HILLSONG

[marksman]

marksman,
I have pretty much the same situation with local churches here, and haven't been to church in 3 years, although my mobility at age 78 is also a factor. I have spent two Christmases in the hospital after a December slip and fall on the ice.

But I do have a really great pastor 2000 km away in Florida, where our family tends to hang out a lot during the winter months. The pastor is Jeff Parish, Indian Rocks Baptist Church. His weekly sermons are available via internet, and has over 100 sermons archived online. I always learn something new from him with each sermon. My favourite archive is his series on Romans. I have listened to the complete series twice, and look up certain passages from time-to-time.

He is a charming Tenessee hillbilly with a PhD. When he doesn't understand certain Scriptural passages, he just says "I don't know, instead of trying to manufacture an answer.

On-Demand - Indian Rocks Baptist Church

A man of integrity no doubt about that. I like the He is a charming Tenessee hillbilly with a Ph.D. bit. And like me, he says what I say "Don't know."Like me, he probably would rather talk about what he does know and I bet that is quite a lot.

I have bookmarked IRBC to listen to in my down time.

 

[marksman]

Home church? Small study group? Meetings with a group of Christian friends?

Much love!

No. At the moment I am the church if you get my drift. I am operating on where two or three are gathered together in His name bit so that means my church is the world wherever two or three are gathered together. I am very fond of coffee and donuts so an offer of that will get me to any two or three gatherings.

 

[marksman]

So then why exactly do you brand Hillsong as a cult?

No offense . . . it sounds like you just have a general impression of them.

Chuck Smith used a heavy hand in some instances. He was very much the central (human) personality around which Calvary Chapel revolved. If you got close to Chuck you could rise quickly through the ranks. He said himself that his board of elders was there to rubberstamp his decisions and to take the heat if someone was critical. He had a large staff of pastors, and that's who you would generally talk to if you needed a pastor. Chuck, towards the end, taught an impermanent, 'lose-able' salvation, definitely against Scripture! So far, by your list, Calvary Chapel is a cult, if you want to spin it that way.

But having been pastored by Chuck, I would never call them a "cult".

Something that I find in my extremely limited experience of Hillsong is that they seem to have a faith in God and an sense of His glory that I find lacking in a lot of other places. Including a lot of Calvary Chapels.

But again, I know very little about them. If you want to post actual information of what Brian Houston teaches and does that makes them a cult, OK, otherwise, this seems a little like a witch hunt.

I've heard all kinds of stories myself, about Calvary Chapel.

So far, the most I know about the church is this handful of songs I listen to that proclaim God in a fresh and inspiring way, that is filled with faith, and wonder, and that lifts my spirit up into the heavens in awe and love of God. Now, if that's a bad church, I'd like to find a good one!

Much love!

I posted to avoid a witch hunt and I know nothing about Calvary Chapel. As they say, just gimme the facts man!

 

[marksman]

Have you read "Pagan Christianity" by George Bana & Frank Viola, and its sequel "Reimagining Church" by Frank Viola? They are available as eBooks and have some useful comments on nonScriptural concepts and practices masquerading as Christianity.

The Authors' Site: Pagan Christianity.org

I have all his books.

 

[marksman]

marksman,

If you were an elder in any one of these churches, what changes would you recommend?

Oz

One. I would get rid of all the paid Christians.
Two. I would not allow any teaching that does not start with scripture.
Three. I would have several unpaid Elders to oversee the life of the church.
Four. I would recognize and accept people's gifting and allow them to operate according to that gifting.
Five. I would allow anyone who believes that they have got something from the Lord for the congregation to share it with us.
Six. I would get rid of the catholic tradition of communion and replace it with the scriptural command to eat together.
Seven. I would not allow anyone to minister unless they had been baptised by immersion.
Eight. What the denomination teaches would be irrelevant if it is not what the scripture teaches.
Nine. I would train the congregation in literature evangelism so they could reach out to their neighbours.
Ten. Fellowship in the home would be a core value.

