entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[CharismaticLady]

If you think this, You have misunderstood what I have been saying and believe



Who said anything about guilt? I never even mentioned the word. Do I feel guilty when i sin? Heck yeah! Who does not

As for romans 8, It is clear

There is therefor now no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST

who are these people?

They are those who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

so not sure what your point is here

What is your "no guilt" about? Sins cleansed long ago? Or sins committed now and in the future?

 

[bbyrd009]

Eternal means forever

except in the Bible anyway, i sure agree!
But take us to a single instance of "eternal" in the Bible, and we can see the awful truth
that is if your saying as if you know doesnt tell you?

Matthew 25:46 Lexicon: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal
"
Cognate: 166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") – properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age); (figuratively) the unique quality (reality) of God's life at work in the believer, i.e. as the Lord manifests His self-existent life (as it is in His sinless abode of heaven). "Eternal (166 /aiṓnios) life operates simultaneously outside of time, inside of time, and beyond time – i.e. what gives time its everlasting meaning for the believer through faith, yet is also time-independent. See 165 (aiōn).

[166 (aiṓnios) does not focus on the future per se, but rather on the quality of the age (165 /aiṓn) it relates to. Thus believers live in "eternal (166 /aiṓnios) life" right now, experiencing this quality of God's life now as a present possession. (Note the Gk present tense of having eternal life in Jn 3:36, 5:24, 6:47; cf. Ro 6:23.)]

"aion; a space of time, an age"

I am not sure what else you want.

i have no desires here, and could not care less if you continue to believe that eternal means forever wadr
you are allowed to believe whatever you like imo, but that does not make it truth

there are no inbetweens.

priceless
ty

i agree, technically at least there are none, so time to change your mind i guess huh

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is a long study as there are two types of sin. 1 John 5:16-17 shows us there are sins unto death and sins not unto death. You've already stated that you believe sin unto death is unbelief. John is talking about Christian brethren. It is a Christian having no fear of the Lord, so willfully commits sins of lawlessness, 1 John 3:4, which God will judge. Hebrews 10:26-31.

(BTW, if you stop abbreviating your texts, we can mouse on top here and see the words.)

Sins not unto death are called trespasses (Leviticus 5:15) that separate us from each other. Causing hurt feelings, bitterness, etc. Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:14-15 that we MUST forgive each other and be reconciled with all the brethren. These are not sins of lawlessness - against God's written royal law - murder, stealing, sexual sins, etc.

To see how God dealt with the difference in the Old Testament read Deuteronomy 15:22-36.

1. I do not believe sin unto death is unbelief, where do you come up with this?
2. I believe sin until death is visible (if you see a brother sinning a sin which is not unto death) ie, it can be seen, An example would be the sin off drunkenness, which escalates into the sin of DUI, which escalates into the sinner getting into a crash and getting killed
3. A sin not unto death would look like this. the same man gets drunk, then escalates to the sin of DWI, then gets into a crash, But he dies not die. He is spared. and able to live another day

We have a very different view of what sin is, Even in these two examples. they are just examples or maybe explanations of a few types of sin.

I never asked that, I asked what you think sin is.

in other words, if I do this ___________ then i have sinned. Or if I have failed to do this _________ then it is sin

what is this?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What is your "no guilt" about? Sins cleansed long ago? Or sins committed now and in the future?

I have never said anything about guilt until you mentioned it. so why are we trying to discuss it?

I think you may be thinking about someone else?

 

[CharismaticLady]

No, the gifts are for the edification of others, when that which is perfect comes that which is in part is removed, in other words when perfect love comes love of self is overcome.

Ministry IS for others...???

 

[Waiting on him]

Ministry IS for others...???

Yep,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

except in the Bible anyway, i sure agree!
But take us to a single instance of "eternal" in the Bible, and we can see the awful truth
that is if your saying as if you know doesnt tell you?

Matthew 25:46 Lexicon: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal
"
Cognate: 166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") – properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age); (figuratively) the unique quality (reality) of God's life at work in the believer, i.e. as the Lord manifests His self-existent life (as it is in His sinless abode of heaven). "Eternal (166 /aiṓnios) life operates simultaneously outside of time, inside of time, and beyond time – i.e. what gives time its everlasting meaning for the believer through faith, yet is also time-independent. See 165 (aiōn).

