Saved Or Predestined ???

[Mike Waters]

One is tempted to wonder if there is any 'theology' that, whilst appearing to be clearly underpinned by certain scriptures, does not appear to be equally clearly undermined by other scriptures.

 

[Enoch111]

One is tempted to wonder if there is any 'theology' that, whilst appearing to be clearly underpinned by certain scriptures, does not appear to be equally clearly undermined by other scriptures.

Since the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion, that is evidently false.

In fact there are no contradictions in Scripture. But unless it is rightly divided (interpreted) it will result in confusion.

If God offers salvation to all of humanity (which He clearly does) it stands to reason that He does not elect some for salvation and others for damnation. Therefore there must be another purpose for predestination and election. And that too is clearly spelled out.

 

[101G]

Since the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion, that is evidently false.

In fact there are no contradictions in Scripture. But unless it is rightly divided (interpreted) it will result in confusion.

If God offers salvation to all of humanity (which He clearly does) it stands to reason that He does not elect some for salvation and others for damnation. Therefore there must be another purpose for predestination and election. And that too is clearly spelled out.

Correct, people are missing what was predestined, Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren". the salvation is in his Son, who was predestine to come

NEXT VERSE, Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified".

PICJAG.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Correct, people are missing what was predestined, Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren". the salvation is in his Son, who was predestine to come

NEXT VERSE, Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified".

PICJAG.

Yes, Like alot of doctrine

They miss the context of what is being said, and try to insert their own context.

 

[FollowHim]

I think scripture says we are predestined, Not everything is predestined. AMEN

Everything is predestined, ie. God knows what will happen and when.
If God does not know the future, then we can make our own future outside the hands of the Lord, and things are not set, just hoped for.

Some talk about fate, and in a sense with the limitations of life our fate is to die.
But the future is also in our hands, as much as the decisions that govern it that are ours are taken.
But God can know what we will decide, freely, and know the consequences.

Like with Judas though, God still blessed and gave all the same opportunities to show nothing is biased, everything is just and fair. And this is the important point, if we knew the future, we would change our behaviour which would change the future etc. That is an infinite loop, so knowledge of the future can be only that which does not change it or else it is not future knowledge. This explains why we can only see part and understand part.

It is the same dilemma with Gods will. If we know Gods will and rebel, we are in sin, and if we do this openly we have to be judged. There is a sense in which God can give us direction and choice, by hiding its directness, to avoid such a thing. We want a perfect path, except that would destroy us once we got into conflict. There is a real reason things are kept hidden and waiting for our discovery, which unfortunately some believers feel God has promised to give them while they just sit back and relax and live the worlds way. God bless you

 

[Candidus]

Predestination

Fact: Only occurs 5 times in the Bible.

It means to mark out beforehand, to for-ordain that something will happen. Erroneously used say that God, by an eternal decree, has resolved (predestined) from all eternity to save a portion of mankind and to damn all others apart from anything within themselves, to include any foreknowledge of any future faith or obedience. Upon an unbiased observation of Scripture, we can see that there is not a singular instance where the word "predestination" is used in the context of the salvation of any individual.

Rom. 8:29-30, states clearly what is predestined; it is that those that are called (a term referring to those who receive the gracious offer of God to salvation) are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, which is sanctification, holiness of character, and not salvation.

In Ephesians 1:5 we are told that from all eternity God "predestined us (believers, Saints (holy ones), see verse one for context) to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto Himself." Notice that this predestined adoption is not to individuals but to a class of people, the "Church," (Us). The means of this adoption is also clear, it is not by some preexistent fatalistic decree, but through Jesus Christ that we are predestined to gain this adoption. Verse 4 clarifies this statement by showing what the plan of God before all time was, "just as He chose us (believers) in Him (Jesus Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless (sanctification) before Him in love." Before the foundation of the world, God determined (predestinated, for-ordained) that we would be "chosen" on the basis of faith in the work of Jesus Christ for salvation, resulting in a change of character, from sin to holiness.

Ephesians 1:11 uses the term predestination once again, but is ambiguous as to what the subject of this predestination is. "We have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will." What is predestined? The individual, or the obtaining of an inheritance? The context of the following two verses lead us to the idea that this purpose is that we should be to the praise of his glory (holiness?) by trusting in Jesus Christ. Ver. 12, 13. Also consider that without a single passage that states clearly that God predestines individuals to election and reprobation, we are better served in honoring the consistency of the Scriptures to say that it is the plan of God that we receive salvation (our inheritance) through trusting in Jesus Christ, which is what is predestined for the believers?

1 Corinthians 2:7 states, "but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory." Notice that it is God's wisdom that is predestined to those that believe, and not the predestination that they would believe the wisdom.

