The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

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BreadOfLife

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Greetings BreadOfLife!

I have this question for you. Hope you could give me your honest answer. Before all creation, can you tell us what to you is God's foreknowledge? What future does God knows? Is it of things He planned to do? Is it of random things He didn't know will happen if not for His foreknowledge?


Tong
R0015
I believe I already explained it . . .

As we read in 2 Pet. 3:8 - God is not bound by time. He sees ALL of time simultaneously and is present at every event in time simultaneously. As such, He knows what HAS happened, what IS happening and what WILL happen.
Man has a free will - to choose to follow God or to reject Him. God already knows which of us have chosen to follow Him and thosr who have chosen to reject Him.
THIS is His "foreknowledge".

God is not a monster who sends people kicking and screaming into Hell against their will - nor does He drag anybody into Heaven kicking and screaming against their will. He does not coerce us to follow Him nor does He ordain those who reject Him.
He gives US that choice.
 

Tong2020

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And I never made the claim that we HAD to sin.
We stumble because although we are being MADE holy and perfect - none of us is.

Your second point about sin in RED is also false: "Don't have to + don't want to = cannot."
This is unBiblical nonsense. Paul's entire message in Romans 7 is about his sinning despite his not wanting to.

As I told you before - the verses you presented are words of encouragement so that we don't sin - NOT a guarantee that we won't sin.

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

That sure is plain and clear, those born of God cannot sin. To say otherwise is to say that this Scriptures is false. To have this mean other than what it plainly says is to twist this scriptures and change the truth it declares. To argue against this, appealing to the reality that Christians still do sin, I think is rebellion against the truth of God's words in those scriptures.

It's good you mentioned Romans 7. You said "Romans 7 is about his sinning despite his not wanting to". That's right. And in your reading of Romans 7, did you learn of the reason why is that? Romans 7 explains why the Christian is said and seen to still do sinful acts. Not that, the child of God truly cannot sin, which contradicts 1 John 3:9. Consider what Paul says here and find out:

Romans 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Also, consider what Paul is saying here:

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Paul points to man's fleshly bodies as being still the problem of the child of God like Paul. Here's what he said concerning the flesh of man.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

So, of course Romans 7 is not saying that 1 John 3:9 is false. Nor does it make 1 John 3:9 to not mean what it plainly says. Scriptures does not contradict scriptures. Thus, I believe, as 1 John 3:9 says, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."


Tong
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Tong2020

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I believe I already explained it . . .

As we read in 2 Pet. 3:8 - God is not bound by time. He sees ALL of time simultaneously and is present at every event in time simultaneously. As such, He knows what HAS happened, what IS happening and what WILL happen.
Man has a free will - to choose to follow God or to reject Him. God already knows which of us have chosen to follow Him and thosr who have chosen to reject Him.
THIS is His "foreknowledge".

God is not a monster who sends people kicking and screaming into Hell against their will - nor does He drag anybody into Heaven kicking and screaming against their will. He does not coerce us to follow Him nor does He ordain those who reject Him.
He gives US that choice.

I am just trying to see how you see God's foreknowledge. I am not arguing anything, at least not yet. For one, you speak of it as seeing and knowing the future. I know that already, and so that is not what I am asking. So, if you'll be kind enough to read again and see what I am asking and perhaps address it, I will greatly appreciate it.

This was and is my question:

Before all creation, can you tell us what to you is God's foreknowledge? What future does God knows ~ Is it of things He planned to do or is it of random things He didn't know will happen if not for His foreknowledge?

Yes you speak of God knowing which of us have chosen to follow Him and those who have chosen to reject Him. But that is not what I am asking about. My question is whether what you say God sees and knows in the future, perhaps such as Lucifer rebelling against Him and Eve's sinning and so of Adam's sinning, are things contained in His plan or are of random things He did not know will happen if not for His power of foreknowing.

Tong
R0017
 

Illuminator

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See this is how the church has you confused

Works are works are works,

If you do them in order to GAIN, MAINTAIN or NOT LOSE salvation.

