Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

Ok, I guess I don't understand the question. What the passage says is the cross is foolishness to those who are not being saved. That pretty self-explanatory. A person under conviction may still mock the message, but in his heart there's a glimmer of "maybe this is truth." which grows stronger if he yields to that conviction or weaker if he resists. We've all been there.

Apparently you did not. And apparently you still don't.

The question is:

Can you tell us what is the foolishness of the message (the gospel) preached? Or what is the foolishness of the message of what was preached, that is, the message of the cross?

Let me try to spell that out more clearly if I could.

The message of the cross, is said to be foolishness. What I am asking is what is in the message of the cross that it is said to be foolishness? What is the foolishness in it? Why is it said to be foolishness?

In 1 Cor. 1:18-20, Paul relates to the wisdom of the wise, wisdom of the world, the wise, the scribe, even the disputer or debater of this age. Now, if you tell the message of the cross to the wise, say a great atheist philosopher, he would most likely say that the message of the cross is foolishness. What do you think is that which he says is foolishness about the message of the cross?

I hope you understand the question now.

Tong
R0239

 

[Tong2020]

Lol, I literally say if you do as it says in the verse to do you will receive eternal life and you say I'm misusing the verse. Maybe you need to quit complicating what God has made simple.

Well, that's your call. If you don't even try to study and consider the scriptural analogies and illustration of the salvation of God written out in scriptures for doctrine, then so be it with you. It will then be just a continuous misuse of verses, one after another.

Tong
R0240

 

[kcnalp]

Psalm 111:10
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;

Amen Jesus!

 

[Tong2020]

This is the primary fallacy of Five Point Calvinism. Christ did indeed die for all mankind, but no one is redeemed or saved until and unless they obey the Gospel -- "the obedience of faith". Why is that so hard to fathom?

I don't know about Calvinism Enoch111. But we can talk about scriptures, and not Calvinism, for I am not talking about what they believe, but am talking about what scriptures teach as per my reading.

You can start making your case that Christ indeed died for all mankind but that no one is redeemed or saved until and unless they obey the Gospel. And I will make a rebuttal.

1. GOD COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead. (Acts 17:30,31)

That very passage refutes your view. See those I highlighted in blue. Paul there tells us there was indeed a time of ignorance, as with and in relation to the Gentiles. He had overlooked their ignorance, not to mean that they (Gentiles, men of old until that present time) were not as guilty of sin before as they were now, but that he did not demand as much repentance as He do so now to all men, Jews and Gentiles alike.

2. GOD COMMANDS ALL MEN TO BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND BE SAVED
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my Gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: (Rom 16:25,26)

And obviously, the "all nations" does not mean all mankind, as the already dead men were obviously not among them that God commands to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation.

No matter how one goes around it, the truth that God had chosen only a people from among all mankind to be His people, and not all mankind, remains to be the truth, from the beginning to this day and even in the days to come.

Tong
R0241

 

[Renniks]

Can all come to Jesus Christ?

Yes, because all men are convicted of sin by the father.

. John 8:8 “And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.”

Note, they did not repent, as far as we know, but they recognized they were sinners too.

12. 2 Kings 22:19 “Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the Lord, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the Lord.”

If we humble ourselves when convicted, God will hear and rescue us from the punishment of our sins.

14. 2 Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

This isn't merely sorrow that we go caught.

17. Psalm 51:10-13 “Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, and uphold me by Your generous Spirit. Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, and sinners shall be converted to You.”

Notice that the psalmist has to ask and plead with God to restore him. It's not automatic. God doesn't just zap some with salvation and ignore others.

20. Luke 19:8-10 “And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

See the pattern here? When Zacchaeus was ready to take action, willing to change, Jesus granted him salvation.

 

[Renniks]

So you don't believe that there are those who are "of God" and who are "not of God". That is in effect denying Jesus' very words in John 8:47 "He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

You misunderstand what Jesus is saying and we've already covered this numerous times

In John 8:44 He said that they were of the father the devil, and therefore lived to do the lusts of the devil. In the same way he who is of God does the will of God, and hears the words of God.
Now, apparently you assume if someone is not of God it's because God just ignores them and never gives them the opportunity to become of him. This is contradicted by hundreds of verses in the Bible where men are blamed for Thier own rebellion. You just have no real argument here.
He that is of God - He that loves, fears, and honors God.
The Jews did not choose to obey the commands of God, which proved that they not of him, and added to this was thier rejection of Jesus. Being of God requires seeking him in truth, not just going through the motions, like these people were.

 

[Renniks]

Your question is coming from a misunderstanding of what conviction is. And so I take it as invalid. Conviction does not mean bringing people to repentance, but is a declaration that a person is guilty of an offense or sin. Now, conviction may convince one and lead one to repentance or otherwise. Thus, we see why not all mankind will be convicted unto conversion.

