USA riots

[bukka]

As a believer, your loyalties should lie with the Kingdom of God first. Sounds like your priorities are messed up a bit.

So now you rely on the government and have made it your god.

The black community is not suppressed, you're free and you don't know it. There are many, many in the black community who know this and have made a good life for themselves, are successful and they in no way support BLM. They know what's right. They are not fooled with the rest of you.

Thanks for your views, Agios. I was slow to respond since I was at lunch. I do accept the Kingdom of God first. The Kingdom of God is within. I emphatically reject theocracies which do not provide reliable government and are usually tyrannies.

I would agree that the black community has come a long way since the death of Martin Luther King. I would state that we do have much freedom, but we still have unsolved issues remaining. We still have the situation of police murder which caused the BLM to come into existence. That problem has existed for 25 years. We still have other serious problems dealing voter suppression in many areas. On this thread, the BLM was identified as criminal, and various member of this forum denied that they had the right of assembly to seek redress of grievances.

I don't believe in special rights. I believe in equal rights for all and equal responsibility for all. As a Christian, this means I support the Constitution, including the Bill of Rights, and Scripture, which includes the Golden Rule. I become wary when I see others not supporting those things.

I've seen much political talk posted on this forum, but I don't see any connection to it with God and the Bible. Politics has been defined as organized or social hatred. But should Christians hate? This is the question. Can we be quick to judgement when we disagree? I think not. What you've raised about the incident in Seattle needs to be checked out, and I'll check it out. But everything needs to be checked out. Everything needs to be challenged. Prayer Warrior has challenged me concerning some YouTube videos. I have to supply them. I have to supply supporting information when challenged. I have to admit that I'm wrong when I'm wrong; and, I must say I have been wrong in the past. But what I'm saying is that this goes for everybody. Nobody gets a free ride. From what I can tell, too much of that has been going on in this forum. The give and take in political discourse is not weakness. It is a sign of strength. Steel sharpens steel as the saying goes. This is the way things used to be in America.

In order for a community and a country to be a peaceful, harmonious place, there must be the acceptance of the Golden Rule, at minimum, as the basis of human relations. We need to love one another as we wish ourselves to be loved. This will, with God's grace, bring us to empathy for others, patience when we experience ourselves to be wronged, hope in God, in that we see Christ manifesting himself in the love of other people, and respect for other people, in that we respect God. If we do this, I think the country will be much better.

And I agree with you, racial hatred doesn't build anything. It only destroys.

 

[marks]

Both you and marks made a fundamental error. You failed to support the Bill of Rights and the Golden Rule when you should have and conceded the point. You've turned the subject of the BLM into a political and religious dispute. In the end I have to affirm the Bible and the Constitution.

This is so simple, it's high school stuff. Did you ever get into formal debate?

What you are doing here is making a false equality. My characterization of BLM as a hate group, racist, murderous, dishonest, exploitive, that has nothing do with my support of the Bill of Rights, and "the golden rule" as you keep putting it. Nothing at all, no matter how many times you keep pasting the same thing over and over.

See, here's the thing. I'm not killing anyone. I'm not hurting anyone. I'm not denying anyone their rights. Just as I would that they do with me.

But they ARE hurting people. They ARE denying people their rights. That's not the golden rule. So maybe you should direct your attention to the actual ones doing this. BLM. Maybe you should spend your energy helping BLM's victims. Or don't they matter to you?

I affirm their right to protest, but they won't affirm the rights of babies to live!

What about you? Should babies have the right to life promised by the Declaration of Independance? What say you? Should babies be allowed to live? Or is it OK for eugenicists to kill them with BLM's blessing?

How does the golden rule inform us in that situation?

 

[marks]

As a Christian, this means I support the Constitution, including the Bill of Rights, and Scripture, which includes the Golden Rule.

Scripture includes a lot more than that.

What does the Bible tell us that we should do regarding the weak and helpless who are threatened with harm? What should we do? Help them? Or help those who would try to hurt them?

 

[bukka]

No, it doesn't, and that is why I will not support BLM.

All very simple except that you stand with those who are against these things. That is not consistent, and gives me reason to suspect your position. I don't think you are being quite straight with us.

Pure fantasy!

I've affirmed your point that anyone who will do so lawfully has the right of assembly and protest to redress greivances.

But you are just like the BLM people who . . .

Say it! "Black lives matter!" Say it!

OK. Black lives matter. All lives matter!

NO!!! You're ruining it! Just 'Black Lives Matter'! Say it!

OK. Black lives matter. All lives matter.

NOOOOOO!!!! Black Lives Matter. Say it!