You believe in a works based Gospel

it does not matter if they were prepaired for us, they were done in love, or through grace or whatever

If they are done to earn a reward or wage, (in this case salvation)

then it is a works based salvation gospel
That is a Calvinist conclusion based on a false premise. God does everything so that means we don't have to do anything??? Cooperating with God's grace does not over-ride the faith requirement.
You seem unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Here is some more relevant information to consider:

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.), accepted as dogma by the Catholic Church, dogmatically taught in its Canon 7:

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite Jn 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]
One would think that that alone would be enough to dispel the myth, but the "works based Gospel" myth won't go away.

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.
Canon I on Justification:

If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
Again, the "works based Gospel" myth won't go away.

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, MailManDan and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God . . . Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.
Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott describes the Catholic view:

As God’s grace is the presupposition and foundation of supernatural good works, by which man merits eternal life, so salutary works are, at the same time gifts of God and meritorious acts of man. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1974 [orig. 1952], 264)
St. Augustine wrote:

What merit of man is there before grace by which he can achieve grace, as only grace works every one of our good merits in us, and as God, when He crowns our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts? (Ep. 194, 5, 19; in Ott, 265)

The Lord has made Himself a debtor, not by receiving, but by promising. Man cannot say to Him, “Give back what thou hast received” but only “Give what thou hast promised.” (Enarr. in Ps 83, 16; in Ott, 267)

The concept of merit and its corollary reward is well-supported in Scripture
Matthew 5:12, 19:17, 21, 29; 25:21; 25:34 ff.;
Luke 6:38
Romans 2:6
1 Corinthians 3:8; 9:17;
Colossians 3:24;
Hebrews 6:10; 10:35; 11:6;
2 Timothy 4:8;
Ephesians 6:8​

. . . . The Catholic Church was right in maintaining against Luther, at the Council of Trent, that heaven is merited by our good works, because this is the clear teaching of revelation. “We have shown that according to Holy Scripture the Christian can actually merit heaven for himself by his good works. But we must realize that these works have to be performed in the state of grace and with a good intention . . .

But we must realize that these works have to be performed in the state of grace and with a good intention . . .

Yet, the "works based Gospel" MYTH lives on. The Bible doesn't fabricate a false dichotomy between faith and good works the way the reformers did. They are inseparable.

Jesus himself tells his disciples: ‘I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me (by the state of grace), and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit (for heaven). If a man does not abide in me (by mortal sin) . . . he can do nothing’ – he can bear no fruit for heaven; just as the branch that is cut off from the vine cannot produce any grapes.

By sanctifying grace we are children of God. Only by sanctifying grace do we have a right to heaven as our heritage. By purely natural good acts, such as even the sinner can perform, heaven cannot be merited as a reward; we must be in the state of grace, a child of God. Only after human nature has been united to God by grace and raised up above it’s own nature can good acts, which proceed from this supernaturally elevated nature, be directed towards the possession of God in the hereafter. Only in this way can we merit the vision of God in heaven, since it completely surpasses the powers of our pure human nature.

By sanctifying grace we become living members of the mystical body of Christ, one with Christ our Head. Thus our acts become acts of Christ, who, in an incomprehensible way, is living and working in his members. Through this intimate union with Christ, our Mediator before the Father, we merit the happiness of heaven.

Finally, sanctifying grace makes us temples of the Holy Spirit, who compels us to good works (Rom 8:14). St. Francis de Sales writes that the Holy Spirit performs good works in us with such consummate skill that the works belong more to him than to us. He works with us and we work with him. In this activity we use our free will. By our free will we submit all our human activity to the grace and will of God. By this act of reverence and worship, our good acts redound to the glory of God. Our will could also take a stand against God’s will, and commit sin.

Justification by faith alone absent from hope and charity is a meaningless concept that cannot be defended.
 
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Tong2020

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Belief-onlyism also omits the need to repent (Luke 13:3) and confess Matthew 10:32-33). All the belief only in the world will never save an impenitent person.

Faith is not what you seem to make it appear by what you say there.

Tong
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BreadOfLife

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1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

That sure is plain and clear, those born of God cannot sin. To say otherwise is to say that this Scriptures is false. To have this mean other than what it plainly says is to twist this scriptures and change the truth it declares. To argue against this, appealing to the reality that Christians still do sin, I think is rebellion against the truth of God's words in those scriptures.

It's good you mentioned Romans 7. You said "Romans 7 is about his sinning despite his not wanting to". That's right. And in your reading of Romans 7, did you learn of the reason why is that? Romans 7 explains why the Christian is said and seen to still do sinful acts. Not that, the child of God truly cannot sin, which contradicts 1 John 3:9. Consider what Paul says here and find out:

Romans 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Also, consider what Paul is saying here:

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Paul points to man's fleshly bodies as being still the problem of the child of God like Paul. Here's what he said concerning the flesh of man.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

So, of course Romans 7 is not saying that 1 John 3:9 is false. Nor does it make 1 John 3:9 to not mean what it plainly says. Scriptures does not contradict scriptures. Thus, I believe, as 1 John 3:9 says, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."


Tong
R0016
That's not so.

As I have shown - the Scripture are crystal clear that Christians still stumble in sin. In context - the Bible doesn't say that a Christian won't or can't sin. It states that we won't live a life of willful sin if we are in Christ.
1 John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


James 5:16

Therefore, CONFESS YOUR SINS to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed.

2 Cor. 2:10
“Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.

When it comes to sin - the difference between a Christian and a non-believer is that a Christian strives NOT to sin, yet stumbles from time to time.
A non-believer doesn't care.
 
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BreadOfLife

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I am just trying to see how you see God's foreknowledge. I am not arguing anything, at least not yet. For one, you speak of it as seeing and knowing the future. I know that already, and so that is not what I am asking. So, if you'll be kind enough to read again and see what I am asking and perhaps address it, I will greatly appreciate it.

This was and is my question:

Before all creation, can you tell us what to you is God's foreknowledge? What future does God knows ~ Is it of things He planned to do or is it of random things He didn't know will happen if not for His foreknowledge?

Yes you speak of God knowing which of us have chosen to follow Him and those who have chosen to reject Him. But that is not what I am asking about. My question is whether what you say God sees and knows in the future, perhaps such as Lucifer rebelling against Him and Eve's sinning and so of Adam's sinning, are things contained in His plan or are of random things He did not know will happen if not for His power of foreknowing.

Tong
R0017
Again - I believe my answer was comprehensive and covered every scenario.

God is outside of time and therefor is presents at every event in history - simultaneously.
He causes (plans) some things - and allows others because of our free will. He is not the author of evil.

Does that help?
 

RogerDC

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Amen

If I am saved because I was baptized. Then I can boast of saving myself

If I am saved because of the eucharist, I can boast of saving myself

If I am saved by acts of penance. Then I can boast in having saved myself

God gets no glory, Because God did not do the work.
Only a complete idiot would think like that. Personally, I've never heard of any kind of Christian who claimed he can save himself. Have you?
 

RogerDC

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Salvation by works implies that you teach we are saved by works, along with faith. The implication is not that you believe we are saved by works apart from any kind of faith whatsoever, so I'm not lying. Did you know it's a sin to slander? If you believe that we are saved by works (even if it's just in part) then you teach salvation by works, along with faith (faith + works). It simply means you include works into the equation. I'm yet to hear any "professing" Christian claim they are saved by works "apart from any kind of faith whatsoever" so this should be common sense.
Call it what it is - Catholics believe in salvation by faith and works, not salvation by works. Paul preached salvation by faith and works - he preached against salvation by works.
 

Illuminator

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I am just trying to see how you see God's foreknowledge. I am not arguing anything, at least not yet. For one, you speak of it as seeing and knowing the future. I know that already, and so that is not what I am asking. So, if you'll be kind enough to read again and see what I am asking and perhaps address it, I will greatly appreciate it.

This was and is my question:

Before all creation, can you tell us what to you is God's foreknowledge? What future does God knows ~ Is it of things He planned to do or is it of random things He didn't know will happen if not for His foreknowledge?

Yes you speak of God knowing which of us have chosen to follow Him and those who have chosen to reject Him. But that is not what I am asking about. My question is whether what you say God sees and knows in the future, perhaps such as Lucifer rebelling against Him and Eve's sinning and so of Adam's sinning, are things contained in His plan or are of random things He did not know will happen if not for His power of foreknowing.

Tong
R0017
Permit me to butt in.

Eph. 1:5 – Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. “Predestination” means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word “prooridzo” which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 – therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of “predestination” (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and “predetermination” (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 – God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain “elect” people to heaven. We all, as God’s children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God’s grace.

2 Peter 3:9 – God is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.

Matt. 18:14 – Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God’s image and likeness.

This should explain why "good works", which is love in action, cannot be separated from faith. "Works based Gospel" is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth, not to mention stupid and insulting.
 

Illuminator

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IV. CHRISTIAN HOLINESS

2012 "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."64

2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66 In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ's gift, so that . . . doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints.67

2014 Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called "mystical" because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - "the holy mysteries" - and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.

2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:
He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.69​

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71

footnotes:
64 Rom 8:28-30.
65 LG 40 § 2.
66 Mt 5:48.
67 LG 40 § 2.
68 Cf. 2 Tim 4.
69 St. Gregory of Nyssa, Hom. in Cant. 8 G 44,941C.
70 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1576.
71 Rev 21:2.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification
 
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Tong2020

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That's not so.

As I have shown - the Scripture are crystal clear that Christians still stumble in sin. In context - the Bible doesn't say that a Christian won't or can't sin. It states that we won't live a life of willful sin if we are in Christ.
1 John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


James 5:16

Therefore, CONFESS YOUR SINS to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed.

2 Cor. 2:10
“Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.

When it comes to sin - the difference between a Christian and a non-believer is that a Christian strives NOT to sin, yet stumbles from time to time.
A non-believer doesn't care.

That's a disagreement and a repeat of what I have rebutted. So, that's no rebuttal BreadOfLife. Had you read again Romans 7 yet?

The scriptures you quoted there sure testifies that the Christian still sins. And there's no denying that. But while you say that the Bible doesn't say that the Christian can't sin, here's what the Bible actually says:

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

I'd of course believe the words of God in scriptures anytime and everytime over the words of man whose words are contrary to God's. It brings to mind what Paul said elsewhere, "Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar."

As I said, Romans 7 explains why the Christian is said and seen to still do sinful acts. If you must refute that, I think you have not much of a choice but to deal with Romans 7 or at least my argument with it. Else, I think you would not be able to effectively refute, short of that.

Tong
R0019
 

Tong2020

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Again - I believe my answer was comprehensive and covered every scenario.

God is outside of time and therefor is presents at every event in history - simultaneously.
He causes (plans) some things - and allows others because of our free will. He is not the author of evil.

Does that help?
Well, if you insist. And if that's what you understand of my question, so be it then.

My question:

Before all creation, can you tell us what to you is God's foreknowledge? What future does God knows ~ Is it of things He planned to do or is it of random things He didn't know will happen if not for His foreknowledge?

As every careful reader would see, my question is whether what you say God sees and knows in the future, perhaps such as Lucifer rebelling against Him and Eve's sinning and so of Adam's sinning, are things contained in His plan or are of random things He did not know will happen if not for His power of foreknowing.

Before all creation, whatever future you are talking about that God sees ahead and knows, could only be that which God has determined to do (plan) and allowed to come to pass (accomplish according to His plan). So, having said that, God's foreknowledge could only be anything but what He determined to do (plan) and that which will come to pass according to His plan. There is nothing that happens that God does not know and does not allow to happen. There simply is no random event for God. God's foreknowledge is not of things that happens in random but of things which God has determined to do (plan) and allowed to come to pass (accomplish according to His plan). This is critical in that, an erroneous take with regards the foreknowledge of God leads to erroneous doctrines.


Tong
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Tong2020

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Permit me to butt in.

Eph. 1:5 – Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. “Predestination” means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word “prooridzo” which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 – therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of “predestination” (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and “predetermination” (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 – God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain “elect” people to heaven. We all, as God’s children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God’s grace.

2 Peter 3:9 – God is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.

Matt. 18:14 – Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God’s image and likeness.

This should explain why "good works", which is love in action, cannot be separated from faith. "Works based Gospel" is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth, not to mention stupid and insulting.

Greetings Illuminator! Yes you may butt in anytime, but please only within the current subject of discussion.

This was and is my question:

Before all creation, can you tell us what to you is God's foreknowledge? What future does God knows ~ Is it of things He planned to do or is it of random things He didn't know will happen if not for His foreknowledge?

Yes you speak of God knowing which of us have chosen to follow Him and those who have chosen to reject Him. But that is not what I am asking about. My question is whether what you say God sees and knows in the future, perhaps such as Lucifer rebelling against Him and Eve's sinning and so of Adam's sinning, are things contained in His plan or are of random things He did not know will happen if not for His power of foreknowing.

Perhaps it is just proper that you address that, if you were to butt in. Thank you.

Tong
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Illuminator

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Greetings Illuminator! Yes you may butt in anytime, but please only within the current subject of discussion.

This was and is my question:

Before all creation, can you tell us what to you is God's foreknowledge? What future does God knows ~ Is it of things He planned to do or is it of random things He didn't know will happen if not for His foreknowledge?

Yes you speak of God knowing which of us have chosen to follow Him and those who have chosen to reject Him. But that is not what I am asking about. My question is whether what you say God sees and knows in the future, perhaps such as Lucifer rebelling against Him and Eve's sinning and so of Adam's sinning, are things contained in His plan or are of random things He did not know will happen if not for His power of foreknowing.

Perhaps it is just proper that you address that, if you were to butt in. Thank you.

Tong
R0021
Your question remains ambiguous. God knows everything, He is outside of time; at the same time, He respects our free will. God did not plan The Fall, he planned that all of the offspring of Adam and Eve remain in the state of sanctifying grace. That is the norm. Sin entering the world is not the norm. That's why he sent a Savior, to restore what is normal (sanctifying grace). This is where Calvinism departs from the truth, because it presupposes that sin is the norm. (double predestination) That seems to be what you are implying with your ambiguous question. Please clarify.
 

Joseph77

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My question is whether what you say God sees and knows in the future, perhaps such as Lucifer rebelling against Him and Eve's sinning and so of Adam's sinning, are things contained in His plan or are of random things He did not know will happen if not for His power of foreknowing.
This is a circular, or improper question.

Since it is added "if not for his foreknowing" does not make sense -

due to God's Knowing All things, everything, since forever, about everything,

there is nothing at all created, or unknown, or ever random, or ever "He did not know", not ever, not even once at all.
 

Tong2020

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Your question remains ambiguous. God knows everything, He is outside of time; at the same time, He respects our free will. God did not plan The Fall, he planned that all of the offspring of Adam and Eve remain in the state of sanctifying grace. That is the norm. Sin entering the world is not the norm. That's why he sent a Savior, to restore what is normal (sanctifying grace). This is where Calvinism departs from the truth, because it presupposes that sin is the norm. (double predestination) That seems to be what you are implying with your ambiguous question. Please clarify.
Then let me clarify.

For you to grasp what I am asking, listen to what I said "Before all creation". So, that brings us at a specific point in eternity past when there was yet no creation. Of course God is not confined in time. But how else could we communicate if not in our language? So, using our language, let me say the following. Now, anything after that point could be said to be future. As to what this future is that you say God foreknows is what I am trying to understand from BreadOfLife and now from you. My question is whether what you say God sees and knows in the future (perhaps such as Lucifer rebelling against Him and Eve's sinning and so of Adam's sinning), are things contained in His plan or are of random things He did not know will happen if not for His power of foreknowing.

This is what I said to BreadOfLife. Before all creation, whatever future you are talking about that God sees ahead and knows, could only be that which God has determined to do (plan) and that will certainly come to pass (accomplish according to His plan). So, having said that, God's foreknowledge could only be anything but what He determined to do (plan) and that which will come to pass according to His plan. There is nothing that happens and come to pass that God does not know and not according to His will, purpose, pleasure, and glory. There simply is no random event for God. God's foreknowledge is not of things that happens in random but of things which God has determined to do (plan) and willed according to His purpose to come to pass (accomplish according to His plan). This is critical in that, an erroneous take with regards the foreknowledge of God leads to erroneous doctrines.

You said "God did not plan The Fall,...". So, are you suggesting that the Fall was some random event? That is not what I understand, when I read in scriptures that it is God who put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil inside the garden where He placed Adam and Eve, who gave commandment to Adam to not eat of the fruit of said tree, who allowed the devil (the serpent in Genesis 3) to tempt and deceive Eve. That is not random at all, don't you see?

You said "..he planned that all of the offspring of Adam and Eve remain in the state of sanctifying grace. That is the norm." What is that sanctifying grace you mention there? I understand by your statement that in this "sanctifying grace", those people from Adam to before the flood at Noah's time, were included, as well as those from Noah to the time before Jesus Christ came to the world. How have they remained in the state of "sanctifying grace" that you are talking about? Please explain, so I could understand what you are saying regarding that. And please explain what you meant when you say "that is the norm". It seems to be that you have some norm that you know and make as some sort of a foundation or some sort of a standard.

You said "Sin entering the world is not the norm. That's why he sent a Savior, to restore what is normal (sanctifying grace)." As I said, it seems to be that you have some norm that you know and make as some sort of a foundation or standard. Please tell and show where that is coming from. Please explain. Thanks.

Tong
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Tong2020

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This is a circular, or improper question.

Since it is added "if not for his foreknowing" does not make sense -

due to God's Knowing All things, everything, since forever, about everything,

there is nothing at all created, or unknown, or ever random, or ever "He did not know", not ever, not even once at all.

It seems that I got you somewhat confused by my statement as follows:

My question is whether what you say God sees and knows in the future, perhaps such as Lucifer rebelling against Him and Eve's sinning and so of Adam's sinning, are things contained in His plan or are of random things He did not know will happen if not for His power of foreknowing.

The phrase "if not for His power of foreknowing." is said in relation to any future random things or events (IF there are). That if ever there are such random future events, events that which are of course not known to God in the same way as He knows the things He planned and determined to happen, that He sure knows of them because of His power of foreknowing. That's just that. And that only would be an improper question when said in relation to man, but not to God.

Tong
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BreadOfLife

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That's a disagreement and a repeat of what I have rebutted. So, that's no rebuttal BreadOfLife. Had you read again Romans 7 yet?

The scriptures you quoted there sure testifies that the Christian still sins. And there's no denying that. But while you say that the Bible doesn't say that the Christian can't sin, here's what the Bible actually says:

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

I'd of course believe the words of God in scriptures anytime and everytime over the words of man whose words are contrary to God's. It brings to mind what Paul said elsewhere, "Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar."

As I said, Romans 7 explains why the Christian is said and seen to still do sinful acts. If you must refute that, I think you have not much of a choice but to deal with Romans 7 or at least my argument with it. Else, I think you would not be able to effectively refute, short of that.

Tong
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You are contradicting yourself.
First, you agree that the Bible states that a Christian STILL sins - then you say that the Bible insists that a Christian CANNOT sin.

Make up
your mind . . .