Mike, Enoch111 is one of the worst exegetes. But this should've been evident to you, when you saw how presumptuous he was with all his affirmations. In other words, it's always the ones who claim that disagreeing with them, is tantamount to disagreeing with God. I think that Enoch111 actually coined the term.
Saved Or Predestined ???
- Thread starter Pianoworldstage
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That's a bit of a non-sequitur, as most people that believe in God's omnipotence do not question his capabilities. The characteristic that is in in question here, is His wisdom. Do you think that after the Book of Revelation was written, there are people that are receiving insights into heaven that only a few exceptional men have obtained? And these men wrote their visions in Scripture, of which nothing is to be added.
Plus, your beliefs in this woman's testimony, also presupposes that heaven is open to saints before Judgement day. Which I don't, for example.
And obviously, no one is obligated, or even expected, to agree with everyone on the forum. But, it is incumbent upon all to test the spirits, and discern delusions and hallucinations when presented before us.
I agree that there may be mitigating circumstances for children who die before the age of responsibility, but again, that's not the question here. Who invited this women into the abode of the saints, which is currently forbidden to all. And then, in order to reveal what, more doctrine worthy of Scripture?
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Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
@Pianoworldstage
Its simple, if it was already decided by decree that certain people would be saved before the gospel, then you need not waste your time spreading it, because they don't need it. As for those who were not determined to be saved, well, you need not waste your time with them either since they are totally screwed no matter what.
Its simple, if it was already decided by decree that certain people would be saved before the gospel, then you need not waste your time spreading it, because they don't need it. As for those who were not determined to be saved, well, you need not waste your time with them either since they are totally screwed no matter what.
It's been a while since I read the book, I would have to read her testimony again.
I do however believe that their are believers already in Heaven.
When we read about the thieves on the cross, we see that point proven. I will bring up the verses here.
Luke 23:39-43
"Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
Here is the deal, a war eventually breaks out in heaven between Satan and Michael, so why Christians are so eager to see this place as if its really that much different than whats going on here, is beyond me. You can best believe there is plenty of drama going on up there as we speak. God plainly states that he will dwell with his creation on the new earth to come, not in some other undefined location called "heaven". There really ain't that much to look forward to in heaven, nor does John even say we should be.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Charismaticlady said:
That is the whole purpose of being given the Spirit of God - to empower us to not sin. We are partakers of the DIVINE NATURE, so what makes you think the old man still rules you? It is not our body that sins, it is our nature. That is what is born again. Those who still struggle with sin have never been born again.[/Quote\]
While I agree that God's Holy Spirit helps us to not practice sin, that doesn't mean we are without sin. It doesn't mean we don't make mistakes. Anyone who thinks they're perfect and don't sin or makes mistakes are lying to themselves and to everyone else.
The faithful Christian may at some time lapse or fall into sin because of weakness or being misled, but he “does not carry on sin,” continuing to walk in it.—1Jo 3:9, 10; compare 1Co 15:33, 34; 1Ti 5:20.
We still have the sin that causes death, we still make mistakes. Why would the scriptures tell those taking the lead in the congregation to reproove those who practice sin if those who were practicing sin had not only been baptized with water but also with God's Holy Spirit and not be able to sin because they had been baptized with Holy Spirit? As I said none of us are perfect, the Holy Spirit helps us to not practice sin but that doesn't mean we don't sin at all. That we're perfect and don't make mistakes.
That is the whole purpose of being given the Spirit of God - to empower us to not sin. We are partakers of the DIVINE NATURE, so what makes you think the old man still rules you? It is not our body that sins, it is our nature. That is what is born again. Those who still struggle with sin have never been born again.[/Quote\]
While I agree that God's Holy Spirit helps us to not practice sin, that doesn't mean we are without sin. It doesn't mean we don't make mistakes. Anyone who thinks they're perfect and don't sin or makes mistakes are lying to themselves and to everyone else.
The faithful Christian may at some time lapse or fall into sin because of weakness or being misled, but he “does not carry on sin,” continuing to walk in it.—1Jo 3:9, 10; compare 1Co 15:33, 34; 1Ti 5:20.
We still have the sin that causes death, we still make mistakes. Why would the scriptures tell those taking the lead in the congregation to reproove those who practice sin if those who were practicing sin had not only been baptized with water but also with God's Holy Spirit and not be able to sin because they had been baptized with Holy Spirit? As I said none of us are perfect, the Holy Spirit helps us to not practice sin but that doesn't mean we don't sin at all. That we're perfect and don't make mistakes.