[166 (aiṓnios) does not focus on the future per se, but rather on the quality of the age (165 /aiṓn) it relates to. Thus believers live in "eternal (166 /aiṓnios) life" right now, experiencing this quality of God's life now as a present possession. (Note the Gk present tense of having eternal life in Jn 3:36, 5:24, 6:47; cf. Ro 6:23.)]

"aion; a space of time, an age"

i have no desires here, and could not care less if you continue to believe that eternal means forever wadr
you are allowed to believe whatever you like imo, but that does not make it truth

priceless
ty

i agree, technically at least there are none, so time to change your mind i guess huh

yes lets do this

aionos

louw-nida - greek english lexicon of the New Testament based on semantic domains
67.96 ἀί̈διος, ον; αἰώνιος, ον: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time—‘eternal.’
ἀί̈διος: ἥ τε ἀί̈διος αὐτοῦ δύναμις καὶ θειότης ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1:20.
αἰώνιος: βληθῆναι εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18:8; τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16:26.
The most frequent use of αἰώνιος in the NT is with ζωή ‘life,’ for example, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3:15. In combination with ζωή there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αἰώνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αἰώνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Intermediate greek english lexicon - Liddell and Scott
αἰώνιος, ον and α, ον, lasting for an age (αἰών 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

in this case, the age is eternity, it is ever-lasting or without end

A Greek-english lexicon of the New Testament. Joseph Thayer
αἰώνιος, -ον, and (in 2 Th. 2:16; Heb. 9:12; Num. 25:13; Plat. Tim. p. 38 b. [see below]; Diod. i. 1; [cf. WH. App. p. 157; W. 69 (67); B. 26 (23)]) -ος, -α, -ον, (αἰών);
1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: θεός, Ro. 16:26, (ὁ μόνος αἰώνιος, 2 Macc. 1:25); πνεῦμα, Heb. 9:14.
2. without beginning: χρόνοις αἰωνίοις, Ro. 16:25; πρὸ χρό νων αἰωνίων, 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; εὐαγγέλιον a gospel whose subject-matter is eternal, i. e. the saving purpose of God adopted from eternity, Rev. 14:6.
