The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

FollowHim

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2019
2,171
1,047
113
64
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
You still don't get it - Jesus fulfilled certain parts of Mosaic Law, but that doesn't mean the whole of Mosaic Law has been nullified. For example, the law of Moses forbids sex acts with animals - are you telling me bestiality is okay now? The Ten Commandments are also still valid, because the moral laws of Moses are eternal. Your moronic "no laws" doctrine means you have no morality.

I think you make a good point, but you are reading them rationally not emotionally.
They are accepted by Jesus as they are, and find the law, guilt and condemnation too big a burden to bare, so they have created a theology that accepts love and its perfection and their failure, in a frozen state, no better, no worse, while Jesus delivers believers to eternal life. It emotionally speaks to our need for life and significance while admitting honest failure and being entrapped in life, without knowing how the prison bars have been made.

So they hold we are all pharisees, full of hypocrisy and lawlessness, while appearing righteous. And this is certainly true for some.

I would not say this criticism is not correct for a lot of people, and is a serious flaw to a lot of people practise of faith. One relative looked at me with hate when I suggested the walk of a believer was through repentance and getting right with God. I was dirt to be rejected as a sinner of the world.

So though in logic the conclusions are one is holding to lawlessness by saying no law applies to us, but this is an emotional position and not a worked through theological one.

A magic moment at the resurrection will change everything, except this is not scriptural, and to be honest, I realised I had this fuzzy belief also. It is founded on a trust of Jesus, and a deep connection with His words that have changed my life.

It is why I have explored more on these forums to find what is a settled view, based on what we are, and what Jesus is, and what eternity is. Grandeous themes to say the least, but compromise does not sound like the fulfilment of the cross, and do not judge me for evil behaviour. God judges us for evil behaviour, but why are we locked into these emotional behaviour cycles and how does Jesus offer us a way out.
God bless you
 

FollowHim

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2019
2,171
1,047
113
64
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
What Church killed people?
This is an interesting question.
I know historically of groups of believers responding to propoganda have done terrible things to their opposition, protestant and catholic in the wars of the reformation.

The Pope inspired the crusades to win Jerusalem back from the muslims etc.
The inquisition used some horrendous torture etc to deal with heretics etc.
After reading some investigations into the inquisition it is possibly Kings and the army taking on the role of the inquisition on behalf of a reluctant church to put down heretics. Unfortunately once you are embedded in the state, and preach loyalty to a creed which if opposed means you are satanic, maybe possessed, you will create a fevour of murder and punishment.

In the soviet union with secret churches I heard of groups who would be prepared to take out spies who were betraying the group, as a defence of the group.

So there are many groups linked to the faith who have actively sought to kill people who were the enemy. Groups I have belonged to, in those times, were often the target, of both Catholic and Protestant groups.

I would say if Jesus and morality is that fragile, their version is probably not worth defending. God bless you
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,950
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hello @BreadOfLife,

With respect, Tyndale was executed for translating the New Testament into English: and was working on the Old Testament translation when he was killed. His desire was to translate directly from the original languages, and not from the Latin.

He was not the first to translate the Bible into English: for Wycliffe had translated it by hand previously; but Tyndale had the advantage of the printing press. Miles Coverdale completed the task of translating the Bible in it's entirety into English, for which we should be eternally grateful.

On October 6, 1536, after nearly 17 months in prison, Tyndale was strangled and then burned at the stake. As he died, Tyndale prayed, "Lord, open the king of England's eyes." Three years later, Tyndale's prayer was answered when King Henry VIII sanctioned the printing of an authorized version of an English Bible, the Great Bible.

Praise God!

Tyndale's version was not heretical, simply in English. He was martyred.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
Sorry – but this is inaccurate.
You have presented the usual homogenized Protestant version of Tyndale’s “ordeal” – but have completely ignored the historical facts.

It is a fact of history that many English versions of the Scriptures existed before Wycliff -let alone Tyndale. They were authorized and completely legal (see “Where We Got the Bible” by Henry Graham, ch. 11, “Vernacular Scriptures Before Wycliff”).

