entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Candidus]

DO YOU BELIEVE GOD CAN CHANGE YOU MIND AGAINST YOUR WILL ? If so, provide SCRIPTURE.

Your teachings and beliefs are contrary to all Scripture - that is what is wrong - you are offended by the truth.

I agree, it seems very odd and self-contradictory to suggest that God forces His will on people's minds, but at the same time He has no power to complete His stated will in a Believer's life.

Jesus said, "Be ye perfect... as your heavenly Father is perfect."

God's will is our sanctification.

God's will is that we "go and sin no more."

God's will is that we "continue" and "abide in Christ."

"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His Glory blameless with great joy..." (Jude 24). Can He? Will He? Is He really able to keep you from stumbling? Most people believe that God can do something to make us stand in His presence "blameless," yet deny that He can keep us from stumbling. This verse has a "Cause and Effect", the reason we can be blameless is because God promises that He is able to keep us from stumbling. No force, but available grace to work His will in the life of the Believer.

Yet, some people don't believe it! They think that God can force His will on us and save us against our wills (which is not in Scripture), and utterly fail to get people to do His will that is actually stated in Scripture! "Keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life." (Jude 21).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree, it seems very odd and self-contradictory to suggest that God forces His will on people's minds, but at the same time He has no power to complete His stated will in a Believer's life.

Jesus said, "Be ye perfect... as your heavenly Father is perfect."

God's will is our sanctification.

God's will is that we "go and sin no more."

God's will is that we "continue" and "abide in Christ."

"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His Glory blameless with great joy..." (Jude 24). Can He? Will He? Is He really able to keep you from stumbling? Most people believe that God can do something to make us stand in His presence "blameless," yet deny that He can keep us from stumbling. This verse has a "Cause and Effect", the reason we can be blameless is because God promises that He is able to keep us from stumbling. No force, but available grace to work His will in the life of the Believer.

Yet, some people don't believe it! They think that God can force His will on us and save us against our wills (which is not in Scripture), and utterly fail to get people to do His will that is actually stated in Scripture! "Keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life." (Jude 21).

Yes,

But if we are not justified first, non of this means a thing

PS. Are you perfect? Your brother answered that he is not perfect. will you?

 

[Candidus]

Yes,

But if we are not justified first, non of this means a thing

PS. Are you perfect? Your brother answered that he is not perfect. will you?

So, did someone admitting that they were not perfect prove God to be a liar?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So, did someone admitting that they were not perfect prove God to be a liar?

No

It proved they have not yet attained what they are demanding the rest of us to obtain.. And then we must ask why, why have they failed? is it the same reason the rest of us have failed?

Again, Have you obtained what your demanding of everyone else? Can you answer?

 

[FollowHim]

No

It proved they have not yet attained what they are demanding the rest of us to obtain.. And then we must ask why, why have they failed? is it the same reason the rest of us have failed?

Again, Have you obtained what your demanding of everyone else? Can you answer?

Paul said this
11 Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
2 Cor 13:11

Now your words imply some are demanding something, rather than testifying to Gods words.
It is a strange argument to say, the goal is irrelevant if no one says "I am perfect".

We are called to be like Jesus, to follow Him, to obey Him. The temple and sacrifices imply failure is expected and there is a way to resolve this failure along the way, but staying on the way is the only path to life and of life.

If one takes another view, that sin is ok, doing whatever you like is not a problem, there are no boundaries or goals, just an amble wherever it takes your fancy.

When people say, no that is not what I am saying, then you have to come up with what the goal is, the restrictions and process and thereby define a path, or else there is no path or restriction. One literally cannot have it denying perfection as a goal, and declaring a path is evil and self justification or works salvation, and then denying anything else than ones own path.

It is the same as those who decry laws as only there to show one breaks laws, and laws have no beauty and purpose of themselves, and to be against laws is not being lawless or total rebellion, it is being free. So speak all anarchists as they destroy everything they hate, while keeping things they love, except they all disagree with each other as to what this actually is, which is the definition of chaos, or doing what you consider right in ones own eyes.

 

[Candidus]

No

It proved they have not yet attained what they are demanding the rest of us to obtain.. And then we must ask why, why have they failed? is it the same reason the rest of us have failed?

Again, Have you obtained what your demanding of everyone else? Can you answer?

Again, are you saying that God is impotent to do what He claims, demands, and says that He will do?

