entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Eternally Grateful]

Salvation, or "getting saved" is a long process. Which will end in the final result. Or glorification.

Is that true? If being made holy is a "long process" when Scripture in this rare instance uses a present tense, what are we to make of faith and belief and the New-Birth which are almost always in the present tense? Someone is apparently not saved today, it is a long process because God uses the present tense?

Hebrews 10:14 is not speaking of glorification, but being made holy here and now! The perfect tense tells us that by one offering, God has perfected (perfect tense, indicating a past action with continuing results up to this moment) forever, those who are (present tense) being made holy (now).

In context it is most likely speaking on the very same subject at the beginning of the verse as it does in the latter part. The perfect tense can tell us of the past up through the present, but it cannot extend beyond there. The present tense is a here and now action. The point that the passage is making is not that sanctification or perfection is a long drawn out process, but by that one Offering, what God has done in the past, continues, and He is doing so in the present in those that believe.

Most references in the New Testament concerning a Believer and holiness is in the aorist tense, indication a decisive action, and not a process. The starkest fact is that the New Testament does not know anything of a future tense holiness or sanctification. Holiness is not ever held out as a future even t in the Believer's life. Hoping in glorification for the completion of holiness is not what Scripture teaches.

I have been saved (a completed action also known as justification or positional sanctification) rom 8, eph 2, titus 3, 2 tim 2
I am being saved (an ongoing action - conditional sanctification) acts 2, 1 cor 1, 1 cor 2 .
I will be saved (glorification) acts 15, rom 5

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why would you believe in something that is not in the Bible?

Why would you say this? If I believes something not in scripture. I would believe like you?

 

[bbyrd009]

The unforgiveable sin is unbelief

i doubt it--particularly since you say that as if you know, wadr, that is very telling to me--although it might be lack of faith, but then that would not exactly be "blasphemy" i guess, but maybe, dunno

He who believes is not condemns, He who does not believe is condemned already

no "believe" in that v at all wadr, sorry

 

[bbyrd009]

Fake, charisma, stirring up peoples emotions

Our feelings prove scripture.

 

[bbyrd009]

I will be sinless when I get to heaven

dont hold your breath then, k,
No one has ever gone up to heaven,
and i guess you wont either
you and your sons will be here with me
the kingdom of heaven is obviously not where you think it is, wadr
your bargain with death will be annulled
.

So you do not believe in eternal security.

aion, a space of time, an age, from eternity to eternity
.

so, as i can see you are a dedicated Mithraist who i guess is not even trying very hard yet ima move on, hope you marinate on some of that Scripture, and best of luck in your quest for immortality ok

Why would you say this? If I believes something not in scripture. I would believe like you?

well i guess we are all deceived, but i would ask for a Quote there,

eternal security.

 

[Waiting on him]

The true evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is being dead to sin. The gifts are for our benefit to empower our ministry. And to hear God clearly.

No, the gifts are for the edification of others, when that which is perfect comes that which is in part is removed, in other words when perfect love comes love of self is overcome.

 

[marks]

Basing it on failure is a losing proposition.

It's best to start with Scripture to test what we experience, instead of using our experience to interpret Scripture.

What failure are you talking about?

We always start with Scripture. I'm not talking about using experience to interpret Scripture, quite the opposite in fact. Let me try to restate.

We see God's power in our lives as we read Scripture, and see that the things God teaches us that He does for us, and in us, that these things are real in our lives. That we read the words of our new life, and see our lives described in those words we read. This is the power of God in us.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

We talky-talk in facts and proof when in reality we dont know squat, and should be watching how we say stuff
i guess
guard your speech iow prolly

 

[Eternally Grateful]

i doubt it--particularly since you say that as if you know, wadr, that is very telling to me--although it might be lack of faith, but then that would not exactly be "blasphemy" i guess, but maybe, dunno

no "believe" in that v at all wadr, sorry

John 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[Eternally Grateful]

..

Way to take my comment out of context.

is this not being dishonest my friend?

 

[marks]

Where people fail is when someone is going to church and not experiencing any power, they believe there is no power to be had. Then they base the reliability of the Bible on their own experience. You are right.

Of course that's got nothing to do with what I said.

 

[bbyrd009]

John 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

yes but wadr the def of "eternal" has somehow become "forever" in the interim, when a holistic reading of Scripture makes that moot, as your not addressing the Scriptures i Quoted makes rather evident? I mean those are Scripture too, right? Do you think "nevermind that, what about this" is a proper address?

 

[Episkopos]

What failure are you talking about?

We always start with Scripture. I'm not talking about using experience to interpret Scripture, quite the opposite in fact. Let me try to restate.

We see God's power in our lives as we read Scripture, and see that the things God teaches us that He does for us, and in us, that these things are real in our lives. That we read the words of our new life, and see our lives described in those words we read. This is the power of God in us.

Much love!

Of course God helps us...but He also helps everyone in the world if they would pay attention.

But the power of God as per the bible is on a whole other level.

Like what pray tell is a testimony of His resurrection power?


The problem with this is ...who is measuring the scale? What are we doing that people in other religions and people without religion also doing? Delivering us from bad habits...external sins...while often replacing these for deeper and darker religious sins that make us worse than before in God's eyes?

Are we overcoming a drinking problem? Well so are Hindus and Buddhists...and doing it very well.

So have we not merely lowered the standard of Christ to an IMPROVING of a human behaviour from ridiculously canal...to less carnal? But all the while missing the power of Christ to walk as He walked?

So then our improvements do not add up to walking as Jesus walked.

So the standard goes like this...

