1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, chosen 2chosen by the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance. 3
Saved Or Predestined ???
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Post #687, the one you replied to and claimed I didn't explain what I mean by "control".
con·trol
/kənˈtrōl/
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noun
1.
the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events.
"the whole operation is under the control of a production manager"
Now, apply this to a Being with ultimate, complete power. I know, Christians constantly say it. "God is in control." I'm also sure they really don't mean it as complete control, but only as God being able to bring things to a certain conclusion despite men's rebellion.
As Tozer put it so well: "“God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. ... Man's will is free because God is sovereign."
A.W. Tozer believed providence was like a cruise ship. The ship’s final destination is settled and certain (that’s providence). But on the open water, what we each do on the ship is open to our own free volition.
On the other hand, John Piper takes it much farther:
"There is no human ultimate self-determination. Only God has ultimate self-determination. We are free in the sense that we can do whatever we choose, but ultimately God governs what we choose. We are not God, and we cannot veto God."
If we have no self-determination whatsoever, I think you would agree that any talk of free will is really just nonsense, and we are actually puppets.
I believe Tozer is much closer to the Biblical truth of the matter. I would recommend his book "The pursuit of God" to anyone, BTW.
That is spoken of those who already had been converted, so they are not beyond conversion.
Secondly, I believe that God is powerful than all, so that, there is no heart hard enough that God could not on purpose convict, convince, and convert. And I believe that God is infinitely and perfectly wise, so that, He would not run out of ways convict, convince, and convert the sinner on purpose.
Tong
R0194
Obviously, you are reading in your definition of foreknowledge there. We have been there already and it won't do any good to go in that discussion again, as we will just go in circles.
And notice to whom Peter says that, "parepidemois Diasporas". Actually, your other sense of "foreknowing" that you pointed out last time, is what definition actually what fits well in that scriptures.
As I pointed out, and which you ignored, never did any of the apostles, not Paul even, testified that they were chosen by God because God knew that they will believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. You ignore that in fact, Paul did not believe the gospel, and took that even further as regarding the gospel as heretical with respect to Judaism, as to even, with zeal, persecute the church himself, and lead such persecution. You ignore the fact that it took a miracle at the Damascus road involving Paul himself, for Jesus to convict, convince, and convert him. You ignore the fact that regarding the apostles, such as with Thomas, who did not believe that Jesus Christ had risen from the dead, that if Jesus had not shown Himself to him, Thomas did not believe. You apparently refuse to set your eyes on God, that you apparently ignore or not give any attention on how God works out things so that those whom He had chosen will believe the gospel, Instead you fix and set your eyes on the "free will" and the believing of the chosen, and immersing yourself on the believer and not on God who convicts, convince, and converts the man to whom he wills to have mercy upon.
You also apparently ignore the fact that the apostles were chosen for salvation, and that by God's grace and not because they deserve it in any way because of having done something that somehow compels and forces God to save them, and that they were all called for ministry. You also apparently ignore that the Christians were chosen for salvation, and that by God's grace and not because they deserve it in any way because of having done something that somehow compels and forces God to save them, and that they were all called for ministry.
Well,...
Tong
R0195
Renniks: control ~ the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events.
"the whole operation is under the control of a production manager"
Do you see power to choose for people there? No, right? The definition you quoted says power to influence; power to direct, but not power to decide for people or choose for people.
Renniks: Now, apply this to a Being with ultimate, complete power. I know, Christians constantly say it. "God is in control." I'm also sure they really don't mean it as complete control, but only as God being able to bring things to a certain conclusion despite men's rebellion.
I have. And the definition perfectly fits in what Christians say, that "God is in control". They don't mean to say by that, that God decides for them or that God chooses for them, or that they are puppets. Now, who else is in control? Are you, I mean, is man in control?
Tozer: “God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. ... Man's will is free because God is sovereign."
Since you quoted Tozer, it means you agree with what he said there. And perhaps, having quoted him, you can defend and explain what it is you quoted from him.
When did God decreed that? Did He decree that before the fall of Adam? Please cite scriptures if that statement is actually based in scriptures.