"For whom ye yield yourselves, servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey." (Rom. 6:16) "If we are compelled, therefore, to yield ourselves servants to sin, and be subject to Satan's power, insomuch that we cannot help but obey him, and really have no choice in the matter, then our free agency, our volition, destroyed; and to make matters worse, the devil has more power than God. Satan can make us disobey God, but alas, God cannot make us disobey Satan. The devil compels us to be sinners, but God cannot compel us to be righteous. What kind of doctrine is this?"
-Howard W. Sweeten

 

[marks]

Again, are you saying that God is impotent to do what He claims, demands, and says that He will do?

No one is saying that! What is your point?

 

[Candidus]

Sounds just like you

Fact is, making strawman arguments like this, which can be turned around and be just as apply applied to yourself. shows that maybe just maybe, its all you have.

And maybe I should move on from you also..

I am not the one that has made up the strawman! When I ask details on "who" teaches this invented "sinless perfection" that everyone seems to argue against, yet they cannot name a single person or movement that has taught it! Such a doctrine that is the whipping boy, does not even exist!

It is not a "strawman" to say that the Bible NEVER says that the Atonement of Christ is a "payment for sins." The Proof is in the Fact that no one can find it in their Bibles! Yet, for some strange reason they cannot let their human invention go, or admit that it is not in Scripture.

Several here have posted where God says that sin is incompatible with being a Christian. Those passages are ignored and people run straight to attacking the person. No passage has been produced that says that Christians sin, or that Christians are still sinners, unless their interpretation of it leads to hopeless self-contradiction.

You have given me no Scriptural reason to disbelieve God and commands.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, are you saying that God is impotent to do what He claims, demands, and says that He will do?

"For whom ye yield yourselves, servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey." (Rom. 6:16) "If we are compelled, therefore, to yield ourselves servants to sin, and be subject to Satan's power, insomuch that we cannot help but obey him, and really have no choice in the matter, then our free agency, our volition, destroyed; and to make matters worse, the devil has more power than God. Satan can make us disobey God, but alas, God cannot make us disobey Satan. The devil compels us to be sinners, but God cannot compel us to be righteous. What kind of doctrine is this?"
-Howard W. Sweeten

No,

I am not saying anything

I am asking you if you have attained that goal yet.

Your partner says he has not. have you?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No one is saying that! What is your point?

lol. Amen

And he will not answer if he has achieved this yet himself

That should tell us alot.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am not the one that has made up the strawman! When I ask details on "who" teaches this invented "sinless perfection" that everyone seems to argue against, yet they cannot name a single person or movement that has taught it! Such a doctrine that is the whipping boy, does not even exist!

It is not a "strawman" to say that the Bible NEVER says that the Atonement of Christ is a "payment for sins." The Proof is in the Fact that no one can find it in their Bibles! Yet, for some strange reason they cannot let their human invention go, or admit that it is not in Scripture.

Several here have posted where God says that sin is incompatible with being a Christian. Those passages are ignored and people run straight to attacking the person. No passage has been produced that says that Christians sin, or that Christians are still sinners, unless their interpretation of it leads to hopeless self-contradiction.

You have given me no Scriptural reason to disbelieve God and commands.

You have given me no scriptural reason to believe I must atone for my own sins

 

[Candidus]

Yes, And I have based my view based on what you have said, and shown you why I believe it.

And have yet to see you show me how I got what you said wrong. You just keep giving more and more examples. which continue to strengthen my view.



Does not John answer this question?

Those who deny Jesus are called antichrists, and he is very specific, when he says these people. who at one time were part of the church and have left. WERE NEVER OF US, for if they were of us, THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE LEFT.

So if they never were of us, Were they ever justified?

The answer can ONLY be no

Once again by ignoring the Gnostic problem and mixed church that John writes to, you can only come up with a wrong conclusion of only one possibility.

In this passage we are left with several possibilities:

1. These Gnostic in this Christian assembly were never truly converted, and the assertion that many make that these "anti-Christs" were never believers as evidenced by their departure. Even if we hold to this interpretation of this passage, we do not have any warrant to make a universal application outside of this specific scenario. To make every case of apostasy outside of the situation that John addresses to mean that certain people were never saved could not be proved from this singular text.

