Universal Salvation

[Rita]

Thank you for your good response ...I don’t think we have spoken before.
I have like the post of yours That I have seen. It’s nice to have you on the forum.

I know you will feel that I am coping out in my response here.

That Lord called me in1964, and I said - yes Lord ...and starting listening.

Like most , I also responded to what I heard preached about he’ll fire...
We were in very active evangelism for a decade.
Then we were in a Sonship Movement for a couple of decades ...
( I’ve told me story a few times on this Forum ...so I won’t again ... the Lord started nudging me about things , on and off for many years , and I argued with Him...for years .
I totally know what you are saying ...and you have many excellent points.
One being what you mentioned about the love of God and grace. Agree 100%
Those words have been greatly misused and twisted by many.
Grace is not without accountability , as Paul said - “Receive not the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ in vain.”
When this is done , it is a choice ...in fact what we each believe is a choice.
Some just believe whatever is dished up...some are too lazy to wait, pray , listen and study. That is their choice. As are all things in the Lord.

All I can say is that I have to do what I believe the Lord has spoken to me.
Being very aware I am a fish swimming against the tide. But on That Day I have to answer , as do we all.
For me this was not something light or easy , as I mention many times before...
It was hard , and it was over a decade in all... but once I saw the whole revelation , the cost of the Son of God , and the Father heart , there was no going back for me.
And yes, I have known Christians ( and some on this very site ) who has said flippantly about people deserving nothing but torment and hell for ever and ever...
Have any of us got what we deserve! Thankfully not.

You mentioned Holiness ...totally agree.

But I think in the many years I have been on this Site I have only posted two threads about the subject. I have ‘said my bit’, I have made my stand , but I will not ‘best a drum...or make it an agenda.
Punishment and Fire ...yes....but I do not believe in any eternal everlasting fire and torment for mankind ...it was created for the devil,and his angels .... I’ve done all the word studies...
But, this is just me , every man must be persuaded in his own mind ...
I won’t argue the point. I won’t do “This is my scripture verse , now you show me yours “. Been there and done that too many times ...

“ A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still “

The Lord bless you and yours ...Helen.


P.S. I am on my iPad , it is 2.30am , I am in the dark (trying to sleep) the font is very tiny, my eyes are old, please excuse all mistakes,,,,,H

P.P S. Plus, thank you very much for your politeness , so many seem to just get rude , indignant and angry.
But then again , if they can only see a harsh , angry God ...I do understand why.

Thanks Helen- you explained it in a away that I couldn’t right now, I am where you were a few years ago xx
Rita

 

[Brakelite]

Being Damned means you must pay for your sins.

I agree. And Jesus demonstrated what the price of redemption is. It's death. How does one recover from a price such as that when there's no Resurrection from it? I speak of the second death... Not the first.

 

[theophilus]

God will have all to be saved in due time such that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. And nobody can confess that Jesus is Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit.

In the present age bowing the knee to God and confessing Jesus as Lord are signs of salvation but that won't always be the case. After we die each of us will stand before God to be judged. The mere sight of God will be enable us to see ourselves as sinners who have rebelled against God. We will be forced to acknowledge this fact even though our sins haven't been forgiven. The only time we can receive forgiveness and salvation is during this present life. It will be too late after we die.

 

[FollowHim]

Ask yourself these questions:

1.) Does God desire all to be saved?
2.) Can God fail?
3.) Would God give you every opportunity to be saved?
4.) Can God fail to persuade?
5.) Does God get what He wants?
6.) Does God finish what He starts?
7.) Does God give life?
8.) Does God do everything with a purpose?

The questions are there to stimulate your thoughts on this subject.

God will have all to be saved in due time such that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. And nobody can confess that Jesus is Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit.

Universalism is certainly a proposition, that everyone will come to know God and be part of His people.
For this to be true, as people we need to become balanced, loving, giving, cleansed purified people.

To date the only people who become like this become like it through choice. Look at what Israel did when they met God in the pillar of smoke and pillar of fire. The dude is gone, lets party.......