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting: 2 Co. 4:18 (opp. to πρόσκαιρος); αἰώνιον αὐτόν, joined to thee forever as a sharer of the same eternal life, Philem. 15; βάρος δόξης, 2 Co. 4:17; βασιλεία, 2 Pet. 1:11; δόξα, 2 Tim. 2:10; 1 Pet. 5:10; ζωή (see ζωή, 2 b.); κληρονομία, Heb. 9:15; λύτρωσις, Heb. 9:12; παράκλησις, 2 Th. 2:16; σκηναί, abodes to be occupied forever, Lk. 16:9 (the habitations of the blessed in heaven are referred to, cf. Jn. 14:2, [also, dabo eis tabernacula aeterna, quae praeparaveram illis, 4 Esdr. (Fritzsche 5 Esdr.) 2:11]; similarly Hades is called αἰώνιος τόπος, Tob. 3:6, cf. Eccl. 12:5); σωτηρία, Heb. 5:9; [so Mk. 16. WH, in the (rejected) ‘Shorter Conclusion’]. Opposite ideas are: κόλασις, Mt. 25:46; κρίμα, Heb. 6:2; κρίσις, Mk. 3:29 (Rec. [but L T WH Tr txt. ἁμαρτήματος; in Acta Thom. § 47, p. 227 Tdf., ἔσται σοι τοῦτο εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν καὶ λύτρον αἰωνίων παραπτωμάτων, it has been plausibly conjectured we should read λύτρον αἰώνιον (cf. Heb. 9:12)]); ὄλεθρος [Lchm. txt. ὀλέθριος], 2 Th. 1:9, (4 Macc. 10:15); πῦρ, Mt. 25:41, (4 Macc. 12:12 αἰωνίῳ πυρὶ κ. βασάνοις, αἳ εἰς ὅλον τὸν αἰῶνα οὐκ ἀνήσουσίσε).
[Of the examples of αἰώνιος from Philo (with whom it is less common than ἀΐδιος, q. v., of which there are some fifty instances) the following are noteworthy: de mut. nom. § 2; de caritate § 17; κόλασις αἰ. frag. in Mang. ii. 667 fin. (Richter vi. 229 mid.); cf. de praem. ct poen. § 12. Other exx. are de alleg. leg. iii. § 70; de poster. Caini § 35; quod deus immut. § 30; quis rer. div. her. § 58; de congressu quaer. erud. § 19; de prof. § 38; de somn. ii. § 43; de Josepho § 24; quod omn. prob. lib. § 4, § 18; de ebrietate § 32; de Abrah. § 15; ζωὴ αἰ.: de prof. § 10; θεὸς (ὁ) αἰ.: de plantat. § 2, § 18 (bis), § 20 (bis); de mundo § 2. From Josephus: antt. 7, 14, 5; 12, 7, 3; 15, 10, 5; b. j. 1, 33, 2; 6, 2, 1; κλέος αἰ.: antt. 4, 6, 5; b. j. 3, 8, 5; μνήμη αἰ.: antt. 1, 13, 4; 6, 14, 4; 10, 11, 7; 15, 11, 1; οἶκον μὲν αἰώνιον ἔχεις (of God), antt. 8, 4, 2; ἐφυλάχθη ὁ Ἰωάννης δεσμοῖς αἰωνίοις, b. j. 6, 9, 4.
Syn. ἀΐδιος, αἰώνιος: ἀΐδ. covers the complete philosophic idea—without beginning and without end; also either without beginning or without end; as respects the past, it is applied to what has existed time out of mind. αἰώνιος (fr. Plato on) gives prominence to the immeasurableness of eternity (while such words as συνεχής continuous, unintermitted, διατελής perpetual, lasting to the end, are not so applicable to an abstract term, like αἰών); αἰώνιος accordingly is esp. adapted to supersensnous things, see the N. T. Cf. Tim. Locr. 96 c. θεὸν δὲ τὸν μὲν αἰώνιον νόος ὁρῆ μόνος etc.; Plat. Tim. 37 d. (and Stallbaum ad loc.); 38 b. c.; legg. x. p. 904 a. ἀνώλεθρον δὲ ὂν γενόμενον, ἀλλʼ οὐκ αἰώνιον. Cf. also Plato’s διαιώνιος (Tim. 38 b.; 39 e.). Schmidt ch. 45.]