It is a confusing and contrary statement to make this passage say that, ​

"If you ever fall away from the faith, then you were never in the faith." ​

This is the same nonsense as saying, ​

"If I ever leave Canada, then I was never in Canada." ​

It is astonishing to see how people will fly in the face of the whole of Scripture with the use of such illogical arguments, and wholeheartedly believe that they are actually making sense! ​

2. It is valid interpretation to say that this verse is asserting that those who leave the assembly of believers were not believers or in sympathy with believers at the moment of their departure. This does not prove that they had never been genuine believers. This means that they were not in sympathy with the church at the time of their withdrawal. It does not signify that they were never genuine Christians. The fact that there are withered and fruitless branches now in the true vine (John 15:2) does not prove that those branches were never alive, but, rather, it proves their former life.

3. It is true that both situations are evident in the modern Church. There are those who are in "membership" on a human level, but have never been a member on a "spiritual" level. They appear to be Christians, but have never been regenerated and born-again. We would both agree that this is a real problem, but where we would disagree is that John is not making a universal statement, but one specifically to the situation in this church.
There is no universal principle in Scripture that denies that true believers cannot fall from the faith, nor is there any universal principle that if you fall away, you were never saved in the first place.

 

[Candidus]

No one is saying that! What is your point?

It's exactly what people are saying! It is not that they are grasping onto the promises, believing them, and accepting that it is true! Their first reaction is to argue against the facts and to justify sin.

 

[Candidus]

You have given me no scriptural reason to believe I must atone for my own sins

The wages of sin is death...

 

[marks]

lol. Amen

And he will not answer if he has achieved this yet himself

That should tell us alot.

I resist going to personal testimony to base doctrine upon.

For me, whether or not someone does or does not do any particular thing, none of that changes the meaning of Scripture. I can give my "resume in the faith" and for what? I'm someone typing on the internet, for one thing, who knows whether anything I say about myself is true.

I can give my passion for my view, what it means to me, what it's done for me, for all anyone knows I'm arguing something I don't actually even believe, only to gain in position over you all.

I think it's fully possible to experience the supernatural, God's miraculous work in our lives, and walk away with the wrong idea. God does a work in us, and His work is real, and lasting, and yet, we can misinterpret, thinking, for instance, that this is how God is going to work in everyone.

I ask the question to those who seem to me to be insinuating that they are in fact without any sin. Something in me just wants to bring hidden things to light. Mostly I just want someone's teaching to be fully known. Is someone tying up heavy burdens for others and not carrying such a load themself?

But even so, the real question to me is what the Bible teaches.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It's exactly what people are saying! It is not that they are grasping onto the promises, believing them, and accepting that it is true! Their first reaction is to argue against the facts and to justify sin.

Accepting that what is true?

 

[FollowHim]

Yes, And I have based my view based on what you have said, and shown you why I believe it.

And have yet to see you show me how I got what you said wrong. You just keep giving more and more examples. which continue to strengthen my view.

Does not John answer this question?

Those who deny Jesus are called antichrists, and he is very specific, when he says these people. who at one time were part of the church and have left. WERE NEVER OF US, for if they were of us, THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE LEFT.

So if they never were of us, Were they ever justified?

The answer can ONLY be no

The problem with the summary above, is it is a summary of something that has not taken place.
Understanding is a fragile thing, it is taking an idea, walking through it and then checking two people agree the principles.

Now put it simply, we do not agree the principles. As best I can I put them simply, and too many to count say amen to my descriptions and emphasis, while you seem totally perplexed. I suggest therefore either these views or ideas pass you by or you actually choose to create the impression of not understanding a simple proposition.

But at least, praise the Lord, you do not know me, and I am not like you. So there is progress, no matter how small, I will take it, Amen.

The principle under discussion is a polarised perspective. Either we can walk like Jesus or we cannot.
If we cannot walk like Jesus, then if we are to become like Him, it must happen at some point in the future.
Now a sinner into a perfect saint could be at the resurrection, because after that there is no change, unless you have purgatory and praying for the dead etc.

Paul had the aspiration of the disciples who he taught, would be presented blameless and perfect to Christ at His return.

14 Do everything without complaining or arguing,
15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
16 as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.
Phil 2:14-16

7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.
8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 1:7-8

If Paul expects the disciples to be blameless and regards himself as holy and blameless, then these things are to be expected, now, today, in the whole church, among His people.

If one wants to claim, no this is not true, such a walk is impossible, it is just in Gods eyes they are blameless but they are still sinners, where is the scripture that says they become the true fulfilment of Christ, sinner to saint?