Of course all lives matter, and that is why I will never support a hateful and racist group which supports the murder of those they claim to protect, such as is BLM.

All lives matter, marks, including black lives. If you could be clear on that, it would be fine. I'm inclined to distrust you. You don't seem to have much empathy or respect for people you dislike and seem to be grudging in giving them the respect and rights that you enjoy.

You still will not affirm the Bill of Rights and the Golden Rule. You still charge that BLM protesters are all criminals. But are all BLM protesters criminal? That is defamation, plain and simple.

 

[bukka]

This posting still stands:

Since I've been flooded with postings meant to annoy me and to make answering difficult, I will wait to see if marks and Rennik can answer the following:

I have taken the positions of these two posters to their simple logical conclusion. This is done to show the falsity of their positions. At bottom, both of these posters are still defaming lawful citizens of the BLM, equating them with the criminals that have infiltrated their assemblies to violate laws. This position of these posters has not changed. I cannot accept the defamation of lawful protesters exercising their constitutional right of assembly to seek redress of grievances, particularly that of police murder and voter suppression.

So I asked these posters, do you hold all gun owners responsible for the criminals that infiltrate their ranks to possess and use firearms to commit crimes such as robbery or murder? Are you sure about this? Do you want your guns taken away from you by people complaining that you are criminals or sympathetic to criminals? This is another application of the logic these posters are using. I have continued to ask, why you can't be morally consistent? Again, the logical conclusion of your arguments so far, is that you want to take away the Bill of Rights from Americans.

Are you angry that the Bill of Rights are in the hands of a race different from yourself? I have to wonder that. It's getting more and more like it is. I don't know why you hate the Bill of Rights except that it may be cherished by people you don't like.

I have always asserted that BLM was not a specifically Christian organization. I do not believe that civil rights be based upon religious belief; and, in state religions of any type. I don't think that churches should be dependent upon governmental tax dollars with the ministers being appointed or confirmed to their office by the government. I think that is something that is set up for anti-christ.

I THINK THE POSTERS ARE NOT ANSWERING ME BECAUSE THEY CANNOT ANSWER ME. THE LOGIC IS IRREFUTABLE AND SO THEY SEEK TO HARASS AND ANNOY ME AND AVOID ANY TYPE OF LOGICAL ARGUMENTATION.

Again I ask, why not consider the Golden Rule for a change? This is the moral basis for the right of assembly specifically, and for the Bill of Rights, generally. Let us follow Christ and love others as we wish ourselves to be loved. The Golden Rule establishes equity in law.

 

[marks]

Politics has been defined as organized or social hatred. But should Christians hate? This is the question.

Wow!

This thread is a treasure trove of logical fallacies!

Call politics "hatred", then ask, should you hate?

No, that's not the question.

The question is, why do you have to provide artificial and erroneous definitions to impugn your opponents?

BLM is perpetuating "social hatred".

You know, bukka, I'm coming to appreciate this thread more and more. All this go round in circles is helping me to realize the sameness in your arguments as in BLM's, and how this is so blatantly artificial, and is an organized attack against our society, including our black population.

As you have no real arguments, only the same empty accusations repeated ad nauseum, and no response to any one else's arguments, only that perpetual insistence that we affirm you. So much like BLM. Except that I know as a fact the racism and dishonesty and hypocrisy of BLM.

All I know about you as a fact is that you defend this racist hate group, and without even any logical reasoning. Only the mindless repetition, Affirm their right to protest!!!

What can I say. It's a slow day.

 

[marks]

All lives matter, marks, including black lives. If you could be clear on that, it would be fine. I'm inclined to distrust you. You don't seem to have much empathy or respect for people you dislike and seem to be grudging in giving them the respect and rights that you enjoy.

What you are seeing is my lack of tolerance for when someone is pretending to be in a discussion, but is actually just parroting over and over their meaningless talking points, while ignoring anything said in reply, and acting as if those things weren't even said.

My lack of tolerance to someone who presents themself as wanting to protect people's rights, but insisting that we all ignore the bad behavior we've been seeing for days on end, and pretend it didn't happen.

Paint me with whatever colors you want, but it doesn't change reality.

I will not support BLM, because they are part of the problem.

You this, you that, you lack empathy, you're grudging, all very helpful in your mind to justify yourself I suppose. But not meaningful here. Just more ad hominem to empty your argument of meaning.

I can respect someone who is honest. I can respect someone who builds up instead of tearing down. You keep repeating I have a problem supporting rights for others, don't you get tired of mouthing empty words?

Again . . .