FAR from being the “hero” of the English Bible – Tyndale was a trouble maker. He was infamous for his verbal assaults on the clergy, from the pope down to the friars and monks. Not only did he have a complete contempt for Church authority - he was first tried for heresy a full 3 years BEFORE his translation of the NT, in 1522. In fact, his own bishop in London wouldn’t even come to his defense.

Tyndale left England for Worms and was influenced by Luther. It was there that in 1525, he produced his English translation of the NT – which included a prologue with notes that attacked the Catholic Church and the clergy in general.

Even PROTESTANT authors David Price and Charles C. Ryrie comment on his translation:
“Unquestionably, anti-Catholic outbursts are sufficiently numerous to make a strong impression on any reader.”

Secular Authorities condemned his English translation as heretical. It might interest you to know that even Henry VIII – who had such contempt for the Catholic Church that he murdered many Catholic clergy members – even HE condemned Tyndale’s translation as flawed and heretical.

In 1531 he declared that
“the translation of the Scripture corrupted by William Tyndale should be utterly expelled, rejected, and put away out of the hands of the people.”

In 1543. Henry again declared:
“all manner of books of the Old and New Testament in English, being of the crafty, false, and untrue translation of Tyndale . . . shall be clearly and utterly abolished, extinguished, and forbidden to be kept or used in this realm.”

Tyndale’s heresy wasn’t translating the Bible into English. That had ALREADY been done authoritatively.
No – his heresy was in the heretical ideas that his version promoted. It was blatantly anti-Catholic in its wording and intent.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Marymog

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,194
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Hello @BreadOfLife,

With respect, Tyndale was executed for translating the New Testament into English: and was working on the Old Testament translation when he was killed. His desire was to translate directly from the original languages, and not from the Latin.

He was not the first to translate the Bible into English: for Wycliffe had translated it by hand previously; but Tyndale had the advantage of the printing press. Miles Coverdale completed the task of translating the Bible in it's entirety into English, for which we should be eternally grateful.

On October 6, 1536, after nearly 17 months in prison, Tyndale was strangled and then burned at the stake. As he died, Tyndale prayed, "Lord, open the king of England's eyes." Three years later, Tyndale's prayer was answered when King Henry VIII sanctioned the printing of an authorized version of an English Bible, the Great Bible.

Praise God!

Tyndale's version was not heretical, simply in English. He was martyred.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
So what was the real reason William Tyndale was condemned? Was translating the Bible into English actually illegal? The answer is no. The law that was passed in 1408 was in reaction to another infamous translator, John Wycliff. Wycliff had produced a translation of the Bible that was corrupt and full of heresy. It was not an accurate rendering of sacred Scripture.

Both the Church and the secular authorities condemned it and did their best to prevent it from being used to teach false doctrine and morals. Because of the scandal it caused, the Synod of Oxford passed a law in 1408 that prevented any unauthorized translation of the Bible into English and also forbade the reading of such unauthorized translations.

It is a fact usually ignored by Protestant historians that many English versions of the Scriptures existed before Wycliff, and these were authorized and perfectly legal (see Where We Got the Bible by Henry Graham, chapter 11, “Vernacular Scriptures Before Wycliff”). Also legal would be any future authorized translations. And certainly reading these translations was not only legal but also encouraged. All this law did was to prevent any private individual from publishing his own translation of Scripture without the approval of the Church.

Which, as it turns out, is just what William Tyndale did. Tyndale was an English priest of no great fame who desperately desired to make his own English translation of the Bible. The Church denied him for several reasons.

First, it saw no real need for a new English translation of the Scriptures at this time. In fact, booksellers were having a hard time selling the print editions of the Bible that they already had. Sumptuary laws had to be enacted to force people into buying them.

Second, we must remember that this was a time of great strife and confusion for the Church in Europe. The Reformation had turned the continent into a very volatile place. So far, England had managed to remain relatively unscathed, and the Church wanted to keep it that way. It was thought that adding a new English translation at this time would only add confusion and distraction where focus was needed.

