Universal Salvation

[amadeus]

I believe those that hunger and thirst for righteousness will come to see that Universal Salvation is at the core of the Gospel Message but in respect to difference, the Lord is the judge as to His servants.

I don't believe that, but no argument. I have known @Helen, who believes as you do, for a great many years on forums and we have discussed that at times, but I also always remember that God alone gives the increase. Will He ever increase me in that direction? I do not see it, but God knows!

 

[Pneuma]

I don't believe that, but no argument. I have known @Helen, who believes as you do, for a great many years on forums and we have discussed that at times, but I also always remember that God alone gives the increase. Will He ever increase me in that direction? I do not see it, but God knows!

I don't know Amadeus but I hope I was as you before. I always see people go from eternal torment or annihilation to Universalism but I don't know of any that have gone the other direction. I've been all 3. But those opening questions I have can help lead others to think about it more.

The thing I struggled with early on was the references to Hell. But Hell comes from different terms and means different things. Then I had to work with the word "eternal". I come to find out that it comes from the word "aionios" which means a age-enduring and not "forever". So it refers to something that exist in the present age and will continue to exist in the next age. Consider the following verse:

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Both words in bold above come from the same word "aionios". So both mean the same. But that verse could be written therefore as:

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into age-enduring punishment: but the righteous into age-enduring life.

You see in this case it would not be referencing an end point at all for the punishment or the Life but rather when it will happen to continue. So the term never speaks to the end point. Only to the continuing point.

 

[amadeus]

I don't know Amadeus but I hope I was as you before. I always see people go from eternal torment or annihilation to Universalism but I don't know of any that have gone the other direction. I've been all 3. But those opening questions I have can help lead others to think about it more.

I am a bit more stand offish on such questions when they don't affect me personally or directly at this point. After my Catholicism which effectively really ended in about 1961 my reintroduction to God was into Oneness Jesus Only in 1976. I lasted there for 11 years, but never returned to it or to embracing trinitarianism. What I embrace is God. He has shown me things over the years changing my whole outlook... but I do not expect or insist that others follow me. Whatever the truth of the matter is on this issue you put forth here is the truth. Nothing you or I say or believe will change what it is or what God is. For years I have gone back to this OT verse:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

While others pound to get someone to take hold of their ATs [Absolute Truths] I accept what God gives me and seek His Kingdom and His Righteousness. I seek His face. I won't find any of those perfectly without His help. I won't ever be changed where I need to be changed unless I am open to His Spirit. There it is! Insisting that I am right and everyone else's is wrong, I believe, will limit God's ability to work in me. I believe that God gave us that. The authority to make our own decisions... even the wrong ones. I am constantly striving to turn those reins of me over to Him permanently so that I will be more like Him... whatever exactly that is.

The thing I struggled with early on was the references to Hell. But Hell comes from different terms and means different things. Then I had to work with the word "eternal". I come to find out that it comes from the word "aionios" which means a age-enduring and not "forever". So it refers to something that exist in the present age and will continue to exist in the next age. Consider the following verse:

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Both words in bold above come from the same word "aionios". So both mean the same. But that verse could be written therefore as:

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into age-enduring punishment: but the righteous into age-enduring life.

You see in this case it would not be referencing an end point at all for the punishment or the Life but rather when it will happen to continue. So the term never speaks to the end point. Only to the continuing point.

You don't need to convince me on the no unending torment. That is where I have been for many years. I get tired easily now and only delve into such specifics when God leads me that way. My early mornings belong to Him and that is when I read my Bibles and talk to God. I guess that I have some of those ATs myself, but really it would be difficult for me to describe them. With this virus limitation still in effect around us and applying strongly to my wife with a severely compromised immune system I only leave our little apartment only when absolutely necessary. Here is all I need although I miss the direct personal association with other people to talk about the things of God...

 

[Brakelite]

There is only one way to destroy Death and that is with Life.

So when scripture tells us that death shall be destroyed, you believe everyone... Literally everyone... Regardless of the life they lived... Will be brought back to life? So salvation is for all and it's totally unconditional?