Can you imagine the Lord in front of sinners asking them to do something? Get lost we are busy.
There is something about the Lord which is polarising. Either you are in communion with Him or you are His enemy.

We live in the world between worlds, light and darkness. The opportunity is now, not in the future. If you will not respond now, then you will never respond.

The proposition is if love does not work today in your heart, then in all eternity, love will never work.
Universalists believe God can break through. I have spoken to many different types of believers, and a common stance seems to be I am fine as I am, how dare you suggest I need to move. I rather suggest, I need to grow and learn more, and in the Lord things never end or stop on this journey. God bless you

 

[marks]

And nobody can confess that Jesus is Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit.

This is true in the current day when we live by faith.

But the time will come I think when even the devil himself will confess the Lordship of Jesus. And not by the indwelling Spirit unto salvation, but as an enemy defeated.

I'd suggest C.S. Lewis "Mere Christianity".

Much love!

 

[Pneuma]

I would think pneuma, if you're attempting to espouse Universalism, you would need more than 3 rather disparate verses of Scripture, and 8 equivocal philosophical statements ? You are aware of the controversy at hand, are you? Of all the verses that support judgement and eternal hell fire. I'm not even, at this point, saying that you're wrong, but you need to do a much more comprehensive and balanced exposition if you want to competently broach this subject matter. Not necessarily exhaustively, but at least address the fundamental issues at hand.
All Jesus' statements of eternal hell fire.
All the allusions to the sheep and goats, and consequences of sin, by almost every author in the Bible.
White throne Judgement and Lake of Fire.
The imprisonment, suffering and martyrdoms of countless saints. Not just possibly the misguided ones, but the inspired apostles, prophets and disciples of the both Testaments. (Hebrews 11:37)
Satan and his cohorts, and those humans that are his children. (John 8:44)
...

1.) Does God desire all to be saved? - yes, but in that he does all that He can to promote salvation, and not deny anyone the offer.
2.) Can God fail? - No, but he allows men to fail, and not fulfill His desires. He destroyed the world once already, and had to close Eden.
3.) Would God give you every opportunity to be saved? - opportunity yes, but not imposition or coercion
4.) Can God fail to persuade? - He tried extremely hard with Pharaoh to persuade, I think that you know the results.
5.) Does God get what He wants? - Every time. But you seem to be unaware of what he actually wants (Romans 9:22)
6.) Does God finish what He starts? - Yes. But, you need to be aware of what he started (gathering of the Elect, a specific number for Christ's kingdom)
7.) Does God give life? - Yes. But death also. You didn't know? (Jeremiah 21:8, Deuteronomy 30:15)
8.) Does God do everything with a purpose? - Yes. But again, are you even aware of the fullness of His purpose?

You have put forth, so far, only 3 isolated verses, and 8 false, or refutable, predicates.
Horrible exposition!

Consider that you stated that God fails in #4. Your saying that God can fail to persuade but that wasn't an attempt to persuade Pharoh, it was a successful attempt to harden pharohs heart.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

You agreed that God does everything with a purpose, you agreed that God does gives life, you agreed He gets what He wants. Then do you also agree that God knows the End from the Beginning?

 

[Pneuma]

No it does not. So you can either (1) go back and carefully study why there is eternal damnation or (2) hold on to your own ideas, and mislead others into damnation, since they will be under the delusion that in the end everyone is saved.

We need to base our beliefs on what is revealed in Scripture, particularly the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. Not wishful thinking.

Hi Enoch, I've studied it very hard. Again, I use to believe in Eternal Torment. I was wrong. I had to explore the Word of God carefully to see that God is IRRESISTIBLE when He is known and I understood that He will make Himself known to all in due time and His purpose will be manifest before all and all shall finally obtain the reward and Jesus sacrifice will truly have been for ALL mankind and even more.

 

[Pneuma]

Over the 30 years I have so often wondered what part of the love of God drives some Christians insane with anger.
It is almost as if they want the unbelievers to be punished forever in-spite anything God may have planned.

