I would agree that, God plan to save all - they all get saved. His plans don't fail.
Why then do you hold to the Christian faith if in the end it does not matter?
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I would agree that, God plan to save all - they all get saved. His plans don't fail.
Give God the glory!I appreciate your being candid and gentle. I'm not here to judge but I like to give a perspective that maybe others haven't heard. So I do appreciate your responses. We can all just keep searching brother.
Ask yourself these questions:
1.) Does God desire all to be saved?
2.) Can God fail?
3.) Would God give you every opportunity to be saved?
4.) Can God fail to persuade?
5.) Does God get what He wants?
6.) Does God finish what He starts?
7.) Does God give life?
8.) Does God do everything with a purpose?
The questions are there to stimulate your thoughts on this subject.
God will have all to be saved in due time such that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. And nobody can confess that Jesus is Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit.
Rom 9:17-18 was speaking about God's hidden purpose. God exerted a great deal of force that would've compelled 90% of humans to relent to Moses' demands. God's efforts were to persuade Pharoah to comply with God's desire for His people. But God's persistence only incriminated Pharoah further. Exodus explains what was going through Pharoah's mind, each time that he decided to defy God's will. When God hardens or softens people, he merely exposes what is deep in their heart, requiring a particular circumstance to manifest one's true sentiments.
You read my responses, i did not unequivocally agree to all the things that you said I did. I actually did not agree with any of them, in the context that you were attempting to establish them. You were wrong on every point, as far as supporting your position of Universalism was concerned. There were profound exceptions to all your predicates, which i pointed out.
Yes, God knows the beginning from the end.
Quit playing this game of loaded questions. Show some depth to your thoughts. God is one big paradox. His wrath is severe, and his compassion is unwarranted and immeasurable. He is merciful and jealous, forgiving and austere, ... You show ignorance to the complexity and profundity of His covenants and will, by reducing His Word to a few pointed questions.
Rom 9:17-18 was speaking about God's hidden purpose. God exerted a great deal of force that would've compelled 90% of humans to relent to Moses' demands. God's efforts were to persuade Pharoah to comply with God's desire for His people. But God's persistence only incriminated Pharoah further. Exodus explains what was going through Pharoah's mind, each time that he decided to defy God's will. When God hardens or softens people, he merely exposes what is deep in their heart, requiring a particular circumstance to manifest one's true sentiments.
You read my responses, i did not unequivocally agree to all the things that you said I did. I actually did not agree with any of them, in the context that you were attempting to establish them. You were wrong on every point, as far aes supporting your position of Universalism was concerned. There were profound exceptions to all your predicates, which i pointed out.
Yes, God knows the beginning from the end.
Quit playing this game of loaded questions. Show some depth to your thoughts. God is one big paradox. His wrath is severe, and his compassion is unwarranted and immeasurable. He is merciful and jealous, forgiving and austere, ... You show ignorance to the complexity and profundity of His covenants and will, by reducing His Word to a few pointed questions.
Why then do you hold to the Christian faith if in the end it does not matter?
1. Yes, God desires all to come to be saved and come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9; 1 Tim. 2:4)
2. If He wanted to. He is Omnipotent.
3. Yes. He would give you every opportunity.
4. If He wanted to fail to persuade. He wanted people to love and choose Him. He didn't want slaves. People choose flesh over God, so He allows it, so people will have a choice.
5. I am not sure if God always gets what He wants. It is a sad thought. He makes promises to us as Believers.
6. Yes. God always finishes what He starts.
7. God gives life and life in abundance. So grateful for that.
8. Amen. Yes.
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."
Romans 8:28 NASB
No, universal salvation doesn't mean one shouldn't repent. It means that those that don't repent will have to PAY for their sins. But that doesn't mean there is no end to their paying.
@Scoot . Beginning my life as Catholic and after coming to Jesus as a young adult then spending nearly 20 years in Pentecostal churches, I came to the same conclusion as you.
Since then the last 23, years has been a discovery of Who God is. What He is like. His character. And the overriding characteristic of His nature... The attribute by which all of His actions must be rooted, is love. When I considered the destiny of mankind, and like you came up against what appeared to be conflicting scriptures and certainly conflicting theories regarding those scriptures, I made my final decision based on what I had learned about Who God is. God is Love. He loves both sinner and saint alike. But love cannot contradict justice... It must harmonise with justice... And justice must harmonise with mercy... And all must harmonise with love. Which is why I found your number 4 option the only one that harmonised with what I had learned of God. There only one that harmonised with love. Yes, even annihilation harmonises with love.
I never said it doesn't matter. On the contrary, the only way to salvation is through Christ.
Okay. Let me address this first then you may want to revise the rest of your response. I do not see number 4 as an option that excludes suffering. Jesus said that someone who sins more will suffer "with more stripes".I admit, I struggle with #4. It sounds great from my limited perspective as a human (no actual suffering for my non-christian friends) -
I DO believe God wants sin to occur at this time.
You are revealing yourself the deeper we go into this. And it's not getting any better. You need to start again. You don't know God well enough or His purposes. I make no apology for that statement because you are so so astray in your thinking.. I believe He wanted Adam and Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit.
Okay. Let me address this first then you may want to revise the rest of your response. I do not see number 4 as an option that excludes suffering. Jesus said that someone who sins more will suffer "with more stripes".
KJV Luke 12
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Jesus obviously doesn't mean literally beaten, but He does mean literally suffer... Justly and fairly according to his works. I trust God to be just. Sinners will suffer in torment according to their works, and then die.
Replying to Scoot:
@Pneuma okay. With all the above said, don't feel bad. None of us know the Lord as we should. Remember Joshua meeting up with the Angel of the Lord? There he was, the leader of Israel, just spent the last 40 years as Moses protege, Jesus standing in front of him, and Joshua asks, ummm, who are you? Are you for us or against us? I do wonder and fear somewhat for modern Christians. Are they really any better off the the Jews who didn't recognize the Lord when He came? If Jesus started contributing to this forum under another moniker, how many do you think would start arguing with Him and debating His doctrines? Probably most of us.You are revealing yourself the deeper we go into this. And it's not getting any better. You need to start again. You don't know God well enough or His purposes. I make no apology for that statement because you are so so astray in your thinking.
KJV Revelation 20Thanks for your reply. If sinners don't suffer in Hades, or Gahanna, at which point do you believe they suffer?
The scriptures dispute this. Let me show you:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Now notice in those verses that EVERY TONGUE will CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord. Who's tongues? EVERY tongue - EVERYWHERE.
What is a requirement to CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord? - What does our Bible say:
1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
So you see, every tongue that is everywhere is going to have the Holy Ghost and confess that Jesus is Lord.