Lastly, if the Church had decided to provide a new English translation of Scripture, Tyndale would not have been the man chosen to do it. He was known as only a mediocre scholar and had gained a reputation as a priest of unorthodox opinions and a violent temper. He was infamous for insulting the clergy, from the pope down to the friars and monks, and had a genuine contempt for Church authority. In fact, he was first tried for heresy in 1522, three years before his translation of the New Testament was printed. His own bishop in London would not support him in this cause.

Finding no support for his translation from his bishop, he left England and came to Worms, where he fell under the influence of Martin Luther. There in 1525 he produced a translation of the New Testament that was swarming with textual corruption. He willfully mistranslated entire passages of Sacred Scripture in order to condemn orthodox Catholic doctrine and support the new Lutheran ideas. The Bishop of London claimed that he could count over 2,000 errors in the volume (and this was just the New Testament).

And we must remember that this was not merely a translation of Scripture. His text included a prologue and notes that were so full of contempt for the Catholic Church and the clergy that no one could mistake his obvious agenda and prejudice. Did the Catholic Church condemn this version of the Bible? Of course it did.
Three years later, Tyndale's prayer was answered when King Henry VIII sanctioned the printing of an authorized version of an English Bible, the Great Bible.
With respect, the secular authorities condemned it as well. Anglicans are among the many today who laud Tyndale as the “father of the English Bible.” But it was their own founder, King Henry VIII, who in 1531 declared that “the translation of the Scripture corrupted by William Tyndale should be utterly expelled, rejected, and put away out of the hands of the people.”

So troublesome did Tyndale’s Bible prove to be that in 1543—after his break with Rome—Henry again decreed that “all manner of books of the Old and New Testament in English, being of the crafty, false, and untrue translation of Tyndale . . . shall be clearly and utterly abolished, extinguished, and forbidden to be kept or used in this realm.”

Ultimately, it was the secular authorities that proved to be the end for Tyndale. He was arrested and tried (and sentenced to die) in the secular court, not Church court, in 1536. His translation of the Bible was heretical because it contained heretical ideas—not because the act of translation was heretical in and of itself. In fact, the Catholic Church would produce a translation of the Bible into English a few years later (The Douay-Reims version, whose New Testament was released in 1582 and whose Old Testament was released in 1609).

When discussing the history of Biblical translations, it is very common for people to toss around names like Tyndale and Wycliff. But the full story is seldom given.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Marymog and RogerDC

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,194
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The history of English Bible translation (preceded earlier by editions in the earlier common language of Anglo-Saxon) is very long, starting with Caedmon in the 7th century, Aldhelm (c. 700), the Venerable Bede (d. 735), followed by Eadhelm, Guthlac, and Egbert (all in Saxon, the vernacular language of that time in England). King Alfred the Great (849-99) translated the Bible, as did Aelfric (d. c. 1020). Middle English translations included those of Orm (late 12th century) and Richard Rolle (d. 1349).

Vernacular Bibles in many languages appeared throughout the early and late Middle Ages (after Latin ceased being a common, widespread language). Between 1466 and 1517 fourteen translations of the Bible were published in High German, and five in Low German. Raban Maur had translated the entire Bible into Teutonic, or old German, in the late 8th century. Between 1450 to 1520 there were ten French translations, and also Bibles rendered in Belgian, Bohemian, Spanish, Hungarian, and Russian. 25 Italian versions (with express Church sanction) appeared before 1500, starting at Venice in 1471.
Was the Catholic Church Historically an Enemy of the Bible?
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,194
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
With respect @RogerDC,

This is not appropriate. I suggest you consider your ways, and behave more like the Saviour you profess to know.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
It is appropriate. Sometimes certain non-Catholics slip in to the falsehoods of antinomianism.

