Saved Or Predestined ???

[Renniks]

Do you or can you decide to be born, to be born again?

Of course you decide whether to allow God to do that work of salvation in you.

If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from death, you will be saved. For it is by our faith that we are put right with God; it is by our confession that we are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)

 

[Renniks]

So, how about you, do you not believe those truth?

Again with the genisis verse? You are pushing a form of total depravity that isn't the current reality. All man's facilities are corrupt, but that doesn't mean his every thought is evil, unless we are speaking of people who have already totally rejected God. If that were the case now, God would have already sent judgement again. Instead he is now delaying judgement to allow more to enter the fold. Not every OT verse can be applied universally.

 

[Tong2020]

Prove it. You just made a statement about the conviction being different, but you did not show that to be true. Nothing to rebut because you are just making stuff up.

What do you want me to prove? My statement that says "The conviction of sin spoken of in John 16:8 is not what conviction of sin you say there. So, don't get all mixed up. The conviction of sin there in John 16:8 is the proving or declaring guilty of sin, every one of them unbelievers in Jesus Christ."?

I just did, didn't I? I told you to read John 16:9.

John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

I am not making up stuff Renniks. So there, go ahead and rebut.

Tong
R0214

 

[Renniks]

What do you want me to prove? My statement that says "The conviction of sin spoken of in John 16:8 is not what conviction of sin you say there. So, don't get all mixed up. The conviction of sin there in John 16:8 is the proving or declaring guilty of sin, every one of them unbelievers in Jesus Christ."?

I just did, didn't I? I told you to read John 16:9.

John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

I am not making up stuff Renniks. So there, go ahead and rebut.

Tong
R0214

If they are convicted, of thier sin, they have opportunity to confess and repent. There's no difference there at all. And you have not shown otherwise.

 

[Tong2020]

Man doesn't cause his salvation by being willing, but God will not save those who are not willing. Pretty simple.

No matter how you work your way around that, it does not take away the fact that your view of salvation is somehow by man's will, since man must make a choice.

Tong
R0215

 

[Renniks]

No matter how you work your way around that, it does not take away the fact that your view of salvation is somehow by man's will, since man must make a choice.

Tong
R0215

If you want to see it that way, then:
Whatever floats your boat, but that's what scripture teaches.
There's a difference between causing something to happen and having to have a certain condition for it to happen.
There's a difference between doing a job and requiring a handshake from the customer before the job.

 

[Enoch111]

No matter how you work your way around that, it does not take away the fact that your view of salvation is somehow by man's will, since man must make a choice.

And if you were totally honest with yourself, you would admit that you too had to make a choice. Unless you dabble in magic.

 

[Tong2020]

Genesis 3:15 is a prophecy about Christ. And about how he will defeat Satan at the cross. It's about salvation in that way. Of course we must be born again, and that first requires belief. I see no contradiction. God gathers those who believe. Jesus gives to the father those who choose to listen and follow Jesus. He"who has ears let him hear." Meaning we have to listen in order to follow. Ever notice that we can at times make ourselves unable to hear the Spirit? We can distract ourselves with worries or fear or just spiritual laziness, and drown him out. God rarely shouts. It's the same before salvation. We can shut down our ears are refuse to listen to his conviction., We will never become saved until we let go of that pride that blinds and deafens us.
Titus 3:5
Tells us God saves us by his mercy. The same chapter also makes it clear we must trust in him to be saved or remain saved.

"I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good."

There's no contradiction between God saving by his mercy and the condition of trusting him.

So Gen. 3:15 is a salvation passage. And we can't see there anything about a condition nor a hint of a condition concerning that salvation.

Renniks: Of course we must be born again, and that first requires belief. I see no contradiction.

Again you inject and squeeze in your requirement of believing, even when clearly it is not there anything to do with being born or of birth. The figure and analogy of birth is used in scriptures not without reason, significance, and wisdom. We don't get to decide to be born nor where to be born, as also you acknowledge. We don't get to be born by any reason other than because of the will and act of him who gives you birth.

Renniks: God gathers those who believe.

I disagree. Whom God gathers are whom He had chosen, His children, who had been scattered and are lost.