Then...after breakfast...

 

[OzSpen]

One. I would get rid of all the paid Christians.
Two. I would not allow any teaching that does not start with scripture.
Three. I would have several unpaid Elders to oversee the life of the church.
Four. I would recognize and accept people's gifting and allow them to operate according to that gifting.
Five. I would allow anyone who believes that they have got something from the Lord for the congregation to share it with us.
Six. I would get rid of the catholic tradition of communion and replace it with the scriptural command to eat together.
Seven. I would not allow anyone to minister unless they had been baptised by immersion.
Eight. What the denomination teaches would be irrelevant if it is not what the scripture teaches.
Nine. I would train the congregation in literature evangelism so they could reach out to their neighbours.
Ten. Fellowship in the home would be a core value.

Then...after breakfast...

marksman,

That is an excellent list that has a biblical foundation. Do you know where that is best practised? Like the church of the first century, in house churches. Such a small group allows the church to function according to the gifts. Then house churches could be planted across the town/city.

For me, I would add:

1. Training in apologetics so people can defend the faith (1 Pet 3:15 ESV).
2. The gifts (Eph 4:11-13 NIV) used to equip Christians for their works of ministry. In my 50 years as a Christian, equipping of Christians has rarely been mentioned.
   
3. I will never ever give a cent to a church building program where the purpose is to promote a handful of ministries while most of us remain mute in the pews.
4. I want a strong statement of faith dealing with the doctrines of God, Christ, Holy Spirit, inspiration of the Scriptures, and doctrine of human beings.

I had a call today from a long-term friend in NZ. She said that in the easing of restrictions after Covid-19, pubs and clubs are allowed to have people back, as long as social distancing remains. However, for churches the NZ govt only allows 10 people to gather at this stage.

Blessings,
Oz

 

[marksman]

marksman,

That is an excellent list that has a biblical foundation. Do you know where that is best practised? Like the church of the first century, in house churches. Such a small group allows the church to function according to the gifts. Then house churches could be planted across the town/city.

For me, I would add:

1. Training in apologetics so people can defend the faith (1 Pet 3:15 ESV).
2. The gifts (Eph 4:11-13 NIV) used to equip Christians for their works of ministry. In my 50 years as a Christian, equipping of Christians has rarely been mentioned.
   
3. I will never ever give a cent to a church building program where the purpose is to promote a handful of ministries while most of us remain mute in the pews.
4. I want a strong statement of faith dealing with the doctrines of God, Christ, Holy Spirit, inspiration of the Scriptures, and doctrine of human beings.

I had a call today from a long-term friend in NZ. She said that in the easing of restrictions after Covid-19, pubs and clubs are allowed to have people back, as long as social distancing remains. However, for churches the NZ govt only allows 10 people to gather at this stage.

Blessings,
Oz

My cynical self has an answer to that problem. All the church has to do is get a liquor license and buy some wine and use that for communion. Ergo a public drinking place.

 

[Stumpmaster]

marksman,

That is an excellent list that has a biblical foundation. Do you know where that is best practised? Like the church of the first century, in house churches. Such a small group allows the church to function according to the gifts. Then house churches could be planted across the town/city.

For me, I would add:

1. Training in apologetics so people can defend the faith (1 Pet 3:15 ESV).
2. The gifts (Eph 4:11-13 NIV) used to equip Christians for their works of ministry. In my 50 years as a Christian, equipping of Christians has rarely been mentioned.
   
3. I will never ever give a cent to a church building program where the purpose is to promote a handful of ministries while most of us remain mute in the pews.
4. I want a strong statement of faith dealing with the doctrines of God, Christ, Holy Spirit, inspiration of the Scriptures, and doctrine of human beings.