Lol, so you just tried to have your cake and eat it too. Yes, conviction shows us we are guilty and it's up to us whether we respond or not. I never said they all convert. I said all are convicted. Again, why would God bother convicting people who he never offers salvation to? In your scheme of individual election, there's no reason to convict anyone, really. Those born destined for salvation, can not do otherwise, and those destined for damnation cannot respond anyway. Thank God we don't live in that reality.

 

[Renniks]

Your question is coming from a passage, which you took out of context. So, your question is deemed invalid. That is why I pointed out to you that such understanding is a misuse of the verse, taking it out of context.

Sorry, I just could not answer an invalid question coming from an understanding of an out context passage. So instead of pressing that, try considering my arguments that I brought up in the form of questions as follows:

If you do those things, yet believe, teach and preach that one will only be saved when he is circumcised in the flesh, and shall have perfectly kept the law of Moses, will you be saved?

If you do those things, yet believe, teach and preach that Jesus Christ is not Deity and is only man, will you be saved?

If you do those things, yet does not repent of your sins and so live a sinful life, will you be saved?

Again, I'd like to make clear that the arguments above were used only to show that the passage is misused and not in any way suggestive of any of what I believe.

Tong
R0238

Will God save you if you don't believe or confess? Yes or no? Quit diverting.

 

[Renniks]

God knew who would burn in Hell before He created them. He didn't have to create them. He chose to.

Proverbs 16:4
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Yes, God could have converted everyone before they were born too. But then there would be no choice, and we would only worship him because there's no other options. Is that true worship?

 

[kcnalp]

Yes, God could have converted everyone before they were born too. But then there would be no choice, and we would only worship him because there's no other options. Is that true worship?

He made us EXACTLY as it pleased Him! Yes, He could save everybody if He wanted to.

Mt 7 Narrow is the way to life and FEW there be who find it.

 

[Renniks]

He made us EXACTLY as it pleased Him! Yes, He could save everybody if He wanted to.

Mt 7 Narrow is the way to life and FEW there be who find it.

Because few seek, not because God isn't willing to save them. God desires all to be saved.
1Timothy 2:4

 

[kcnalp]

Because few seek, not because God isn't willing to save them. God desires all to be saved.
1Timothy 2:4

Did God not make them exactly as He pleased? Why does this question scare people?

Proverbs 16:4
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

 

[Tong2020]

Yes, because all men are convicted of sin by the father.

Why do you not acknowledge these truths in the following scriptures?

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse alone refutes the false teaching that all can come to Jesus Christ, that plainly and clearly says that no one can come to Jesus Christ unless the Father draws him.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Now, as per the quoted verse above, here is another truth: all that the Father gives the Son will come to Jesus Christ.
Did the Father give all mankind to Jesus Christ? No. If the Father did, then all will come to Jesus and will be saved, which, without question, is not the case. Then who are these "all" that the Father gave to the Son?

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

As we can see from the scriptures quoted above, there are those Jesus says are His sheep, which He says were given to Him.

Now look closely at those truths and at those verses. This is clearly what they are saying: that the Father had given to the Son, a people, and not all mankind. Those people, all of them that the Father gives to the Son will COME to Jesus Christ.

Now, you argue against these scriptures. That by itself refutes you already, because scriptures is the truth. You argue that because all men are convicted of sin by the father, that all then can come to Jesus Christ. But if what you say is true (and it is not) then all will be saved. Why do I say that? In the passages above, the truth about those who COME to Jesus Christ is this:

Jesus said in John 6:44 "....I will raise him up at the last day."
Jesus said in John 6:37 "....the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."
Jesus said in John 10:28 "....I give them eternal life....."

And here is further truth about them who comes to Jesus:

Jesus said in John 10:28 "....they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."

Even still, Jesus said in John 10:29 ".....no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand."

Such amazing grace!

Tong
R0242

 

[Renniks]

Did God not make them exactly as He pleased? Why does this question scare people?

Proverbs 16:4
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Let me ask you this...do you believe you are one of the chosen? Why? If God created some for damnation why would you think you aren't one of those?

 

[Tong2020]

. John 8:8 “And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.”

Note, they did not repent, as far as we know, but they recognized they were sinners too.

And why would they repent? They were not there to present the adulterous woman to Jesus for any other reason, except that they were testing Jesus Christ, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. I believe they went away, not that they recognize they were sinners too. Look closely to what Jesus told them, saying "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” Jesus did not deny the law nor did He prevent them from following the law. I believe they went away, because, by what Jesus said and did, they could not accuse him of anything.

12. 2 Kings 22:19 “Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the Lord, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the Lord.”

If we humble ourselves when convicted, God will hear and rescue us from the punishment of our sins.

This is yet again one among the verses you misuse. This is not about salvation from sin and death (second death). If you did not stop to quote verse 20, you will know that.

2 Kings 22:20 “Surely, therefore, I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace; and your eyes shall not see all the calamity which I will bring on this place.” ’ ” So they brought back word to the king.

14. 2 Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

This isn't merely sorrow that we go caught.

This is yet again another misuse of scriptures. You must not be too quick in reading and miss seeing to whom God was addressing all those things. God says "my people". It is not to all mankind.