 

[bbyrd009]

yes lets do this

aionos

louw-nida - greek english lexicon of the New Testament based on semantic domains
67.96 ἀί̈διος, ον; αἰώνιος, ον: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time—‘eternal.’
ἀί̈διος: ἥ τε ἀί̈διος αὐτοῦ δύναμις καὶ θειότης ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1:20.
αἰώνιος: βληθῆναι εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18:8; τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16:26.
The most frequent use of αἰώνιος in the NT is with ζωή ‘life,’ for example, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3:15. In combination with ζωή there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αἰώνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αἰώνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Intermediate greek english lexicon - Liddell and Scott
αἰώνιος, ον and α, ον, lasting for an age (αἰών 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

in this case, the age is eternity, it is ever-lasting or without end

A Greek-english lexicon of the New Testament. Joseph Thayer
αἰώνιος, -ον, and (in 2 Th. 2:16; Heb. 9:12; Num. 25:13; Plat. Tim. p. 38 b. [see below]; Diod. i. 1; [cf. WH. App. p. 157; W. 69 (67); B. 26 (23)]) -ος, -α, -ον, (αἰών);
1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: θεός, Ro. 16:26, (ὁ μόνος αἰώνιος, 2 Macc. 1:25); πνεῦμα, Heb. 9:14.
2. without beginning: χρόνοις αἰωνίοις, Ro. 16:25; πρὸ χρό νων αἰωνίων, 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; εὐαγγέλιον a gospel whose subject-matter is eternal, i. e. the saving purpose of God adopted from eternity, Rev. 14:6.
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting: 2 Co. 4:18 (opp. to πρόσκαιρος); αἰώνιον αὐτόν, joined to thee forever as a sharer of the same eternal life, Philem. 15; βάρος δόξης, 2 Co. 4:17; βασιλεία, 2 Pet. 1:11; δόξα, 2 Tim. 2:10; 1 Pet. 5:10; ζωή (see ζωή, 2 b.); κληρονομία, Heb. 9:15; λύτρωσις, Heb. 9:12; παράκλησις, 2 Th. 2:16; σκηναί, abodes to be occupied forever, Lk. 16:9 (the habitations of the blessed in heaven are referred to, cf. Jn. 14:2, [also, dabo eis tabernacula aeterna, quae praeparaveram illis, 4 Esdr. (Fritzsche 5 Esdr.) 2:11]; similarly Hades is called αἰώνιος τόπος, Tob. 3:6, cf. Eccl. 12:5); σωτηρία, Heb. 5:9; [so Mk. 16. WH, in the (rejected) ‘Shorter Conclusion’]. Opposite ideas are: κόλασις, Mt. 25:46; κρίμα, Heb. 6:2; κρίσις, Mk. 3:29 (Rec. [but L T WH Tr txt. ἁμαρτήματος; in Acta Thom. § 47, p. 227 Tdf., ἔσται σοι τοῦτο εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν καὶ λύτρον αἰωνίων παραπτωμάτων, it has been plausibly conjectured we should read λύτρον αἰώνιον (cf. Heb. 9:12)]); ὄλεθρος [Lchm. txt. ὀλέθριος], 2 Th. 1:9, (4 Macc. 10:15); πῦρ, Mt. 25:41, (4 Macc. 12:12 αἰωνίῳ πυρὶ κ. βασάνοις, αἳ εἰς ὅλον τὸν αἰῶνα οὐκ ἀνήσουσίσε).
[Of the examples of αἰώνιος from Philo (with whom it is less common than ἀΐδιος, q. v., of which there are some fifty instances) the following are noteworthy: de mut. nom. § 2; de caritate § 17; κόλασις αἰ. frag. in Mang. ii. 667 fin. (Richter vi. 229 mid.); cf. de praem. ct poen. § 12. Other exx. are de alleg. leg. iii. § 70; de poster. Caini § 35; quod deus immut. § 30; quis rer. div. her. § 58; de congressu quaer. erud. § 19; de prof. § 38; de somn. ii. § 43; de Josepho § 24; quod omn. prob. lib. § 4, § 18; de ebrietate § 32; de Abrah. § 15; ζωὴ αἰ.: de prof. § 10; θεὸς (ὁ) αἰ.: de plantat. § 2, § 18 (bis), § 20 (bis); de mundo § 2. From Josephus: antt. 7, 14, 5; 12, 7, 3; 15, 10, 5; b. j. 1, 33, 2; 6, 2, 1; κλέος αἰ.: antt. 4, 6, 5; b. j. 3, 8, 5; μνήμη αἰ.: antt. 1, 13, 4; 6, 14, 4; 10, 11, 7; 15, 11, 1; οἶκον μὲν αἰώνιον ἔχεις (of God), antt. 8, 4, 2; ἐφυλάχθη ὁ Ἰωάννης δεσμοῖς αἰωνίοις, b. j. 6, 9, 4.
Syn. ἀΐδιος, αἰώνιος: ἀΐδ. covers the complete philosophic idea—without beginning and without end; also either without beginning or without end; as respects the past, it is applied to what has existed time out of mind. αἰώνιος (fr. Plato on) gives prominence to the immeasurableness of eternity (while such words as συνεχής continuous, unintermitted, διατελής perpetual, lasting to the end, are not so applicable to an abstract term, like αἰών); αἰώνιος accordingly is esp. adapted to supersensnous things, see the N. T. Cf. Tim. Locr. 96 c. θεὸν δὲ τὸν μὲν αἰώνιον νόος ὁρῆ μόνος etc.; Plat. Tim. 37 d. (and Stallbaum ad loc.); 38 b. c.; legg. x. p. 904 a. ἀνώλεθρον δὲ ὂν γενόμενον, ἀλλʼ οὐκ αἰώνιον. Cf. also Plato’s διαιώνιος (Tim. 38 b.; 39 e.). Schmidt ch. 45.]

well, he who seeks to save his soul will lose it right, so i mean believe what you like, i am not disagreeing that "eternal" and "forever" share a synonym--for Yah tho, prolly not for us.
From eternity, to eternity is a description of Yah, not us. My guess is all that up there was written by someone who wants to become an immortal too?