I had a call today from a long-term friend in NZ. She said that in the easing of restrictions after Covid-19, pubs and clubs are allowed to have people back, as long as social distancing remains. However, for churches the NZ govt only allows 10 people to gather at this stage.

Blessings,
Oz

We keep the numbers of our simple in-home fellowship low on purpose. Eight is as big as we like to get otherwise the dynamic changes and there is less participation from everyone, and more work for the host.
There is a case for the larger gathering but when Christians passively pew-sit week after week to be entertained by programs and performances, and to provide an audience for pulpiteers to practice their trade, they are failing to exhort and edify one another as Scripture instructs.

 

[marksman]

We keep the numbers of our simple in-home fellowship low on purpose. Eight is as big as we like to get otherwise the dynamic changes and there is less participation from everyone, and more work for the host.
There is a case for the larger gathering but when Christians passively pew-sit week after week to be entertained by programs and performances, and to provide an audience for pulpiteers to practice their trade, they are failing to exhort and edify one another as Scripture instructs.

Agree. I meet with about 8 men every Friday for coffee and chat at lunchtime. We have no set agenda and our conversation roams around all over the place. After every time we meet you feel that you have achieved something and that you have benefited from being there. I wish a few more churches adopted this approach with their ministry to men rather than have formal programmes.

 

[Willie T]

One. I would get rid of all the paid Christians.
Two. I would not allow any teaching that does not start with scripture.
Three. I would have several unpaid Elders to oversee the life of the church.
Four. I would recognize and accept people's gifting and allow them to operate according to that gifting.
Five. I would allow anyone who believes that they have got something from the Lord for the congregation to share it with us.
Six. I would get rid of the catholic tradition of communion and replace it with the scriptural command to eat together.
Seven. I would not allow anyone to minister unless they had been baptised by immersion.
Eight. What the denomination teaches would be irrelevant if it is not what the scripture teaches.
Nine. I would train the congregation in literature evangelism so they could reach out to their neighbours.
Ten. Fellowship in the home would be a core value.

Then...after breakfast...

Wow! Did my opinion of YOU ever change. (And I had no idea you owned a church...)

 

[farouk]

One. I would get rid of all the paid Christians.
Two. I would not allow any teaching that does not start with scripture.
Three. I would have several unpaid Elders to oversee the life of the church.
Four. I would recognize and accept people's gifting and allow them to operate according to that gifting.
Five. I would allow anyone who believes that they have got something from the Lord for the congregation to share it with us.
Six. I would get rid of the catholic tradition of communion and replace it with the scriptural command to eat together.
Seven. I would not allow anyone to minister unless they had been baptised by immersion.
Eight. What the denomination teaches would be irrelevant if it is not what the scripture teaches.
Nine. I would train the congregation in literature evangelism so they could reach out to their neighbours.
Ten. Fellowship in the home would be a core value.

Then...after breakfast...

@marksman Sounds a bit like Acts 2.42...

 

[farouk]

We keep the numbers of our simple in-home fellowship low on purpose. Eight is as big as we like to get otherwise the dynamic changes and there is less participation from everyone, and more work for the host.
There is a case for the larger gathering but when Christians passively pew-sit week after week to be entertained by programs and performances, and to provide an audience for pulpiteers to practice their trade, they are failing to exhort and edify one another as Scripture instructs.

@marksman Oh that word 'program' in a local church setting bewilders me...

 

[farouk]

... they are failing to exhort and edify one another as Scripture instructs.

@Stumpmaster Important and Scriptural indeed...

 

[marks]

I posted to avoid a witch hunt and I know nothing about Calvary Chapel. As they say, just gimme the facts man!

I'm sorry if I got the wrong idea. It seemed that you were looking for people to relate their experiences to verify your suspicions that they are a cult.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If the music being presented is for the sole purpose of leading people into some ecstatic state of euphoria, as was the case when I was a worship leader in the AOG with 3 verse choruses being repeated 6 times, removing all objectivity and sense of reasoning, then my friend I believe we've gone down a wrong path. The drug becomes the focus.