While I support the rights of all people to assemble and protest, those rights END when they infringe on other people's rights.

In Seattle, BLM and Antifa are extorting money from shopkeepers to be able to open their stores.

They belong in prison with the rest of the extortionists. And they may find their rights restricted, but that's what can happen when you are a criminal.

 

[marks]

I don't accept you simply equating the BLM with criminals.

Then stop acting like I am. Not everyone on the organization is the same. Many are deluded by the leaders.

Just the same.

Considering that BLM is racist, hateful, and subversive against the people they claim to support, and support the murder of black babies, really, any babies, well, what does it say about you that you support them so strongly?

Do you believe their racism is appropriate? Do you believe that children should be so brainwashed that they don't even know what gender they are anymore? Is that what is important to you? That we can just kill our babies if we want?

 

[bukka]

Wow!

This thread is a treasure trove of logical fallacies!

Call politics "hatred", then ask, should you hate?

No, that's not the question.

The question is, why do you have to provide artificial and erroneous definitions to impugn your opponents?

BLM is perpetuating "social hatred".

You know, bukka, I'm coming to appreciate this thread more and more. All this go round in circles is helping me to realize the sameness in your arguments as in BLM's, and how this is so blatantly artificial, and is an organized attack against our society, including our black population.

As you have no real arguments, only the same empty accusations repeated ad nauseum, and no response to any one else's arguments, only that perpetual insistence that we affirm you. So much like BLM. Except that I know as a fact the racism and dishonesty and hypocrisy of BLM.

All I know about you as a fact is that you defend this racist hate group, and without even any logical reasoning. Only the mindless repetition, Affirm their right to protest!!!

What can I say. It's a slow day.

I'm glad for you to see some good in all this, marks. I think that things are never going to be quite the same in the forum. That's for sure. I'll still maintain that you've failed to affirm the Bill of Rights and the Golden Rule.

You're forgetting one thing. Words matter less than you think. People may not remember what you say or what you do. They do remember how you make them feel. When Stranger came onto this thread, he was a revelation of what alt right ideology ultimately leads to to many people. Whatever others may say about him, Stranger, like me, takes everything to it's logical conclusion. If you reject the Bill of Rights and the Golden Rule, why not go for a race war, if people are to be unequal. Stranger had a point. Why put up with the Bible and with the rule of law? Stranger may have been filled with hate, but he was being honest with me. His hatred must be a hard burden to carry. He's a very unhappy man. I'm seeking words from you, marks, about affirming the Bill of Rights and the Golden Rule. It's a simple affirmation which involves acceptance that I was right in my summary argumentation. But there's something more to that. I want to feel an empathy from you for me and for everyone of us that we really should be treating others in a manner that we wish to be treated. Feelings are important. How I have been made to feel will be remembered by others long after I should happen to be gone from here.

Let us follow Christ in all that we do. Let us show the love of Christ that we have within us.

 

[marks]

I think that things are never going to be quite the same in the forum.

That seems rather grandiose. I wouldn't be getting your hopes up. I don't think people seem to really be buying what you are selling.

You're forgetting one thing. Words matter less than you think. People may not remember what you say or what you do. They do remember how you make them feel.

So then it's more meaningful to you how you feel about what I've said, then what I've actually said? That sounds about right!

So if you say . . . Black lives Matter! And my response is to feel . . . marginalized . . . I'm not black . . . I must not matter . . . you don't care! I feel unimportant!

That's what matters? I feel unimportant?

Let's say . . . I say . . . protesters shouldn't break the law . . . and your response is to feel . . . rage . . . Protestors have the RIGHT! They've been OPPRESSED! I'm MAD! That's what is important?

Feelings over facts. Yep. That's what's driving all this.

 

[bukka]

That seems rather grandiose. I wouldn't be getting your hopes up. I don't think people seem to really be buying what you are selling.



So then it's more meaningful to you how you feel about what I've said, then what I've actually said? That sounds about right!

So if you say . . . Black lives Matter! And my response is to feel . . . marginalized . . . I'm not black . . . I must not matter . . . you don't care! I feel unimportant!

That's what matters? I feel unimportant?

Let's say . . . I say . . . protesters shouldn't break the law . . . and your response is to feel . . . rage . . . Protestors have the RIGHT! They've been OPPRESSED! I'm MAD! That's what is important?

Feelings over facts. Yep. That's what's driving all this.

Thanks for saying that, marks.

 

[marks]

If you reject the Bill of Rights and the Golden Rule, why not go for a race war,

Is that your goal here? Is that why you keep insisting that we all reject the Bill of Rights because we won't believe the lies? The hype?