 

[Pneuma]

I am a bit more stand offish on such questions when they don't affect me personally or directly at this point. After my Catholicism which effectively really ended in about 1961 my reintroduction to God was into Oneness Jesus Only in 1976. I lasted there for 11 years, but never returned to it or to embracing trinitarianism. What I embrace is God. He has shown me things over the years changing my whole outlook... but I do not expect or insist that others follow me. Whatever the truth of the matter is on this issue you put forth here is the truth. Nothing you or I say or believe will change what it is or what God is. For years I have gone back to this OT verse:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

While others pound to get someone to take hold of their ATs [Absolute Truths] I accept what God gives me and seek His Kingdom and His Righteousness. I seek His face. I won't find any of those perfectly without His help. I won't ever be changed where I need to be changed unless I am open to His Spirit. There it is! Insisting that I am right and everyone else's is wrong, I believe, will limit God's ability to work in me. I believe that God gave us that. The authority to make our own decisions... even the wrong ones. I am constantly striving to turn those reins of me over to Him permanently so that I will be more like Him... whatever exactly that is.


You don't need to convince me on the no unending torment. That is where I have been for many years. I get tired easily now and only delve into such specifics when God leads me that way. My early mornings belong to Him and that is when I read my Bibles and talk to God. I guess that I have some of those ATs myself, but really it would be difficult for me to describe them. With this virus limitation still in effect around us and applying strongly to my wife with a severely compromised immune system I only leave our little apartment only when absolutely necessary. Here is all I need although I miss the direct personal association with other people to talk about the things of God...

I appreciate your being candid and gentle. I'm not here to judge but I like to give a perspective that maybe others haven't heard. So I do appreciate your responses. We can all just keep searching brother.

 

[Pneuma]

So when scripture tells us that death shall be destroyed, you believe everyone... Literally everyone... Regardless of the life they lived... Will be brought back to life? So salvation is for all and it's totally unconditional?

I do believe that everyone will eventually receive the Life of Jesus but it's not unconditional. The condition of Christ is righteousness. NOBODY, I REPEAT NOBODY, got their Righteousness without having it given to them by the Lord. And the Lord even gave the CHIEF of sinners (Apostle Paul) His very precious Life also. So if Paul can be saved, who should we think couldn't be?

 

[Brakelite]

who should we think couldn't be

all those who hate Jesus and everything He stands for. All those who adamantly refuse to repent and turn away from sin. All those who love unrighteousness and hate righteousness. Those who love darkness rather than light. Those who have no trust, no belief, no faith in God, for without it it is impossible to please Him. These guys....
KJV Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[Pneuma]

all those who hate Jesus and everything He stands for. All those who adamantly refuse to repent and turn away from sin. All those who love unrighteousness and hate righteousness. Those who love darkness rather than light. Those who have no trust, no belief, no faith in God, for without it it is impossible to please Him. These guys....
KJV Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So did you read that, outside the gates of the city are all those things. Those are sinners. A sinner has sin and sins. But Christ is about the universal ERADICATION of sin.

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So the reason Christ was brought to us is to ERADICATE SIN!!! He didn't come to just move sinners to a new location. The doctrine of Hell is just a relocation plan, and doesn't address sin at all. So I hope others go and really understand the words for which "Hell" is translated from and get a whole new understanding.

 

[Brakelite]

So did you read that, outside the gates of the city are all those things. Those are sinners. A sinner has sin and sins. But Christ is about the universal ERADICATION of sin.

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So the reason Christ was brought to us is to ERADICATE SIN!!! He didn't come to just move sinners to a new location. The doctrine of Hell is just a relocation plan, and doesn't address sin at all. So I hope others go and really understand the words for which "Hell" is translated from and get a whole new understanding.

Well, you are correct in so far as you went. But you didn't actually address the question. Or rather my answer. You asked, if Paul can be saved why not anyone else? Now I agree there is no reason anyone cannot be saved... But they do need to be saved. And it is up to them to accept the gift offered. I listed people who did not accept that gift. They died in their sins. Their entire lives we spent in selfish pleasure or thoughtless disregard for others. They never changed. They heard the gospel, and rejected it. And here they are, outside the city, and still the very same as when they lived on Earth. Dead in trespasses and wickedness. "Except you are born again...
'.... And they weren't. My friend, they shall for the second death, from which there is no Resurrection. They stay dead. Cease to exist. To think that such will one day actually be in heaven or the new Earth would imperil the security of the kingdom... No such people will ever be acceptable to God. What character we die with... That is the character we take with us into eternity. Sinners do not inherit eternal life. The shutting out from Eden to fallen mankind should teach us that.