"Man's will is free because God is sovereign." Can you explain what that means to us in your own words?
John Piper: "We are free in the sense that we can do whatever we choose, but ultimately God governs what we choose. We are not God, and we cannot veto God."
Since you quoted John Piper, it means you agree with what he said there. And perhaps, having quoted him, you can defend and explain what it is you quoted from him.
Please expound on the statement "We are free in the sense that we can do whatever we choose, but ultimately God governs what we choose." After that, tell us what he meant by
" We are not God, and we cannot veto God".
Renniks: If we have no self-determination whatsoever, I think you would agree that any talk of free will is really just nonsense, and we are actually puppets.
Had we talked about self-determination? I don't think we did. This is again a new one that you brought up. We talked about "free will" but not self-determination. Self-determination is within man's "free will", but "free will" is not necessarily self-determination.
Also, about being puppets, let me ask what you believe, do animals have free will?
Tong
R0196
I don't ignore any of this. I simply believe God convicts all men, because that is what scripture teaches.
But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; John 16
Jude 1:14b-15 “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Not all men respond. Is some conviction more dramatic? Certainly, but Jesus confirms that we can seek him as well. It's not a one-way street.
Matthew7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9
You obviously only skimmed what I wrote. No, I don't agree with Piper. I was contrasting his statements with Tozer's. And I find this all pretty self-explanatory. I don't know why you need more explanation.
If you direct someone's behavior and you have the power to direct even their thoughts, as God does, that would certainly be choosing for them.
There's no need to expound on Calvinist double-speak. It's just a circular statement that goes nowhere. "We are free to choose, as long as we choose whatever God has already chosen for us." would be a more honest way of saying the same thing.
Self-determination and free will are essentially the same things. I believe animals have limited free will, but it's not really an issue one way or another. A possum can only be a possum, but that doesn't necessarily mean God is meticulously controlling his every wandering step.
Yes, you did ignore. That's right, the Holy Spirit will convict the world. But conviction isn't conversion. Besides, when scriptures use the word "world", it is used in various different senses as in the following passages, among many 200+ other verses:
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
John 12:19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, “You see that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him!”
John 16:11of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
John 16:20 Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
Also, reality testifies that not all are convicted of sin, of righteousness, of judgment spoken of in John 16. Thus, by that alone, it is strong evidence that the word "world" there in John 16:8 does not refer to all men.
Regarding Jude 1:14-5, that is again a clear misuse of said scriptures, taken out of context.
Renniks: Not all men respond. Is some conviction more dramatic? Certainly, but Jesus confirms that we can seek him as well. It's not a one-way street.
As I said above, conviction is not conversion. The two are different. Also, the response of the person is a different matter from the matters of conviction and conversion work of God.
Yes there are scriptures that says we can seek him. But that does not refer to all men. Again reality is one that testify in that favor. We hear of many atheist people.
Tong
R0198
But who is saying that God makes the choice for man?
Anyway, the point remains, that the definition you quoted does not say power to decide for people or choose for people. So when it is said that "God is in control", it doesn't mean to say by that, that God decides for people or that God chooses for people, or that they are puppets.
Tong
R0199
If that's what the calvinist say, then I disagree with them. That is not what I believe.
Man has "free will". He makes the choice.
His "free will" makes him responsible for his sin, but his "free will" does not make him responsible for his salvation from hell.
Tong
R0200
Lol, of course conviction isn't conversion, because most use thier Free Will to reject what God convicts them about.
Where does it say it doesn't refer to all men? I just showed you that it does indeed refer to all, because God convicts all.
Then you don't really believe God is in control, but only that he controls some things. I agree. Because if you say he controls all, that includes every atom in the universe and every brain cell of every human being.
So he can choose to sin but not choose to respond to God's invitation? Seems illogical. No we don't save ourselves, but we must cooperate in order to be saved.
I won't get into the issue of self-determination and free will. So, I'll leave it at that.
You believe animals have limited free will? Why, do you not believe that man have limited free will?
Tong
R0201
I do, which we already discussed. I can't decide where to be born, for example. I can't decide my circumstances as a baby. I can, however, choose how I make use of what I'm given.
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