Because we believe that actually all lives DO matter, even those who BLM would destroy? Because you want to maintain or increase the division that you perceive?

Another benefit in this thread is a very simplistic example of a managed narrative.

 

[marks]

Thanks for saying that, marks.

But do you understand what I wrote?

Seriously. Whether or not you agree with me, can you restate in your own words what I'm saying? Summarize for us?

I wonder.

 

[historyb]

What he really wants, I think, is for us all to support BLM. I don't think this is about securing rights to protest. They already have that. I haven't seen anyway deny that. No one!

That is exactly what he wants, he wants us to bow down to him and BLM and for us to say we are bad people for being right and they (him and BLM) are gods. They are of their father Satan.

 

[amadeus]

i hope he only got a time-out...Stranger can be very thoughtful actually, on other subjects.
Changing your mind is hard, i mean what do you do with a say a ten year old that has just been raised by bigots, where bigotry is the norm?

I do agree. Stranger is at times hard to take, but in certain areas he posted some good things. A racist? Well there are a lot of them around, but not all them insist that it all be their way. My mother, now gone 14 years was really also a racist, but she did not insist that what was in her mind be imposed on everyone else. She did remind me that hers grandfathers fought for the South in the Civil War. She grew up in Oklahoma when that was the way it was. That was history! That was a part of life. All of that doesn't go away because of new laws and court rulings. By the way I loved my mother in spite of her ways which sometimes offended me and my friends.

Now it seems that both the black and white extremists are backpedaling fast and coming to the forefront in the news and here on this forum too when supposedly we all be striving to be Christ-like. Lots of excuses why some are not. They are already saved so what they do now will not affect their final result.

 

[marks]

That is exactly what he wants, he wants us to bow down to him and BLM and for us to say we are bad people for being right and they (him and BLM) are gods. They are of their father Satan.

That's the problem with the protests. There is no "exit". No "this defines a win". Just scream and keep screaming until you get what you want. But what they want for the most part is poorly defined. So there is no end to the screaming.

Only escalation. Escalate, because they haven't gotten what they want!

Those who do make a statement of what they want to gain by their protests, well, its a bit ridiculous!

Give us the lifetime right to free education. For instance. No one has that right. So why do they think they should have special rights that others don't? That's racist!

To accede to their requests in getting us all to not be racist, which I'm not anyway, they want us to become racist? So I'm not expecting that absurdity to be pandered to. For instance.

No more police! Yeah. That's working out great in Seattle. Just a few square blocks, but they've already instituted systemic extortion. As they continue to deny people their rights, and destroy their property.

The criminal element committing crimes wants us to get rid of the cops. Go figure!

I still come back to that girl who wanted to do something nice for a protester, and give an apology, even though she hadn't done anything, to which the protester replied that's not good enough, kiss my feet! That's the mentality we're dealing with here I think.

It's not about love. It's not about rights. It's not about the golden rule. These things are being exploited just like George Floyd's death has been exploited.

Dreadfully inconvenient we can so easily see through this. Now I pray that God awaken the people of the US to this.

The way I figure, BLM and Antifa are well on their way to help bring a Trump re-election. Continue like they are, and more people will see how hateful and harmful they are.

 

[marks]

I had already answered these questions, Grailhunter in my summary argumentation: I have taken the positions of these two posters to their simple logical conclusion. This is done to show the falsity of their positions. At bottom, both of these posters are still defaming lawful citizens of the BLM, equating them with the criminals that have infiltrated their assemblies to commit crimes. This position of these posters has not changed. I cannot accept the defamation of lawful protesters exercising their constitutional right of assembly to seek redress of grievances, particularly that of police murder and voter suppression.

bukka . . . why won't you answer his question?

Grailhunter said: ↑

Let me get this straight...
You do not think that the black lives matter is not racist?
You think that lawful protesting includes attack law enforcement officers, looting destruction of property, and murder?
Do you think that because you own a gun that that make you responsible in any way for what others do with guns?

But then, why won't you answer mine?

 

[marks]

The Golden Rule is not the Golden Suggestion, Stranger. Why not believe and accept it. Any valid form of Christian politics has to accept it. They must accept all of Jesus teaching.

You refuse to stand against lies and hate and racism and murder. So do as your words say.

 

[marks]

Remember that little is forgiven to those that show little love.

You are not quoting this correctly. But that's not surprising. And you are misusing it. This isn't what that passage is about.

 

[marks]

This has already been refuted in my summary argumentation: I have taken the positions of these two posters to their simple logical conclusion. This is done to show the falsity of their positions.

Pure pretend.