 

[bbyrd009]

In such contexts, αἰώνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αἰώνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

i mean there it is right

 

[Eternally Grateful]

well, he who seeks to save his soul will lose it right, so i mean believe what you like, i am not disagreeing that "eternal" and "forever" share a synonym--for Yah tho, prolly not for us.
From eternity, to eternity is a description of Yah, not us. My guess is all that up there was written by someone who wants to become an immortal too?

I do not seek to save my soul

God already saved it.

As for eternity. While we have a beginning, Scripture suggests we will have no end. We were not created to die. Death occurred because Adam sinned.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

i mean there it is right

It is suggesting that eternal life can be confused as never dying physically Which is why the term confuses some people

God never promised we would never die physically But in John 3 and John 6. He did promise we would never die.

so it must be a spiritual context. not physical

 

[bbyrd009]

I do not seek to save my soul

God already saved it.

bam go with that then, but wadr you cannot Quote that from the Bible, no kind of way; it is an illusion, that Scripture allows you to hold, if you seek to go up to heaven after you have died, which is called "Mithraism" or "Cult of Sol Invictus." Many ppl want to become immortal, and have joined Christianity in that hope, but your bargain with the grave will be annulled and all of the other, obvious vv that say otherwise will be ignored by them
too
Fwiw you can google "Mithraism and" which will even auto-complete for "Christianity"

As for eternity. While we have a beginning, Scripture suggests we will have no end. We were not created to die. Death occurred because Adam sinned.

spiritual death, sure, but obviously since There is only One Immortal, ashes to ashes is the fate of every soul (life), else procreation and a whole host of other normal activities would not be possible.

Yah did not save your soul, wadr; I came that you might have soul, more abundantly
.

It is suggesting that eternal life can be confused as never dying physically Which is why the term confuses some people

God never promised we would never die physically But in John 3 and John 6. He did promise we would never die.

so it must be a spiritual context. not physical

"life" = "soul" in Scripture, right? But sure, the spirit goes back to Yah, Who gave it

 

[bbyrd009]

It is suggesting that eternal life can be confused as never dying physically Which is why the term confuses some people

God never promised we would never die physically But in John 3 and John 6. He did promise we would never die.

so it must be a spiritual context. not physical

so, while i personally would love to think that what i identify as my "self" or iow my ego might become immortal after i have physically died, i suggest that the "dying" we are called to do while we are still alive, "die to self," is likely the death of the ego, as has been noted here before. And once that is accomplished, the worries about Living Forever mostly go away, although it is something that continually surfaces, hence "die daily."

but for now imo we might reflect upon our "bargain with death," that we enter into in the (Catholic) interpretation, which was blended with Mithraism by Augustus, and hardly a secret i guess. The ancient Israelites had no conception of this, surely.

 

[marks]

so, while i personally would love to think that what i identify as my "self" or iow my ego might become immortal after i have physically died, i suggest that the "dying" we are called to do while we are still alive, "die to self," is likely the death of the ego, as has been noted here before. And once that is accomplished, the worries about Living Forever mostly go away, although it is something that continually surfaces, hence "die daily."

but for now imo we might reflect upon our "bargain with death," that we enter into in the (Catholic) interpretation, which was blended with Mithraism by Augustus, and hardly a secret i guess. The ancient Israelites had no conception of this, surely.

. . . close your eyes . . . go back to sleep . . . there is no such thing as, He who lives and believes in me will never die . . .

You will not leave my soul in hell . . . surely!

 

[bbyrd009]

. . . close your eyes . . . go back to sleep . . . there is no such thing as, He who lives and believes in me will never die . . .