Greetings Pianoworldstage!
Yes, God had chosen for Himself a people from among fallen mankind to be His people.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
All the things you mentioned there are positive indications that you are among the chosen. A lot had been written in scriptures about the chosen of God. You may consider reading the Bible and search them out and find out. Next to God, it is you who can really answer your question there.
If one is not among the chosen and predestined, he will not put any hope, faith and trust in Jesus Christ, at least not genuinely. Should there be one who claims to have his hope, faith and trust in Jesus Christ, but is not among the chosen and predestined, he is a false believer/brethren. In time he will be exposed.
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R0023
Greetings Enoch111!
Predestination and election, strictly speaking, are not for believers, but speaks of and about the children of God. Election and predestination are not a result of anything and could not be the result of, nor is brought about by the action or doing of the still uncreated chosen and predestined person, but are the plan of God concerning them, even from before creation.
You said "All may be saved if all will obey the Gospel." If obedience is the basis, then I don't believe there is not even one who will be saved. For, except Jesus Christ, not one man lived to be without sin. Besides, as all have sinned, all then are spiritually dead ~ dead in sin and trespasses. And dead as they are, they are not able to hear or understand the things of the Spirit of God (which are spiritually discerned), which renders them to be not able to obey the gospel, unless God quickens them, so that they may hear and understand and could obey should they will to obey. Furthermore, sinful man is described by scriptures as to be a slave to sin and he only obey his master, that is sin. He cannot obey Jesus Christ, for he knows Him not, nor is He his master.
I gather from your post that at least you believe in predestination and election. So I ask this question to you (and anyone who likes to answer it), how do you relate the election for salvation and predestination to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ with the freedom of choice of the individual?
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R0024
Greetings Taken!
Can you please cite scriptures that teaches or says that? Thank you.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
You said God knows who will "choose to receive His offering". I ask, what is His choosing for then?
Please cite scriptures that teaches or says that.
Those are no conditions, but are positive indications that one may well be among the chosen for salvation and predestined by God to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. The Word (John 1:1-3) did not become flesh (John 1:14) to live in perfect obedience to the will of God, suffer and die an innocent death on the most humiliating and lowly death in those times, that is, by crucifixion, just so man can have a choice to be saved or not, or just so to have a choice between life and death. Rather, He did that for the purpose, among others, expressed plainly in the following scriptures:
Matthew 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
No. The Greek word translated "predestined" in scriptures is "proorizó" which means to predetermine, foreordain. What you say there is different and not what "predestined" is.
To my knowledge, scriptures does not say what you say there. Please show scriptures, if there is any, that says that.
What scriptures says regarding the election or choosing of God of people is:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
The election was for salvation. So, it could not be that they were chosen because they chose God or because they believed in the truth, for belief in the truth is through which God will save them, and is not the basis of God's election.
Besides, God could not have chosen them because they believed in Him and love him. For, if ever they came to believe and love God, it is because God loved them first.
1 John 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.
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R0025
Greetings Josho! Consider studying the following scriptures.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
You asked "what's the point of Evangelism?"
Why evangelize, why preach? And why not? Just because God had chosen a people to be His people, whom He will bring to heaven to be with Him, does not make evangelism pointless. For no man knows who the elect of God were, until they are revealed.
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R0026
That's a pretty good answer, see post #65, that is what I believe. I believe both predestined and salvation work together. God knows the future, he knows what each one of us will do, we still get to make a decision though.
God Bless you.
Greetings Renniks! Please consider studying the following scriptures.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
That's pretty plain and clear ~ was chosen for salvation from the beginning.
If there were people chosen for salvation, it follows that others were not. Clearly, that demonstrates and speaks a lot about God's character and nature, firstly His absolute sovereignty. You seem to imply that if that were the case, God is unjust. And on what basis? Does scriptures say that? If not, then where is that coming from? Does it come from your personal take of what is just and what is unjust. Anyway, let me show you scriptures that speaks about the sovereignty of God and which tells us that there is no unrighteousness when God gives mercy to some and not to all, or when God hardens some people and not all.
Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
I'd say verse 20 would remind men who they are in relation to God and shuts the mouths of those who seem to put in question the sovereign acts of God regarding His election, either of a people (to be His people) to salvation, or of people and individuals to serve His purpose/s.