I often wonder how they will feel when God speaks to them face to face and says - "So you didn't think I would do it."

Back in 1989 after a decade of flip flopping on this...
much prayer and travail ..I finally said to Father one day.." Okay Lord, I give up, You win, I will step over this line and surrender...I will lose friends and probably some family...but until my dying breath I will hold true, I will declare Your love, Your Grace, and Your Final Victory over the Enemy ... "
And I have never doubted or looked back.

God Wins.

Yes, God actually planned to save all and not some. His plan is going to succeed.

 

[Behold]

Ask yourself these questions:

1.) Does God desire all to be saved?
2.) Can God fail?
3.) Would God give you every opportunity to be saved?
4.) Can God fail to persuade?
5.) Does God get what He wants?
6.) Does God finish what He starts?
7.) Does God give life?
8.) Does God do everything with a purpose?

The questions are there to stimulate your thoughts on this subject.

God will have all to be saved in due time such that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. And nobody can confess that Jesus is Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit.

The OFFER of Salvation is universal.
The Application of Salvation, is conditional, and is based on= "believe on the Lord and you shall be saved".

 

[Pneuma]

Free will means God allows people to make the choice.
He wants them to choose life, but he will not mould them unless they choose to be moulded.

Deut 30:19 I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants

Many people will choose death over life.

Sure they will - this there is non doubt. In fact, if you read the Bible closely, you are incapable without God of choosing Life. The Bible shows us that unless God chooses someone to receive that Life, you will not obtain it on your own because the works of man show him incapable.

 

[Pneuma]

“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; two women will begrinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming [Greek: erʹkhe·tai].”—Matthew 24:36-42

the idea of universal salvation is a nice thought... but its a wrong thought. It could make some people feel they have no need to repent and no need to change their bad ways.
Its certainly not something Jesus preached.

No, universal salvation doesn't mean one shouldn't repent. It means that those that don't repent will have to PAY for their sins. But that doesn't mean there is no end to their paying.

Luk 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
Luk 12:59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

Sin is debt. Those that don't trust Christ, remain in their debt.

 

[Pneuma]

I agree. And Jesus demonstrated what the price of redemption is. It's death. How does one recover from a price such as that when there's no Resurrection from it? I speak of the second death... Not the first.

There is only one way to destroy Death and that is with Life.

 

[Pneuma]

In the present age bowing the knee to God and confessing Jesus as Lord are signs of salvation but that won't always be the case. After we die each of us will stand before God to be judged. The mere sight of God will be enable us to see ourselves as sinners who have rebelled against God. We will be forced to acknowledge this fact even though our sins haven't been forgiven. The only time we can receive forgiveness and salvation is during this present life. It will be too late after we die.

The scriptures dispute this. Let me show you:

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Now notice in those verses that EVERY TONGUE will CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord. Who's tongues? EVERY tongue - EVERYWHERE.

What is a requirement to CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord? - What does our Bible say:

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So you see, every tongue that is everywhere is going to have the Holy Ghost and confess that Jesus is Lord.

 

[amadeus]

Sure they will - this there is non doubt. In fact, if you read the Bible closely, you are incapable without God of choosing Life. The Bible shows us that unless God chooses someone to receive that Life, you will not obtain it on your own because the works of man show him incapable.

Every man born of woman has enough light to see that there is something better, which enables him to choose to pursue that something better:

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9

There is no final salvation in that little glimmer of light in us at natural birth. A person must be born from above [born again], but it allows a person to choose to walk along the highway of holiness, the better Way. Some do and pursue the Light, which Jesus is. Some of those who walk with and by the power of God endure with Him to the end of their course. Many do not!

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14

 

[amadeus]

Being Damned means you must pay for your sins.

Or does it simply mean for many that they will remain always dead as they were when born of their natural mothers? For some it may mean that they grew weary of well doing and turn back to consume again their own vomit and walk again in the death into which they initially had been born.
By the way, for your information I am still what some would name an annihilationist.