You will not leave my soul in hell . . . surely!

hmm, i would contrast that with Samuel, who is it that disturbs my rest, and suggest that a characterization is being misconscrewed there in Psalms wadr;
The LORD is my chosen portion and my cup; you hold my lot.
The land you have given me is a pleasant land. What a wonderful inheritance!
see, right there, same psalm? and the whole rest of the psalm runs in that vein?
so, i mean i dunno, but you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead can easily = "you won't take me prematurely" or whatever, but should be obvious that your rendering collides with other Scriptures too

"In Hebrew, one's soul was not some ghostly ethereal essence, but rather one's condition of being alive..."
The amazing name Sheol: meaning and etymology ,
The concept of Sheol

which i guess has changed for us, who refer to Hades now (an extant Greek god)(but "only" Scripture is profitable for yadayada lol), and ive forgot the point now but so there

 

[bbyrd009]

oh ya, sure, we will have times of trouble, too, but You will not leave my soul in hell

and i would not accept that in a vacuum, either, but for all the others that would have to be ignored

 

[justbyfaith]

So which among these options do you personally believe, that we can exterminate the sin nature while it is in us in order to do righteousness? Or is it that in the midst of our inherent sin we do righteousness?

Sin is like a monster within us that does our sinning for us (see Romans 7:17,20). If we kill that monster, then it can no longer sin within us...which is not to say that the monster does not still exist. However it is dead...so it can no longer sin or force us to sin...it is rendered inept through the crucifixion of the flesh (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8).

But in reality, I believe we do have to sin in the sense that we are inherently sinful, and do commit sins.

We do not have to sin. We are not debtors to the flesh to live according to it (Romans 8:12-13).

We become mature, and in that sense "perfect," but we do not become sinless--not even for a moment.

Yes...no one is without sin...however the element of sin can be rendered dead, even inept within us so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour.

We have the sin nature, and therefore we *will* sin,

No. We do not have to sin; and I believe that this is what John is saying by his semi-hyperbolic statement in 1 John 3:9.

In either case, the Christian has the sin nature and never becomes perfect until the resurrection.

See Hebrews 10:10 and Hebrews 10:14. In the first verse, we (referring to the apostles) *are* sanctified; in the second, He has perfected for ever those who are sanctified.

The idea of having the ability to 100% avoid sin throughout our lives, despite the existence of the sin nature, seems to be what you're advocating? My argument against this is that just *having the sin nature* means we must, in some sense, sin.

Having the sin nature does not mean that we must sin. Sin is renderd dead within those who are sanctified (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8); so that it no longer has any authority over our behaviour.

And that's what John is saying in 1 John, that we *must* sin to some degree,

No. That is what many people *think* 1 John 1:8 is saying; however if it is saying that, then it is in contradiction to 1 John 3:4-9. And there are no contradictions in the Bible.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi justbyfaith,

Question on this part . . . you are saying that we "can indeed be perfected so that we cannot sin", referencing 1 Johh 3:9, whosoever is born of God doeth no sin . . . he cannot sin. This seems to me to be speaking of something true of the one born of God, but you are saying we are becoming that?

Much love!

I believe that John is using hyperbole to a certain extent in 1 John 3:9...what he is saying is that when you become born again, you make a 180-degree turn away from sin, hell, death, and the devil, towards righteousness, heaven, life, and God.

You are now walking in another direction, you are not headed towards sin.

As it is written,

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

I would say that if you are not walking in the direction of sin, you are going to sin less and less as time passes; and I don't think that reaching the plateau of being made perfect will immediately put it on God's heart to take you home. You will still be of use to Him in that you will be able to strip away the excuse that some people have that "Christians are hypocrites". If they see you, as a believer, living a perfect life, that excuse will be taken away from them.

 

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I believe that John is using hyperbole to a certain extent in 1 John 3:9...what he is saying is that when you become born again, you make a 180-degree turn away from sin, hell, death, and the devil, towards righteousness, heaven, life, and God.

You are now walking in another direction, you are not headed towards sin.

As it is written,

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

I would say that if you are not walking in the direction of sin, you are going to sin less and less as time passes; and I don't think that reaching the plateau of being made perfect will immediately put it on God's heart to take you home. You will be of use to Him in that you will be able to strip away the excuse that some people have that "Christians are hypocrites". If they see you, as a believer, living a perfect life, that excuse will be taken away from them.

OK, thank you for explaining this.

Much love!

 

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Sin is like a monster within us that does our sinning for us (see Romans 7:17,20). If we kill that monster, then it can no longer sin within us...which is not to say that the monster does not still exist. However it is dead...so it can no longer sin or force us to sin...it is rendered inept through the crucifixion of the flesh (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8).

Personally I see the flesh being just that, our flesh. Our bodies. Which we will be in until they die.

Not to say that we cannot have self-control.

Much love!