 

[Pneuma]

Well, you are correct in so far as you went. But you didn't actually address the question. Or rather my answer. You asked, if Paul can be saved why not anyone else? Now I agree there is no reason anyone cannot be saved... But they do need to be saved. And it is up to them to accept the gift offered. I listed people who did not accept that gift. They died in their sins. Their entire lives we spent in selfish pleasure or thoughtless disregard for others. They never changed. They heard the gospel, and rejected it. And here they are, outside the city, and still the very same as when they lived on Earth. Dead in trespasses and wickedness. "Except you are born again...
'.... And they weren't. My friend, they shall for the second death, from which there is no Resurrection. They stay dead. Cease to exist. To think that such will one day actually be in heaven or the new Earth would imperil the security of the kingdom... No such people will ever be acceptable to God. What character we die with... That is the character we take with us into eternity. Sinners do not inherit eternal life. The shutting out from Eden to fallen mankind should teach us that.

Sounds like you may believe in Annihilationism. Let's consider what Moses said if God wouldn't take away the sins of the Israelites that sinned against God:

Well God will have all to be saved so this is the answer:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[LC627]

All roads lead to Heaven then. By your own theology you make your Lord out to be a liar.

 

[LC627]

I guess Satan and the fallen demons will be saved then, too.

 

[Pneuma]

All roads lead to Heaven then. By your own theology you make your Lord out to be a liar.

No only one road leads to Heaven but all eventually will get on it. There will be a huge detour placed on the other roads soon. ;-)

 

[LC627]

No only one road leads to Heaven but all eventually will get on it. There will be a huge detour placed on the other roads soon. ;-)

If they all eventually get there then they lead there

 

[Pneuma]

If they all eventually get there then they lead there

I would agree that, God plan to save all - they all get saved. His plans don't fail.

 

[Scoot]

Thank you for your good response ...I don’t think we have spoken before. <snip>

Hi Helen,

Thanks very much for your generous and gracious response to my post. No - I don't believe we have conversed directly before, but I have liked much of what I have seen from you.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in such detail (especially at 2:30 in the morning, and that on an ipad). At least I have the blessing of reponding in the day, and with a keyboard.

Also, please forgive me in advance. It's taken the whole morning to come to this place - I have typed this post, gone over it numerous times. Prayed over it. And it's still enough text to write a small novel which I understand most will flip over and not read through. (The site won't allow me to post it, a maximum of 1,000 words, so I'll have to split it up sorry). Yes - I admit this is a weakness of mine but I don't know how to write less and share the same. I'm sorry. (Hopefully it doesn't keep you up to 2:30 am again)

In saying that, and if I may... from reading your post it sounds like you are convinced, and to be honest I have no interest in arguing with anyone on this site. I hope I will always respect you (and all other members) on this site in a way that I can stand before God with a clear conscious on judgement day, and treat others in a way that reflects Christ Himself.

Like you, I'm also not interested in going tit-for-tat with scriptures to prove one's superior understanding of the scriptures. I only ever want to go down that line if it's in the spirit for both to gain a greater understanding of those scriptures together, as iron sharpens iron in the spirit of sharing and learning from each other, instead of argument.

Firstly I was wondering if you have a link (shortcut) to where you have explained this before? I don't expect (or want) you to repeat yourself, but I would be very interested in seeing the root word studies you have done and how you have come to your conclusion so I can gain an understanding of why you have the perspective you have. (Gaining an understanding does not mean I have to agree - but I would love to understand why).

If you would bear with me too, I would like to explain part of my understanding on this as well as part of my testemony.

Not with the intent to argue, nor to convince, but in the hope that we will have a better understanding of each other going forward with conversations. If you would entertain me and my wall of text - I think you'll find my story and approach (and conclusion even) very different from others you may have had dialogs with before, and hopefully in some way be a blessing to you....

TO BE CONTINUED...

 

[Scoot]

(PART 2)

I come from a place of growing up in a Christian family. My whole life (almost) has been spent in church. The church I was attending for the majority of my life up until very recently was charismatic pentecostal. To cut a extremely long testimony short (as short as I can) to only focus only on relevant particulars, as a late teenager I started to question what I was seeing in Church. Church was proclaiming one thing, but I was seeing another. (Especially with, but not limited to healing). When something was claimed from scripture, and then the opposite occurred (ie - someone died) - it was ignored, swept under the carpet and felt like a taboo topic to talk about. But worse, nothing was changed. We rinsed and repeated our actions. (What's the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over again without change expecting different results)?

This set me on a journey for truth. Why am I a Christian? Because I was brought up in a Christian home?Why do I believe what I believe? Because I've listened to others tell me?

