con·trol
/kənˈtrōl/
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noun
1.
the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events.
"the whole operation is under the control of a production manager"
Now, apply this to a Being with ultimate, complete power. I know, Christians constantly say it. "God is in control." I'm also sure they really don't mean it as complete control, but only as God being able to bring things to a certain conclusion despite men's rebellion.
As Tozer put it so well: "“God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. ... Man's will is free because God is sovereign."
A.W. Tozer believed providence was like a cruise ship. The ship’s final destination is settled and certain (that’s providence). But on the open water, what we each do on the ship is open to our own free volition.
On the other hand, John Piper takes it much farther:
"There is no human ultimate self-determination. Only God has ultimate self-determination. We are free in the sense that we can do whatever we choose, but ultimately God governs what we choose. We are not God, and we cannot veto God."
If we have no self-determination whatsoever, I think you would agree that any talk of free will is really just nonsense, and we are actually puppets.
I believe Tozer is much closer to the Biblical truth of the matter. I would recommend his book "The pursuit of God" to anyone, BTW.
Renniks: control ~
the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events.
"the whole operation is under the control of a production manager"
Do you see power to choose for people there? No, right? The definition you quoted says power to influence; power to direct, but not power to decide for people or choose for people.
Renniks: Now, apply this to a Being with ultimate, complete power. I know, Christians constantly say it. "God is in control." I'm also sure they really don't mean it as complete control, but only as God being able to bring things to a certain conclusion despite men's rebellion.
I have. And the definition perfectly fits in what Christians say, that "God is in control". They don't mean to say by that, that God decides for them or that God chooses for them, or that they are puppets. Now, who else is in control? Are you, I mean, is man in control?
Tozer: “God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. ... Man's will is free because God is sovereign."
Since you quoted Tozer, it means you agree with what he said there. And perhaps, having quoted him, you can defend and explain what it is you quoted from him.
When did God decreed that? Did He decree that before the fall of Adam? Please cite scriptures if that statement is actually based in scriptures.
"Man's will is free because God is sovereign." Can you explain what that means to us in your own words?
John Piper: "We are free in the sense that we can do whatever we choose, but ultimately God governs what we choose. We are not God, and we cannot veto God."
Since you quoted John Piper, it means you agree with what he said there. And perhaps, having quoted him, you can defend and explain what it is you quoted from him.
Please expound on the statement "We are free in the sense that we can do whatever we choose, but ultimately God governs what we choose." After that, tell us what he meant by
" We are not God, and we cannot veto God".
Renniks: If we have no self-determination whatsoever, I think you would agree that any talk of free will is really just nonsense, and we are actually puppets.
Had we talked about self-determination? I don't think we did. This is again a new one that you brought up. We talked about "free will" but not self-determination. Self-determination is within man's "free will", but "free will" is not necessarily self-determination.
Also, about being puppets, let me ask what you believe, do animals have free will?
Tong
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