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R0027
That's a pretty good answer, see post #65, that is what I believe. I believe both predestined and salvation work together. God knows the future, he knows what each one of us will do, we still get to make a decision though.
God Bless you.
I read your #65.
Now, you said God knows the future. What future are you referring to? Before all creation, can you tell us what to you is God's foreknowledge? What future does God knows ~ Is it of things He planned to do or is it of random things He didn't know will happen if not for His foreknowledge?
As you would see, my question is whether what you say God sees and knows in the future (perhaps such things as Lucifer rebelling against Him and Eve's sinning and so of Adam's sinning) are things contained in His plan or are of random things He did not know will happen if not for His power of foreknowing.
Before all creation, whatever future you are talking about that God sees ahead and knows, could only be that which God has determined to do (plan) and allowed to come to pass (accomplish according to His plan). So, having said that, God's foreknowledge could only be anything but what He determined to do (plan) and that which will come to pass according to His plan. There is nothing that happens that God does not know and does not allow to happen. There simply is no random event for God. God's foreknowledge is not of things that happens in random but of things which God has determined to do (plan) and allowed to come to pass (accomplish according to His plan). This is critical in that, an erroneous take with regards the foreknowledge of God leads to erroneous understanding and doctrines.
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R0028
Greetings Rocky Wiley!
Of course God forces no one to accept. But that does not mean that He could not cause one to freely accept. There is no heart so hard that God could not soften and no man so wicked that He could not convict, convince, and convert. The bottom line being is that, it's just a matter of His will, purpose, pleasure, and glory, as to whom He will have mercy and whom He will harden.
You said "God is just and there will come the end of the age and those who never had the option of coming to God will be judged according to the life they lived." Those who never had the option of coming to God (and perhaps you are referring even to those whom the gospel had not reached), wouldn't you agree that they are sinners? And so, if they are, what judgement do you think awaits them, other than death, even the second death?
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R0029
Thanks for showing a verse that proves that salvation is not predestined, and that sanctification and holiness is! Just like Ephesians says!
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth...
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
I see your take on God up above, and it comments on you, not the person of God and His Sovereignty of which you hold disdain.
With the merciful you show yourself merciful; with the blameless man you show yourself blameless; with the purified you show yourself pure; and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous. Psalms 18:25-26
It is pretty plain... [apo] never means "at" or "before", but means "distance away from", since the beginning.
Secondly. who is "you"? "chose you for salvation through sanctification"? It is the brethren (v.1) who are not perishing like the wicked who "did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved" (v.10). Paul blames their perishing to their rejection of the Gospel, not to any predestination from the beginning! To reject something, it must have been a real and true offer and not a trick to bait and condemn someone. "in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (v.12). No suggestion that they were left out and predestined to damnation from the beginning... but because of their free-will and choice. Verse 13 defines "YOU" in context as those who did not reject the Gospel, but believers who accepted the truth.
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you,(those that believe and have received the Gospel) brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning (since, from the start of time to the present) chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth... (not chosen because of some fictional predestination and predetermined fate, but on the condition of belief in the truth).
Just like in Ephesians, the plan of God to save those who would receive the gracious offer of salvation by faith was known since the beginning. It is the predestination of the Body, the Church, based upon individual grafted in by faith.
It's pretty plain and clear ~ that Paul never speaks of any fatalism of the individual to Heaven or Hell. People get saved in time, not by some act of fate in the past. This is spoken of everywhere in Scripture as something in the present. There is no predestination in Scripture that says that salvation is only waking up to the fact that you were never lost, but saved at the beginning by fate.
Greetings Candidus!
Please try to read again 2 Thessalonians 2:13. It's not a verse that proves that salvation is not predestined nor is it a verse that proves that sanctification and holiness is predestined.
What it says is that the Christians, are them people whom God had chosen from the beginning, CHOSEN FOR SALVATION. And this SALVATION, God accomplishes THROUGH SANCTIFICATION BY THE HOLY SPIRIT and BELIEF IN THE TRUTH. What it proves then is of God's election of people for salvation.
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R0032
I read it. [apo] never means "at" or "before" the beginning, but distance "from", away from, since." Salvation happens in the moment, not in the fatalistic past. The Scriptures are clear. God elects the Church, and individuals are only part of it if they receive it.
The context is plain and clear that God saves those that receive and believe since the beginning.
God inspired Scripture and only used [prooridzo] five times. Not once is it used to say that any individual is predestined to heaven or hell... how did God miss this opportunity to say it?
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