 

[Pneuma]

Every man born of woman has enough light to see that there is something better, which enables him to choose to pursue that something better:

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9

There is no final salvation in that little glimmer of light in us at natural birth. A person must be born from above [born again], but it allows a person to choose to walk along the highway of holiness, the better Way. Some do and pursue the Light, which Jesus is. Some of those who walk with and by the power of God endure with Him to the end of their course. Many do not!

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14

None of the Apostles chosen Jesus. Jesus chose them.

Regarding Matt 7:13-14. Your translation is a bit questionable. For example, one would error if they thought it said that the few is a reference to few EVER finding the way. Here is YLT translation:

Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Notice the difference? The verb is actually in the present tense. Meaning there were FEW finding it AT THAT TIME. That doesn't mean few will EVER find it - on the contrary - everyone will eventually be saved as the scriptures I previously posted show.

But so you don't think that is just my opinion, here is the Greek parsing: ευρισκοντεςG2147 V-PAP-NPM

 

[amadeus]

None of the Apostles chosen Jesus. Jesus chose them.

Regarding Matt 7:13-14. Your translation is a bit questionable. For example, one would error if they thought it said that the few is a reference to few EVER finding the way. Here is YLT translation:

Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Notice the difference? The verb is actually in the present tense. Meaning there were FEW finding it AT THAT TIME. That doesn't mean few will EVER find it - on the contrary - everyone will eventually be saved as the scriptures I previously posted show.

But so you don't think that is just my opinion, here is the Greek parsing: ευρισκοντεςG2147 V-PAP-NPM

If you go just by translations, who but God knows... and those with whom He shares via the Holy Spirit?

I regularly read it in the KJV as well as these two:

"Porque estrecha es la puerta, y angosto el camino que lleva á la vida, y pocos son los que la hallan." Matt 7:14 [Valera Antigua Revisada]

"Und die Pforte ist eng, und der Weg ist schmal, der zum Leben führt; und wenige sind ihrer, die ihn finden." [Luther]

We should be careful about making a final decision one way or the other because of the tense or even the language. The King James as well as the Spanish and German versions are in the present tense. The present tense speaks of today which is where all of us live. We may speak about yesterday but none of us lives there. It is at best a memory in our head. As for tomorrow, Jesus warns us about even thinking or worrying about it [Matt 6:34]. The night is coming before tomorrow and when the night arrives [John 9:4] it is too late to change what we have or have not done during our day. Thank God for today! Thank God for the present tense! Thank God for the Light of Day!

 

[Pneuma]

If you go just by translations, who but God knows... and those with whom He shares via the Holy Spirit?

I regularly read it in the KJV as well as these two:

"Porque estrecha es la puerta, y angosto el camino que lleva á la vida, y pocos son los que la hallan." Matt 7:14 [Valera Antigua Revisada]

"Und die Pforte ist eng, und der Weg ist schmal, der zum Leben führt; und wenige sind ihrer, die ihn finden." [Luther]

We should be careful about making a final decision one way or the other because of the tense or even the language. The King James as well as the Spanish and German versions are in the present tense. The present tense speaks of today which is where all of us live. We may speak about yesterday but none of us lives there. It is at best a memory in our head. As for tomorrow, Jesus warns us about even thinking or worrying about it [Matt 6:34]. The night is coming before tomorrow and when the night arrives [John 9:4] it is too late to change what we have or have not done during our day. Thank God for today! Thank God for the present tense! Thank God for the Light of Day!

The version is written in KJV is a translation from the Textus Receptus which is the Greek Parsing I provided. In Grammar Present tense refers to the time at which something is spoken.

 

[amadeus]

The version is written in KJV is a translation from the Textus Receptus which is the Greek Parsing I provided. In Grammar Present tense refers to the time at which something is spoken.

And if a person did not know that, but really was hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God, would it ultimately make a difference?

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

 

[Pneuma]

And if a person did not know that, but really was hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God, would it ultimately make a difference?

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

I believe those that hunger and thirst for righteousness will come to see that Universal Salvation is at the core of the Gospel Message but in respect to difference, the Lord is the judge as to His servants.