Antinomianism (anti, against, and nomos, law), the heretical doctrine that Christians are exempt from the obligations of the moral law. The term first came into use at the Protestant Reformation, when it was employed by Martin Luther to designate the teaching of Johannes Agricola and his sectaries, who, pushing a mistaken and perverted interpretation of the Reformer’s doctrine of justification by faith alone to a far-reaching but logical conclusion, asserted that, as good works do not promote salvation, so neither do evil works hinder it; and, as all Christians are necessarily sanctified by their very vocation and profession, so, as justified Christians, they are incapable of losing their spiritual holiness, justification, and final salvation by any act of disobedience to, or even by any direct violation of the law of God. This theory—for it was not, and is not, necessarily, anything more than a purely theoretical doctrine, and many professors of Antinomianism, as a matter of fact, led, and lead, lives quite as moral as those of their opponents—was not only a more or less natural outgrowth from the distinctively Protestant principle of justification by faith, but probably also the result of an erroneous view taken with regard to the relation between the Jewish and Christian dispensations and the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. Doubtless a confused understanding of the Mosaic ceremonial precepts and the fundamental moral law embodied in the Mosaic code was to no small extent operative in allowing the conception of true Christian liberty to grow beyond all reasonable bounds, and to take the form of a theoretical doctrine of unlimited licentiousness.
read more here
 

RogerDC

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2020
1,107
168
63
64
Forster
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Salvation is not a reward.
Colossians 3:24 says that not only is there a reward for works, but that salvation is a reward:
”knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.”

Also,
“And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints” (Rev 11:18).
I do not strive to save myself
So you don’t do as Paul instructs?: “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14).
But I do as paul said Continue to strive to run the race.. to "work out" the salvation that God has given me
God has already given you salvation … but then after that you must “work out your own salvation”? How does that work? It appears you’ve got it back-to-front.
I re-iterate I do not think you understand what bearing fruit is. so it is easy to see why you do not understand
Well, please enlighten me. If you are already saved, why do you have to “bear fruit”?
 

RogerDC

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2020
1,107
168
63
64
Forster
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I’ll only go this far, because if you don’t get this point then your god is too small...


Psalm 139:1-4 ESV
[1] O LORD, you have searched me and known me! [2] You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. [3] You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. [4] Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

1 John 3:20 ESV
[20] for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.


1 Chronicles 28:9 ESV
[9] "And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.


Hebrews 4:12 ESV
[12] For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

This is ridiculous going any further. We appear to have two different Gods.
Your god only knows someone’s heart after they have been tested (your words). My God knows our hearts and thoughts from the womb. Even from eternity. I’m moving on.
It is not me that says it - scripture that says God didn’t know Abraham completely until he tested him - after God tested Abraham, God said “NOW I know that you fear God”. In other works, God knew something after the test that He didn’t know before the test.

Tell me, why do think God tested Abraham in the first place? If God knew Abraham completely, there would be no need to test him, would there? Think about it. Do you think God commanded Abraham to kill his only son just for fun?

Here are some scriptures that says God tests us:
1Thess 2:4 says God “tests our hearts”;

“Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness” (James 1:2-3);

”now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith … is tested by fire 1Peter1:6-7);

”Blessed be the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love Him” (James 1:12).

God tests us to discover something about us - otherwise there is no point in testing, is there?

Adam and Ever were created as perfect and sinless, yet God TESTED THEM by commanding them not to eat the fruit of a certain tree. This begs the question: Why did God test them? Can you tell me?
 

RogerDC

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2020
1,107
168
63
64
Forster
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Jesus put it, my sheep listen to me and follow. Our loyalty is to Jesus not a group.
Our loyalty is to follow Jesus by following His Church which is His body. To non-Catholics - those who practise Sola Scriptura - the word “Church” has little or no meaning. To Catholics, the “Church” is the body of Christ and the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23), which means the “Church” is not merely a “group” of humans, but part of Christ Himself. This means the “Church” is part-Christ and part-human.
Surrender to people leads to exploitation, surrender to God, to His Kingdom.
Surrendering to the Catholic Church is surrendering to God and His Kingdom. You seem to share the mistaken belief that the Bible is the primary source of your faith. The truth is, the CHURCH is the primary source. The Bible does not say, “The Bible is the body of Christ” - the Bible says the CHURCH is the body of Christ.