17. Psalm 51:10-13 “Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, and uphold me by Your generous Spirit. Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, and sinners shall be converted to You.”

Notice that the psalmist has to ask and plead with God to restore him. It's not automatic. God doesn't just zap some with salvation and ignore others.

Of course it's not automatic. Nobody is saying that it is automatic. You are making your straw man to beat there. Again, please stop misusing scriptures. It is not as if the psalmist is an unbeliever who calls to God there. Remember, how can one call to God in whom he had not believed (Rom.10:14)?

20. Luke 19:8-10 “And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

See the pattern here? When Zacchaeus was ready to take action, willing to change, Jesus granted him salvation.

Christ had just taught and said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Now those who heard it said, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus answered, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God. (Luke 18:24-27)”. Now here is an instance of that impossible that is possible with God, that one rich man that had been lost, was found by Jesus Christ and is saved ~ For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10).

Notice, it is Jesus Christ who initiated a relationship with Zaccheus. Since He called him by name, He evidently knew about him, though Zaccheus had obviously not formerly seen Jesus. Jesus not only wanted to talk with him but had even invited Himself to stay in his house. This attitude was typical of Jesus, who sought out the lost sheep.

Listen carefully to what Jesus said to Zacchaeus. Jesus said "This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

It is not as though by what Zacchaeus told Jesus that Jesus said that salvation had come to the house of Zacchaeus. But what Jesus said there is clear. It is that "he also is a son of Abraham." I believe that you know what Jesus meant by that.

Tong
R0243

 

[Renniks]

Why do you not acknowledge these truths in the following scriptures?

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse alone refutes the false teaching that all can come to Jesus Christ, that plainly and clearly says that no one can come to Jesus Christ unless the Father draws him.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Now, as per the quoted verse above, here is another truth: all that the Father gives the Son will come to Jesus Christ.
Did the Father give all mankind to Jesus Christ? No. If the Father did, then all will come to Jesus and will be saved, which, without question, is not the case. Then who are these "all" that the Father gave to the Son?

How about we add a little context to these verses:

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

If you can't see the conditions for salvation here, let me help you.
1. Whoever comes to me.
2. whoever believes in me.
3.All those the Father gives me will come to me.
Now, can you see this is not an unconditional selection of certain individuals? He repeats three times previously the need for belief on him, to emphasize how it is that one is given to the Son.

Who does the Father give to Him? What had Jesus already told them previous to this?
29"Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Jesus is being evangelistic. He's explaining to people who should have already known, to those who had the Torah, how to come to him.
What is God's will? That everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life. Again, there are conditions! God doesn't just give anyone to Jesus, only those who believe and there is a condition for being raised up on the last day, too. There's no time limit on the need to continue believing and coming to Jesus. It's not a one time and done deal.

The trouble with Calvinists is that they read this passage as a deterministic formula instead of a promise. It's sad, really.

 

[Renniks]

And why would they repent? They were not there to present the adulterous woman to Jesus for any other reason, except that they were testing Jesus Christ, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. I believe they went away, not that they recognize they were sinners too. Look closely to what Jesus told them, saying "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” Jesus did not deny the law nor did He prevent them from following the law. I believe they went away, because, by what Jesus said and did, they could not accuse him of anything.

Then you are in direct opposition to what the verse says: "And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience",..they knew they were as guilty as the woman was.

 

[Renniks]

This is yet again another misuse of scriptures. You must not be too quick in reading and miss seeing to whom God was addressing all those things. God says "my people". It is not to all mankind.

Were all the Jews promised salvation? How did salvation come to them? In the same way it comes to us, by believing in the promise of the Messiah, whether they were Jewish or not.

 

[Renniks]

Of course it's not automatic. Nobody is saying that it is automatic. You are making your straw man to beat there. Again, please stop misusing scriptures. It is not as if the psalmist is an unbeliever who calls to God there. Remember, how can one call to God in whom he had not believed (Rom.10:14)?

You are way out of context here:

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
It's not saying unbelievers can't become believers. If that were true, no one could be saved. In fact, we have already been told the order of salvation in verse 9: Belief comes first, so quit misusing scripture and trying to reverse the order.

 

[Renniks]

Notice, it is Jesus Christ who initiated a relationship with Zaccheus. Since He called him by name, He evidently knew about him, though Zaccheus had obviously not formerly seen Jesus. Jesus not only wanted to talk with him but had even invited Himself to stay in his house. This attitude was typical of Jesus, who sought out the lost sheep.

Listen carefully to what Jesus said to Zacchaeus. Jesus said "This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

It is not as though by what Zacchaeus told Jesus that Jesus said that salvation had come to the house of Zacchaeus. But what Jesus said there is clear. It is that "he also is a son of Abraham." I believe that you know what Jesus meant by that.

Of course God initiates a relationship with people. And Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost, which is every human on earth, not a few selected individuals. "For God so loved the World." isn't "For God so loved a few people in the world."