Acts 4:28 is the last occurrence of the term in the Holy Scriptures. This passage is simply a statement that that the death of Christ was predestined and did not happen because of the determination of the will of man. A term that only has five occurrences within the Scriptures cannot possibly be the cornerstone of the plan and mystery of God concerning salvation, especially when there is not a singular statement that any individual has ever been predestined by God to salvation. With the same facts, it is also apparent that it would be a great error to build an entire theology based upon the predestination of individuals, since by drawing on this unbiblical assumption, one cannot possibly arrive at truth, and that is Biblical.

 

[Candidus]

Everything is predestined, ie. God knows what will happen and when.
If God does not know the future, then we can make our own future outside the hands of the Lord, and things are not set, just hoped for.

If God cannot choose not to know certain things about the future and the free-will of man, then He is not God.

 

[kcnalp]

Biblical "eternal security" is that nobody can make us forsake God. But we can choose to do so!

 

[kcnalp]

If God cannot choose not to know certain things about the future and the free-will of man, then He is not God.

Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite.

 

[FollowHim]

If God cannot choose not to know certain things about the future and the free-will of man, then He is not God.

There is a heretical group who believe we can create our own future, that God makes us eternal like Him, and we have the creative ability to make the future. The lack of clarity is put down to God not knowing what will come, but letting it unfold. This theology comes out of latter rain theology and the little gods idea, where God has no longer authority on earth. When I heard "christian" preachers teaching this, Benny Hinn, I almost fell off my chair laughing. He cannot create a good future for himself, but in creation, this is just the world of the insane.

 

[Candidus]

There is a heretical group who believe we can create our own future, that God makes us eternal like Him, and we have the creative ability to make the future. The lack of clarity is put down to God not knowing what will come, but letting it unfold. This theology comes out of latter rain theology and the little gods idea, where God has no longer authority on earth. When I heard "christian" preachers teaching this, Benny Hinn, I almost fell off my chair laughing. He cannot create a good future for himself, but in creation, this is just the world of the insane.

God claims that we are RESPONSIBLE. If we are RESPOS-ABLE, then we are ACCOUNTABLE. If we are not ABLE, then we are not ACCOUNTABLE, for we can do nothing other than the Puppet Master makes us do!

To say this Monster is the God of the Bible is heresy!

 

[Candidus]

Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite.

Understanding isn't foreknowledge.

 

[kcnalp]

Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;

 

[kcnalp]

Understanding isn't foreknowledge.

"infinite"

 

[Enoch111]

Everything is predestined, ie. God knows what will happen and when.
If God does not know the future, then we can make our own future outside the hands of the Lord, and things are not set, just hoped for.

What you meant is everything is FOREKNOWN. Known beforehand. However, some things are predestined, or predetermined by God. The best example is the crucifixion of Christ.

 

[kcnalp]

What you meant is everything is FOREKNOWN. Known beforehand. However, some things are predestined, or predetermined by God. The best example is the crucifixion of Christ.

If one thing is predestined EVERYTHING must be predestined!

 

[Enoch111]

I prefer 1 John 3:18-24

Now we have a couple of separate issues, related to the genuineness of conversion.

THOSE WHO ARE JUSTIFIED MUST OBEY CHRIST AND ABIDE IN HIM
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.... 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

THOSE WHO ARE JUSTIFIED MUST ALSO WALK IN THE SPIRIT
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Too many who use your verses out of context and separate them from the conditions in the beginning of the chapter do not believe that willful sins of the flesh can separate us from God, but 1 John 3 shows otherwise, as does Galatians 5:19-21.

As already noted in Romans 8, NOTHING can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. This is addressed to those who are justified. Which also means that nothing can change the fact that (1) God justifies guilty sinners by His grace, and not based upon their merits (2) God gives those who are justified the gift of the Holy Spirit, and (3) the Holy Spirit regenerates those who are justified. If you cannot believe that, then you do not believe the Word of God. That does not mean that the sin nature has been removed. And God does deal with wilful sins in His children, but that does not mean that they are no longer children of God.

Look at your verses again and notice these are outside forces, not what you do yourself, which is why I prefer 1 John 3:21-24.

You seem to have forgotten that Paul includes "life" as well as "death". Life is not an outside force, but your life -- what you do or not do. So even if Christians sin (and there is not one who is sinlessly perfect) they cannot be separated from God.

 

[Enoch111]

If one thing is predestined EVERYTHING must be predestined!

FALSE. God does not -- and would not -- predestine you to commit murder.

 

[Candidus]

You seem to have forgotten that Paul includes "life" as well as "death". Life is not an outside force, but your life -- what you do or not do. So even if Christians sin (and there is not one who is sinlessly perfect) they cannot be separated from God.

In context Paul is speaking of outward persecution where "we are being put to death all day long." Yes... life and death are correctly an external outside force in this context.

 

[Candidus]

If one thing is predestined EVERYTHING must be predestined!

If God is the Cause of every action, then He is the Author of sin and responsible for all sin.

Following your philosophy to its conclusion makes God the devil.