Complete agreement!

One thing . . . there was a lady I knew at a home fellowship my wife and I attended for many years. We had a variety of music leaders during that time, including those who would lead us in those simple and repetitive choruses over and over and over until my mind was like mashed potatoes draining from my ears.

But I'd look at her face, and watch her sing, and I knew she was caught up in the worship of the Lord. I've never had reason to think otherwise. For her, that repetition worked.

In more recent years, I've come to appreciate some more of that, as I find that focusing my mind on a Scriptural truth, if only to say, He loves me, to focus on that helps me to focus my faith on God, and life springs from that.

The band may even intend to elevate the flesh, to appeal to the senses, to manipulate the emotions, but whether for good reason or bad, Christ is preached, or, for me, faith is increased.

But yes, I agree, it can become just another drug addiction, a deceiptful corruption within the flesh.

Much love!

 

[marks]

No. At the moment I am the church if you get my drift. I am operating on where two or three are gathered together in His name bit so that means my church is the world wherever two or three are gathered together. I am very fond of coffee and donuts so an offer of that will get me to any two or three gatherings.

The two or three thing is in enacting church discipline, I think, just the same, the admonition is to assemble together, I don't recall seeing numbers or venues listed. I wish I could still eat donuts! Diabetic, you know. Apple Fritters are my favorites!

Just that we need to get together regularly with fellow believers.

Much love!

 

[Stumpmaster]

The two or three thing is in enacting church discipline,

Hi marks. While the context of Matthew 18:20 is about meeting to sort out grievances it remains true of any situation where two or three are gathered in Christ's Name, that He is in their midst. To suggest otherwise is to erroneously manipulate Scripture through bad exegesis

 

[marks]

Hi marks. While the context of Matthew 18:20 is about meeting to sort out grievances it remains true of any situation where two or three are gathered in Christ's Name, that He is in their midst. To suggest otherwise is to erroneously manipulate Scripture through bad exegesis

In that way, Christ is always with us, even when we are by ourselves. And in small groups, and even where 200 or 3000 are gathered together.

We don't gather in 2's and 3's so Jesus will be present. He is with us already. But in this context there is a point being made, I think.

I agree, we pick up these treasures of knowledge along the way, a reminder that Jesus is with us. But I do like to keep in mind what the passage is set out to teach us.

Much love!

 

[Stumpmaster]

In that way, Christ is always with us, even when we are by ourselves. And in small groups, and even where 200 or 3000 are gathered together.

We don't gather in 2's and 3's so Jesus will be present. He is with us already. But in this context there is a point being made, I think.

I agree, we pick up these treasures of knowledge along the way, a reminder that Jesus is with us. But I do like to keep in mind what the passage is set out to teach us.

Much love!

What you say is true, which leads to the question "Why fellowship at all if Christ is always with you?" The answer is to exhort and edify one another in love, and my early experience of institutional denominational Christianity was that the ritualistic, formal Sunday liturgy was the powerhouse of faith to which all else was subordinate. Our fellowship of likeminded believers have all escaped this mindset to turn it on its head.

 

[marks]

What you say is true, which leads to the question "Why fellowship at all if Christ is always with you?" The answer is to exhort and edify one another in love, and my early experience of institutional denominational Christianity was that the ritualistic, formal Sunday liturgy was the powerhouse of faith to which all else was subordinate. Our fellowship of likeminded believers have all escaped this mindset to turn it on its head.

Yes, God is building love in us, and love does not exist seperate from it's object. So we have to get together so that we can share the gifts God gives us in acts of love to each other, as the body builds itself in love, using what every part supplies.

I tell everybody . . . go sit in the big room with all the people to hear the teacher, but get into small groups where everyone can be active.



I think between 8-15 makes a good sized group. But whatever the Lord builds us into.

Much love!