You have your personal (and therefore fallible) interpretation of a book as your guide; as a Catholic, I have the infallible and unerring body of Christ as my guide.
Some will never cope, while others will truly develop in the Lord.
The best way to “develop in the Lord” is to become part of His body, which is the Catholic Church, which is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23).
 

RogerDC

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2020
1,107
168
63
64
Forster
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The issue is not works

the issue is what are we doing works for

works done to earn or maintain salvation. Are called bloody rags, self righteousness, and will be rejected by God

works done by believers who are working out the salvation are called works of righteousness, fruit bearing, earning rewards, but even believers can do works in a wrong attitude, it is these works which will be burned as wood hay straw at the bema seat
I see. So it’s bad to do works to “earn or maintain salvation”, but it’s good to do works for “earning rewards”. What fascinating logic. Are you sure you know what you’re talking about?

Romans 2:6-7 says, “For He will render to every man according to his works: To those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life”. But you contradict this scripture - you say those who do good works to be saved are doing an evil thing. Whom should I believe - the scripture or you? Tough decision!
 

RogerDC

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2020
1,107
168
63
64
Forster
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
mailman confuses redemption (Christ did it all) with salvation.
I’ve noticed that that is a very common mistake. As Pope Francis said, Christ’s Passion redeemed everyone who has ever lived and will ever live. But that doesn’t mean everyone will be saved. I imagine the Redemption as Christ opening the door to salvation; He invites us all to walk through that door, but not everyone chooses to. Our redemption was unconditional - we are redeemed as soon as we are conceived in our mother’s womb - unlike our salvation, which is conditional.

I also imagine (rightfully or wrongfully) the Redemption as removing the stain of Original Sin - it as if all mankind has been freely granted the spiritual standing that Adam and Eve had before the Fall. Despite their sinless state, God tested their love for Him by issuing the first commandment - “Don’t eat from that tree over there”. Christ redeemed us, but we still have to past God’s tests of obedience and endurance to be saved.
BTW, posts 3775-6 are excellent summaries refuting mailmandan’s false dichotomy.
Thank you. I have a great deal of respect for your opinion.
 

RogerDC

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2020
1,107
168
63
64
Forster
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Our faith rests on the promises of God, therefore they are sure and certain
I agree, but God’s promise of salvation is conditional. Those who don’t meet the conditions will not receive the promises and will not be saved. We cannot know with absolute certainty that we will meet those conditions and so we cannot know with absolute certainty that we will be saved - it is Christ alone who will decide our eternal fate, and that judgement is not made until after we die. If you die today, it may be the case that Christ will judge you “worthy” (Rev 3:4) of salvation, but you have no way of knowing that until it happens.
Salvation is also sure on that same principle
Salvation is described as a “hope” in more than twenty places in the NT precisely because we cannot be 100% sure that we will be saved. To claim you that your salvation is a certainty is to contradict all those “hope” verses - if you have “certainty” you don’t have “hope”.

Our salvation depends on the mercy and judgement of God, not on our own opinion, so to declare yourself already “saved” is to put yourself on the Judgement Throne that belongs only to Christ. You can believe your salvation is a certainty if you like, but that is an unscriptural position; and when Judgement Day comes, Christ will not give a hoot about your opinion that your salvation is a “certainty”.

Eph 2:12 says “work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling”. Why “with fear and trembling”? Because our salvation is not a certainty, and the alternative to not being saved is certainly something to fear.
the believer having been “sealed” by the Holy Spirit
The “seal” is conditional and can therefore be broken - either by loss of faith or by committing “deadly” (1John 5:16) sin.

There are many atheists who were formerly believers who were “sealed” by the HS on account of their faith. Now those atheists have no faith - are they still sealed by the HS?