And if it is missing, is it not missing because it is taught today, in Christ we are cleansed, Holy, blameless and pure and we are expected to continue to walk in this until Christ returns.

3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
Eph 5:3

This would be absurd if such standards or principles are not part of the people of God in the world, God's holy people.
Now if one can explain how God's holy people can be a wilfully sinning people who will be made into the perfect bride of Christ at the last moment, I am all ears, because it does not appear to be there, but maybe my bible is missing some books, somewhere....

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Once again by ignoring the Gnostic problem and mixed church that John writes to, you can only come up with a wrong conclusion of only one possibility.

In this passage we are left with several possibilities:

1. These Gnostic in this Christian assembly were never truly converted, and the assertion that many make that these "anti-Christs" were never believers as evidenced by their departure. Even if we hold to this interpretation of this passage, we do not have any warrant to make a universal application outside of this specific scenario. To make every case of apostasy outside of the situation that John addresses to mean that certain people were never saved could not be proved from this singular text.

It is a confusing and contrary statement to make this passage say that,
"If you ever fall away from the faith, then you were never in the faith."
This is the same nonsense as saying,
"If I ever leave Canada, then I was never in Canada."
It is astonishing to see how people will fly in the face of the whole of Scripture with the use of such illogical arguments, and wholeheartedly believe that they are actually making sense! ​

2. It is valid interpretation to say that this verse is asserting that those who leave the assembly of believers were not believers or in sympathy with believers at the moment of their departure. This does not prove that they had never been genuine believers. This means that they were not in sympathy with the church at the time of their withdrawal. It does not signify that they were never genuine Christians. The fact that there are withered and fruitless branches now in the true vine (John 15:2) does not prove that those branches were never alive, but, rather, it proves their former life.

3. It is true that both situations are evident in the modern Church. There are those who are in "membership" on a human level, but have never been a member on a "spiritual" level. They appear to be Christians, but have never been regenerated and born-again. We would both agree that this is a real problem, but where we would disagree is that John is not making a universal statement, but one specifically to the situation in this church.
There is no universal principle in Scripture that denies that true believers cannot fall from the faith, nor is there any universal principle that if you fall away, you were never saved in the first place.

I have no Gnostic problem

My problem is with someone who will not tell us if he can live up to the standard he keeps demanding of everyone else

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The wages of sin is death...

The GIFT of God is ETERNAL life in Christ

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The problem with the summary above, is it is a summary of something that has not taken place.
Understanding is a fragile thing, it is taking an idea, walking through it and then checking two people agree the principles.

Now put it simply, we do not agree the principles. As best I can I put them simply, and too many to count say amen to my descriptions and emphasis, while you seem totally perplexed. I suggest therefore either these views or ideas pass you by or you actually choose to create the impression of not understanding a simple proposition.

But at least, praise the Lord, you do not know me, and I am not like you. So there is progress, no matter how small, I will take it, Amen.

The principle under discussion is a polarised perspective. Either we can walk like Jesus or we cannot.
If we cannot walk like Jesus, then if we are to become like Him, it must happen at some point in the future.
Now a sinner into a perfect saint could be at the resurrection, because after that there is no change, unless you have purgatory and praying for the dead etc.

Paul had the aspiration of the disciples who he taught, would be presented blameless and perfect to Christ at His return.

14 Do everything without complaining or arguing,
15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
16 as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.
Phil 2:14-16

7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.
8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 1:7-8

If Paul expects the disciples to be blameless and regards himself as holy and blameless, then these things are to be expected, now, today, in the whole church, among His people.

If one wants to claim, no this is not true, such a walk is impossible, it is just in Gods eyes they are blameless but they are still sinners, where is the scripture that says they become the true fulfilment of Christ, sinner to saint?

And if it is missing, is it not missing because it is taught today, in Christ we are cleansed, Holy, blameless and pure and we are expected to continue to walk in this until Christ returns.

3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
Eph 5:3

This would be absurd if such standards or principles are not part of the people of God in the world, God's holy people.
Now if one can explain how God's holy people can be a wilfully sinning people who will be made into the perfect bride of Christ at the last moment, I am all ears, because it does not appear to be there, but maybe my bible is missing some books, somewhere....

This issue is you say you believe God has made you Holy and it is him who keeps you holy

Yet then say you believe people God has made holy. may in the end, Fail to be made holy By God