Always learning but never coming into the knowledge of the truth. Lowering the standard of Christ until it resembles our present experience. Christianity has settled for being a religion of the middle class. So we have given over the behaviour of a Christian to other religions in favour of the obscure and misleading salvation status. So instead of being convicted by others in our own lack of character we smugly hide ourselves behind our "saved" status where we think we are safe from having to actually conform to Christ in our lives.

 

[bbyrd009]

Way to take my comment out of context.

is this not being dishonest my friend?

man, all i did was post a couple of quotes? That i maybe misunderstood, sure! Bam rectify the apparent discrepancy, i am making no suppositions there ok

 

[bbyrd009]

Of course God helps us...but He also helps everyone in the world if they would pay attention.

But the power of God as per the bible is on a whole other level.

Like what pray tell is a testimony of His resurrection power?


The problem with this is ...who is measuring the scale? What are we doing that people in other religions and people without religion also doing? Delivering us from bad habits...external sins...while often replacing these for deeper and darker religious sins that make us worse than before in God's eyes?

Are we overcoming a drinking problem? Well so are Hindus and Buddhists...and doing it very well.

So have we not merely lowered the standard of Christ to an IMPROVING of a human behaviour from ridiculously canal...to less carnal? But all the while missing the power of Christ to walk as He walked?

So then our improvements do not add up to walking as Jesus walked.

So the standard goes like this...

Always learning but never coming into the knowledge of the truth. Lowering the standard of Christ until it resembles my present experience. Christianity has settled for being a religion of the middle class. So we have given over the behaviour of a Christian to other religions in favour of the obscure and misleading salvation status. So instead of being convicted by others in our own lack of character we smugly hide ourselves behind our "saved" status where we think we are safe from having to actually conform to Christ in our lives.

word imo,
Understand why the pimps and hos are beating you in!

 

[CharismaticLady]

No.

The passage says he has perfected forever. It is a completed act. Those in christ are perfected forever.

They are also being sanctified. It is a work in progress

We are not born again and become super mature Christians perfect in all areas of our lived, We are born as babes.

It is God who sanctifies us, We are BEING SANCTIFIED not that we are sanctifying ourselfs. So how is that me saying the HS is weak?

Your growth is though trial, and tribulation. and learning patience and perseverance. And growing in faith, as the more you trust God. the more you realize God is faithful

I will be sinless when I get to heaven, Until then, I will nt worry about myself. I will seek to love and serve others. and Let God continue to grow me..

If your worried about becoming sinless. Your focus is on self. You need to take that focus, and put it on others.

I disagree. And it seems I was too quick to think we were on the same page about your "no guilt." It is just as I thought the first time.

If we don't sin, we have nothing to feel guilty about. That is a given. But that is not what you are saying. You are more concerned about the guilt associated with sinning which turns the grace of God into lasciviousness.

Where is your scripture on "no guilt" so don't worry about sinning? I base my teaching and assurance on 1 John 3:21-24, which through the Spirit taking away any desire to sin, I can have a clear conscience.

21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Romans 8:1-9
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[marks]

So have we not merely lowered the standard of Christ to an IMPROVING of a human behaviour from ridiculously canal...to less carnal? But all the while missing the power of Christ to walk as He walked?

That would indeed be missing the point!

Lowering the standard of Christ until it resembles our present experience.

This is truly sad, and the result of a very weak faith in my thinking, fueled by very poor teaching.

we smugly hide ourselves behind our "saved" status where we think we are safe from having to actually conform to Christ in our lives.

That of course is wrong thinking. It's as if we want what Jesus offers but not Him.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

yes but wadr the def of "eternal" has somehow become "forever" in the interim, when a holistic reading of Scripture makes that moot, as your not addressing the Scriptures i Quoted makes rather evident? I mean those are Scripture too, right? Do you think "nevermind that, what about this" is a proper address?

Eternal means forever

Jesus said we HAVE it, John said we had it in multiple places in his writings including in his first epistle (i write these things to you so you maye know you HAVE eternal life)

I am not sure what else you want.

Either what Jesus promised is true and what John said we can know is true

or they lied

there are no inbetweens.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I disagree. And it seems I was too quick to think we were on the same page about your "no guilt." It is just as I thought the first time.

If we don't sin, we have nothing to feel guilty about. That is a given. But that is not what you are saying. You are more concerned about the guilt associated with sinning which turns the grace of God into lasciviousness.

If you think this, You have misunderstood what I have been saying and believe

Where is your scripture on "no guilt" so don't worry about sinning? I base my teaching and assurance on 1 John 3:21-24, which through the Spirit taking away any desire to sin, I can have a clear conscience.

21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Romans 8:1-9
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Who said anything about guilt? I never even mentioned the word. Do I feel guilty when i sin? Heck yeah! Who does not

As for romans 8, It is clear

There is therefor now no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST

who are these people?

They are those who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

so not sure what your point is here

 

[CharismaticLady]

Can you define sin for me, what is sin in your view. explain it in what you think it is, we all know some verses of where it talks about sin, but what is sin in your view. in your words

That is a long study as there are two types of sin. 1 John 5:16-17 shows us there are sins unto death and sins not unto death. You've already stated that you believe sin unto death is unbelief. John is talking about Christian brethren. It is a Christian having no fear of the Lord, so willfully commits sins of lawlessness, 1 John 3:4, which God will judge. Hebrews 10:26-31.

(BTW, if you stop abbreviating your texts, we can mouse on top here and see the words.)

Sins not unto death are called trespasses (Leviticus 5:15) that separate us from each other. Causing hurt feelings, bitterness, etc. Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:14-15 that we MUST forgive each other and be reconciled with all the brethren. These are not sins of lawlessness - against God's written royal law - murder, stealing, sexual sins, etc.

To see how God dealt with the difference in the Old Testament read Deuteronomy 15:22-36.