In Gal 5 and 1Cor 6, Paul warns believers (ie, those sealed by the HS) that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God. Obviously, the seal can be broken.
I believe this, it is my hope, there is nothing unsure or uncertain about it.
Sorry, but that is a nonsensical statement because you’re contradicting yourself - you cannot have both hope and also have certainty. If you have hope, you don’t have certainty; if you have certainty, you no longer have hope.
 

RogerDC

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2020
1,107
168
63
64
Forster
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
With respect @RogerDC,

This is not appropriate. I suggest you consider your ways, and behave more like the Saviour you profess to know.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
We're all adults here. Bestiality is discussed openly in the OT - I didn't know there are scriptures that are "not appropriate" for discussion. It is a distasteful subject, but it is useful to illustrate the point I was making.
 
Last edited:

RogerDC

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2020
1,107
168
63
64
Forster
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I actually believe Jesus, that He will teach His people through the Holy Spirit when we apply Gods word to our lives. God bless you
So is your theology correct? Has the Holy Spirit taught you the correct interpretation of the Bible? If so, how come there are other believers (who are presumably also taught by the HS) who disagree with aspects of your theology?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Candidus

RogerDC

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2020
1,107
168
63
64
Forster
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.
So all those Bible translators over the centuries have erred … the twenty-odd uses of the word "hope" to describe salvation are all wrong? I strongly suspect you are talking nonsense.
 

FollowHim

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2019
2,171
1,047
113
64
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Our loyalty is to follow Jesus by following His Church which is His body. To non-Catholics - those who practise Sola Scriptura - the word “Church” has little or no meaning. To Catholics, the “Church” is the body of Christ and the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23), which means the “Church” is not merely a “group” of humans, but part of Christ Himself. This means the “Church” is part-Christ and part-human.Surrendering to the Catholic Church is surrendering to God and His Kingdom. You seem to share the mistaken belief that the Bible is the primary source of your faith. The truth is, the CHURCH is the primary source. The Bible does not say, “The Bible is the body of Christ” - the Bible says the CHURCH is the body of Christ.

You have your personal (and therefore fallible) interpretation of a book as your guide; as a Catholic, I have the infallible and unerring body of Christ as my guide. The best way to “develop in the Lord” is to become part of His body, which is the Catholic Church, which is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23).
This is certainly a faith statement in an organisation. Jesus did not say we listen to the body and follow the body but listen to Jesus and follow Him.

By this definition you are not following or listening to Jesus.

In Vatican 2 accepting spiritual authority from other faiths was agreed to. It is hard not to conclude the church has gone astray.

God bless you
 

prism

Blood-Soaked
Jan 24, 2011
1,895
834
113
So. Cal
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is not me that says it - scripture that says God didn’t know Abraham completely until he tested him - after God tested Abraham, God said “NOW I know that you fear God”. In other works, God knew something after the test that He didn’t know before the test.

Tell me, why do think God tested Abraham in the first place? If God knew Abraham completely, there would be no need to test him, would there? Think about it. Do you think God commanded Abraham to kill his only son just for fun?

Here are some scriptures that says God tests us:
1Thess 2:4 says God “tests our hearts”;

“Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness” (James 1:2-3);

”now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith … is tested by fire 1Peter1:6-7);

”Blessed be the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love Him” (James 1:12).

God tests us to discover something about us - otherwise there is no point in testing, is there?

Adam and Ever were created as perfect and sinless, yet God TESTED THEM by commanding them not to eat the fruit of a certain tree. This begs the question: Why did God test them? Can you tell me?
With Abraham God was speaking anthropomorphically (on a human level) as we don’t have the eternal mind of God.
Seriously, where does official Catholic teaching teach that God doesn’t know all things?


Psalm 139:1-4,7-9,15-16,23-24 KJV
[1] O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. [2] Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. [3] Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. [4]
For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.

[7] Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? [8] If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. [9] If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

[15] My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. [16] Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

[23] Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: [24] And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
 
Last edited: