Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
where the church fails is when people go to church and their is false power. Fake, charisma, stirring up peoples emotions and claiming it is power of the HS.
That is not what Church is.
entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.
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That is not what Church is.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
yep. I agree 100%
So when the scripture tells us how loving and merciful God is, And shows us examples all over scripture of his loving kindness.
And we experience it.
Our feelings prove scripture.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
This can be confusing
right now - positional sanctification
not yet - conditional sanctification
Both are taught in scripture
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
We were sanctified (set apart unto God) when all our sin was cleansed at justification. The way Satan defines it through false teachers is overcoming sin is a life-long process of try and fail, and try again - human works. The power of the Holy Spirit makes it a done deal.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
yep
But it is not like what we see in alot of churches today.
I see all kinds of power in people from the HS. Out in the world.. where God is really working and he demands his church work..
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
The true evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is being dead to sin. The gifts are for our benefit to empower our ministry. And to hear God clearly.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Lets look at what God says
Heb 10: 14 for by one offering, he has perfected forever (positional sanctification or as you say, having our sins cleansed) those who are being (ongoing process) sanctified
Sanctification is a long process. Which will end in the final result. Or glorification.
We call it christian growth in my church, as a babe in Christ, become young children in Christ who become young adults in Christ, and eventually mature or as Paul calls it complete in Christ.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I was baptized by the holy spirit into the death and burial of Christ (romans 6) in the moment I had faith, that spiritual circumcision (col 2) washed my sins and enabled me to be renewed in new birth (Titus 3: 5) and put into or baptized into Christ (gal 3) and along with the rest of all of Gods children, was baptized into one body, the church (1 cor 12) and all of this was completed by the Holy Spirit. or is the literal baptism of the spirit which Jesus promised.
anyway, I do not want to get into a charismatic church debate, it is never productive or fruitful for either side, and only causes division
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
It is like "those who are being saved." Going from death to life through belief in Christ.
Your long process of sanctification implies that Holy Spirit is weak. Again - defeatism. But Jesus said, that to whom the Son makes free (from sin) is free indeed. Instant. John 8:32-36
Your growth is my becoming more and more like Christ in His love and the other fruit of the Spirit. Sin is already dealt with. Becoming like Christ, not only in sinlessness, but fruit, is glorification happening to us now before death.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
I teach Charismatic pastors. I'm not a denominationalist. There is just as much error in any Pentecostal denomination as there is in the liberal Reformationist churches.
All I want to debate you on is sin. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the same in your church as in my own beliefs. Except my Holy Spirit is more powerful than yours. LOL
Do you believe you can actually be sinless, as well as on your record against you? I'm not talking about perfection which is the glorification process.
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Obviously it can be. And you are definitely confused on the matter...as a case in point.
There is no such thing as a "positional" sanctification. That is an invention of religious men who seek to take away the attributes of God for themselves with the flick of a pen.
God is holy and they who enter into Christ have that very same holiness by being IN Him. It is immediate.
Jesus Christ IS our redemption and sanctification. But we need to be IN Him to experience this.
1 Cor. 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
No need for lies and obfuscations. Grace is given to men to walk as Jesus walked. They who say they abide in Christ ought to walk exactly as He did...same power, same life, same love.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
No.
The passage says he has perfected forever. It is a completed act. Those in christ are perfected forever.
They are also being sanctified. It is a work in progress
We are not born again and become super mature Christians perfect in all areas of our lived, We are born as babes.
It is God who sanctifies us, We are BEING SANCTIFIED not that we are sanctifying ourselfs. So how is that me saying the HS is weak?
Your growth is though trial, and tribulation. and learning patience and perseverance. And growing in faith, as the more you trust God. the more you realize God is faithful
I will be sinless when I get to heaven, Until then, I will nt worry about myself. I will seek to love and serve others. and Let God continue to grow me..
If your worried about becoming sinless. Your focus is on self. You need to take that focus, and put it on others.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
1 John 1: 8, if we say we have no sin (sinless) we deceive ourselves. and there is no truth in us.
I am not going to decieve myself into thinking I am something I am not
Do I think I can be sinless at times in my life? Well yes, When i follow the law of Love
Do i think I follow the law of love perfectly? No, That's why I am not sinless.
Is it Gods fault I am not sinless? of Course not. He continues to do what he promises to do..
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Can you define sin for me, what is sin in your view. explain it in what you think it is, we all know some verses of where it talks about sin, but what is sin in your view. in your words
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
so you do not think you have been perfected forever. Justified. Have been given eternal life.
Well that explains alot
This would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. You are taking a bad reading of a verse to mean what you want it to mean.
The Greek in that verse in Hebrews means...into forever....into eternity...them that are sanctified (made holy). So this verse is not about what you are twisting the meaning into. It's about the one offering and the power it has in eternity (never to be repeated) among they who are in Christ.
So the subject is about the offering...not your positional ideology. The offering is enough forever.
To be made holy means that there is no sin. God doesn't tolerate sin in His presence. And without His presence there is no holiness.
You have bought into a "sinful holiness"...positionally sinful...which is an invention of evil men. And the most evil men of all. It was religious ideology that put Jesus on the cross. And now the modern religionists deny the power of His resurrection in their own lives and that of others. These prefer the ideological illusions that have no cost to the one being indoctrinated. It's free and easy..and sinful. Hey, what's not to like?
So it would be better to be an open sinner than a religious illusionist that denies the actual power of holiness.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
So you do not believe in eternal security.
I find it odd you would claim this. especially considering that since I have been here, You have appeared to preach that very thing
Salvation, or "getting saved" is a long process. Which will end in the final result. Or glorification.
Is that true? If being made holy is a "long process" when Scripture in this rare instance uses a present tense, what are we to make of faith and belief and the New-Birth which are almost always in the present tense? Someone is apparently not saved today, it is a long process because God uses the present tense?
Hebrews 10:14 is not speaking of glorification, but being made holy here and now! The perfect tense tells us that by one offering, God has perfected (perfect tense, indicating a past action with continuing results up to this moment) forever, those who are (present tense) being made holy (now).
In context it is most likely speaking on the very same subject at the beginning of the verse as it does in the latter part. The perfect tense can tell us of the past up through the present, but it cannot extend beyond there. The present tense is a here and now action. The point that the passage is making is not that sanctification or perfection is a long drawn out process, but by that one Offering, what God has done in the past, continues, and He is doing so in the present in those that believe.
Most references in the New Testament concerning a Believer and holiness is in the aorist tense, indication a decisive action, and not a process. The starkest fact is that the New Testament does not know anything of a future tense holiness or sanctification. Holiness is not ever held out as a future even t in the Believer's life. Hoping in glorification for the completion of holiness is not what Scripture teaches.
Why would you believe in something that is not in the Bible?
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