Renniks: Jesus gives to the father those who choose to listen and follow Jesus.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

All that the Father had given to the Son, them are whom that will listen and follow Jesus. It's not the other way around.

Renniks: There's no contradiction between God saving by his mercy and the condition of trusting him.

God saves freely, that is by grace, according to His will, purpose, pleasure and glory. It is independent of him whom he have mercy on. To ask something in return as though saying, "I will save you, but you have to believe me, else...", is like blackmail. Or to set a condition or requirement for them to comply, that when a man complies, He will save him. It's not just like that. God's salvation is not like something that God laid out in front of you and it's up to you if you take it or not. God's salvation is God redeeming you from your slave master or getting you out of slavery; or is like God searching out His lost sheep in the wilderness and bringing them home.

Tong
R0217

 

[Tong2020]

Of course you decide whether to allow God to do that work of salvation in you.

If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from death, you will be saved. For it is by our faith that we are put right with God; it is by our confession that we are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)

Renniks: Of course you decide whether to allow God to do that work of salvation in you.

Of course you don't. God does not need any permission or gets to have permission from no one, more so from a sinner. You don't get to tell God that you allow Him to do this or that to you or not. Such arrogance and deception I should have to say. If you acknowledge the truth that you can't decide anything with regards your birth that now you exist as you exist in this world, why not acknowledge that you can't decide anything with regards your second birth either? Don't tell me that God told you in scriptures, for He did not. If you have any reason, it could not be that.

Romans 10:9-10 does not say anything about what you say that God needs any ones permission or gets to have permission from sinful man.

Tong
R0218

 

[Tong2020]

Again with the genisis verse? You are pushing a form of total depravity that isn't the current reality. All man's facilities are corrupt, but that doesn't mean his every thought is evil, unless we are speaking of people who have already totally rejected God. If that were the case now, God would have already sent judgement again. Instead he is now delaying judgement to allow more to enter the fold. Not every OT verse can be applied universally.

Current reality? What do you mean by that?

Renniks: All man's facilities are corrupt, but that doesn't mean his every thought is evil, unless we are speaking of people who have already totally rejected God.

Those are your words. On the other hand, God's words is that the thoughts of man's heart is evil continually (God said this before the flood), and the imagination of his heart is evil from his youth (God said this in His heart after the flood). Would you want for me to believe your words as the truth and not His words?

Renniks: If that were the case now, God would have already sent judgement again.

You should not forget that God had made a covenant with Noah and his descendants, that is with mankind, (Gen. 9:8-17, also read Gen. 8:21), that He will never again cut off all flesh by the waters of the flood and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.

Tong
R0219

 

[Tong2020]

If they are convicted, of thier sin, they have opportunity to confess and repent. There's no difference there at all. And you have not shown otherwise.

You cited John 16:8 in your post #713 to support your statement that God convicts all men. Then you speak of conviction in line with this subject, that is different from that in John 16:8. That's the problem and my point. And I have already pointed out to you that the conviction by the Holy Spirit of the "world" of sin, is not what conviction you keep saying. The conviction of sin in John 16:8 is the proving or declaring guilty of sin, every one of them unbelievers in Jesus Christ."

John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

That's different from the conviction of one's lying, hating a brother, adultery, fornication, etc., which you keep talking about.

I hope you get that now.

Tong
R0220

 

[Tong2020]

If you want to see it that way, then:
Whatever floats your boat, but that's what scripture teaches.
There's a difference between causing something to happen and having to have a certain condition for it to happen.
There's a difference between doing a job and requiring a handshake from the customer before the job.

It's not that I want to see it that way. It's what I understand what your statement means and says.

Now, if you don't actually mean what you say, then that's different.

Renniks: There's a difference between doing a job and requiring a handshake from the customer before the job.

As I said in my other post, the salvation of God is not how you view it. It is not something that requires a handshake. See my last paragraph on post # 748.

Tong
R0221

 

[Tong2020]

And if you were totally honest with yourself, you would admit that you too had to make a choice. Unless you dabble in magic.

@Candidus ; @Renniks

Of course I made a choice to believe or not. But that choice, as I now had come to know later as I grow to maturity, is not why I was saved or what got me saved. That choice stands to be the evidence that I am a sheep, who was lost and now am found by the Good Shepherd spoken of in John 10.

