak kindly to Jesus. Is this a discrepancy or contradiction? Perhaps it has to do with Luke not being a witness to the crucifixion and only interviewing witnesses?

None the less I believe the "good thief" eventually realized that Jesus did nothing CRIMINALLY wrong by claiming to be the Son of God. The good thief even said "we are getting what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong"!

You know the saying: There Are No Atheists in Foxholes!! Perhaps, just perhaps, as the good thief got closer to death he realized if Jesus is the Son of God he shouldn't be mocking him?

Bible study Mary

Yes, this all seems feasible to me. After all, they were up there for hours so, I can see the "good thief" having a change of heart during this time, and witnessing the words Jesus said with such compassion towards His killers...
Ty!

 

[Nancy]

Matthew 27:38-44;
Mark 15:27-32;
Luke 23:32-43.
John 19:18

Hello @Nancy,

Interesting question, and good for it requires scrutiny of all the accounts, and though I need to look carefully at the Scriptures concerned, even now I can see what a fruitful study this will be. So, thank you Nancy for bringing this to our notice.

I hope to return.
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Thank you Chris, I will be looking forward to what you come up with!

 

[farouk]

And into this mix of prophecy, theology, tyranny stood Jesus, a lamb to the slaughter. So many were wondering who was this man, who healed the sick yet avoided the authorities, who the authorities were terrified of, yet seemed so passive and accepting. Why try him at night, execute him in the morning, if he was not a threat. The King of the Jews, a very strange title. And his mother and disciples looking on, not like the normal bunch.
What if he was the messiah, what if his words were true, what if this was his promised freedom he spoke so much of?

Why did the teachers of the law mock him so? What had he done, other than good things and say good words? What if?

Isaiah 53 comes to mind...

 

[prism]

While reading the accounts of the thief on the cross in the Gospels, it seems that the thief came upon his repentance in the short time on the cross, but what changed his mind, between the time he was reviling Jesus and when he "repented"? In two accounts:

“Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Matthew 27:44)
“Even those who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Mark 15:32)

And then in Luke we have: Luke 23:39 "One of the criminals who hung there heaped abuse on Him. “Are You not the Christ?” he said. “Save Yourself and us!”

What was it that changed the mind of the thief who was to see Jesus in Paradise that day? He goes from mocking Jesus to calling Him a King, really. It just hit me strangely, and has me wondering...

I believe he for the first time realized his sin in comparison to Christ's sinlessness.
Luke 23:40-41 (KJV) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

 

[Joseph77]

I'm still trying to understand if it should say:

Who Is The One True Original Author of God's Word ?

 

[Joseph77]

Do you make the stories up as you go re 4 crucified alongside Jesus Base12.
No wonder...if you can't get something as simple as this right what chance is their of something complex.

Getting simple things wrong is most common all over the earth, throughout all society....
Whenever a false teacher is confronted, for example, >>>
"I know there are some among you who are so full of themselves they never listen to anyone, ...."

 

[JunChosen]

Who Is The One True Original Author of God's Word ?

God Himself and He is called JEHOVAH (one of many names He assigns to Himself).
To God Be The Glory

 

[Joseph77]

God Himself and He is called JEHOVAH (one of many names He assigns to Himself).
To God Be The Glory

HALLELUYAH ! YES ! AMEN! PRAISE TO HIS GREAT NAME ! FOREVER !

 

[farouk]

I believe he for the first time realized his sin in comparison to Christ's sinlessness.
Luke 23:40-41 (KJV) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Indeed; relevant verse there...he realized and applied the matter to his own heart.

 

[DNB]

hmm, This is the first I have heard of this, Interesting

Not popular, but interesting, ...or maybe a bit of a stretch to resolve the perceived contradiction?