Tong
R0222

 

[Tong2020]

@Renniks ,

With reference to my post #735, you had responded to it, but seem to have ignored the last part and I quote:

You mentioned 1 Cor.1:21. Can you tell us what is the foolishness of the message (the gospel) preached?

Could you please kindly answer the question?

Tong
R0223

 

[Renniks]

God saves freely, that is by grace, according to His will, purpose, pleasure and glory. It is independent of him whom he have mercy on. To ask something in return as though saying, "I will save you, but you have to believe me, else...", is like blackmail. Or to set a condition or requirement for them to comply, that when a man complies, He will save him. It's not just like that. God's salvation is not like something that God laid out in front of you and it's up to you if you take it or not.

It's exactly like that. Saying it's blackmail is just foolishness. An illustration: My father gave me a piece of land. I did not ask for it to be given to me, I didn't earn it in any way, but I also did not refuse it. That's grace. Now, I could certainly have said: "I refuse your charity and won't accept your free gift." Which is what most do with salvation, because of pride.

 

[Tong2020]

It's exactly like that. Saying it's blackmail is just foolishness. An illustration: My father gave me a piece of land. I did not ask for it to be given to me, I didn't earn it in any way, but I also did not refuse it. That's grace. Now, I could certainly have said: "I refuse your charity and won't accept your free gift." Which is what most do with salvation, because of pride.

If there should be any illustration that man would use regarding the salvation of God, such illustration must show the same thing that the inspired writers of scriptures used to tell us of the salvation of God. So, if we ask ourselves if the illustration you made shows the salvation of God as the scriptural illustration of the slave being redeemed shows it to us, or of the lost sheep being found, or of the dead being born again, the obvious answer is "no". Your illustration is different from those biblical illustrations. That would only indicate that your view of the salvation of God is different and is not what scriptures says the salvation of God is.

Tong
R0226

 

[Renniks]

Renniks: Of course you decide whether to allow God to do that work of salvation in you.

Of course you don't. God does not need any permission or gets to have permission from no one, more so from a sinner. You don't get to tell God that you allow Him to do this or that to you or not. Such arrogance and deception I should have to say. If you acknowledge the truth that you can't decide anything with regards your birth that now you exist as you exist in this world, why not acknowledge that you can't decide anything with regards your second birth either? Don't tell me that God told you in scriptures, for He did not. If you have any reason, it could not be that.

Romans 10:9-10 does not say anything about what you say that God needs any ones permission or gets to have permission from sinful man.

Tong
R0218

" it is by our faith that we are put right with God; it is by our confession that we are saved."
You say:
" does say anything about what you say that God needs any ones permission or gets to have permission from sinful man."

What part of the necessity of faith and confession for salvation do you not understand? This verse literally says that by our faith we are put right with God.

 

[Renniks]

Those are your words. On the other hand, God's words is that the thoughts of man's heart is evil continually (God said this before the flood), and the imagination of his heart is evil from his youth

There's a vast difference between every thought being evil and having an evil imagination, but that's not even my point.

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Joel 2:28

And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; Acts2:17

On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.John 7

Starting to see a theme here? God is pouring out his Spirit on all flesh ever since Christ ascended. We are not under the old covenant. Also notice how Jesus said anyone who thirsts may come and receive the Spirit. Anyone, not a few preselected people.

 

[Renniks]

That's different from the conviction of one's lying, hating a brother, adultery, fornication, etc., which you keep talking about.

No, the main conviction is of unbelief. All other sins stem from this one. It flat out says they are convicted of sin, no matter how you try to wiggle around it.

 

[Renniks]

It's not that I want to see it that way. It's what I understand what your statement means and says.

Now, if you don't actually mean what you say, then that's different.

Renniks: There's a difference between doing a job and requiring a handshake from the customer before the job.

As I said in my other post, the salvation of God is not how you view it. It is not something that requires a handshake. See my last paragraph on post # 748.

Tong
R0221

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If you don't do these things, will God save you anyway? " If" you do this, then that will happen. You can't get around the requirements.