If Christianity is true, and if I was brought up Muslim - is my mind open enough that I would convert? Or alternatively what if Christianity isn't true and Islam, atheism or another belief is? Am I open minded enough and diligent enough to search out and find the truth there? I loved God, I loved the bible, I hated sin - but something was not right. Something was definitely not right.

<snip - skip an hours of reading to get to my conclusion>

The conclusion of my search was to come to an understanding of the uniqueness of scripture - which I won't go into here but suffice to say that I have a undeniable and complete trust now for the original scriptures in the bible. With that solid trust in scripture I started searching for the truth in the scriptures.

My search wasn't for what people concluded from it, but my heart yearned for what it really said at the deepest levels. Where it said something and I saw the opposite - I dug deeper. Into the Greek and Hebrew meanings, talked to many (including JW's, LDS's, and so forth) to try and get different perspectives on a matter to see the scriptures as they speak for themselves, not what mans tradition, or my upbringing bias, or anything else stated. I yearned to see how contradicting scriptures compliment each other - and answered questions for what I was seeing.

This brought me to the cross, and Christ. My faith is not based on a feeling, on an experience, or anything else of that nature - it's based foundationally on God's word - and all else must fall in line with His word. I am willing to consider some things that are outside (ie, demonic deliverance where the scriptures appear unclear at the moment) ,but I can not and will not accept anything that goes against scripture.

Prior to this I have had many 'encounters' in Church. But a number of these I realise now were likely to be emotional, brought on by things such as lighting, music, and so forth - all attributed without any reservation or question by the church to the work of The Holy Spirit. I started to notice that felt some of these same emotions watching other non Christian concerts. That got me asking questions as to what was real there.

So through all this, I trust and only trust scripture. My yearn was and is for the Holy Spirit to reveal to me through revelation of the scriptures His truth. (Not an external revelation separate from scriptures).

I found I couldn't trust feelings, and I can't even trust my own logic - I can't even trust any convictions, and not even a 'word from God'. I can only trust the scriptures - and when I see contradiction in scripture I know it is me that is at fault with my understanding, not the scriptures and thus I will search deeper.

When a feeling, conviction, a 'word from God', etc agrees completely with scripture, then I can trust it. If it disagrees with scripture I can not.

I also had my eyes opened that Satan doesn't just lie - he uses truth (and even scripture!!) in very deceptive ways. I consider where Jesus was tempted as an example. This to me shouts even louder - the scripture I hear must never disagree with other scripture in order to be understood accurately. Any scripture on it's own that has opposing scripture is likely misunderstood, and being used by Satan to deceive and lead astray.

For the sake of my soul I can not afford to ignore any scripture that disagrees with my understanding on another scripture.

 

[Scoot]

(Part 3)

Since then I have observed all sorts of "leading by the spirit" in our Church I question greatly. The most recent example of this where 4 pastors plus other men with great faith (who I believe are all genuine in their belief) - claimed they have heard from The Holy Spirit something that is irreconcilable with each other. (All 4 pastors claimed that God said they where to be the new senior pastor and the others not, and these had other "men of God", elders, external pastors, etc sided with them).

So here I was observing a church that practiced in the spritual realm all the time, allows so much to be said such as "Thus says the Lord", ignoring when things didn't line up with what they claimed, all they heard from God and that the other parties are wrong. (Needless to say it's left a mess behind too - but like usual - people aren't asking the big question - they're ignoring and moving on).

And through all this - a church with claims to be switched on spiritually, and in tune with God's Holy Spirit - ignoring probably one of the most fundamental aspects of the spiritual realm - which is to test the spirits according to 1 John 4.

I had to ask the shocking question: What spirit are these well intentioned pastors really hearing from? All 4 of them can't be hearing the truth.

I realised why I struggled so much in this church. That I think my faith is of the opposite spectrum from theirs. Theirs is based on what they hear in the spirit and their conscious and conviction agrees with - which they then turn to find scriptures to complement, ignoring other scriptures that don't. Mine I believe comes from reading the scriptures and asking the Holy Spirit to give me His revelation of those scriptures in it's full context.

As a result - I do not put trust in my logic. I cry out to God often to lead me and guide me, and to use His rod to correct me - because I know I will fail if I lean on my own feelings, or even my own logic. I know I will go astray. I know I'm going to get it wrong. I beg him to guide me and if needed - strike me with that rod that I may stay on the narrow path. I am at the complete mercy of Him revealing truth to me, and His rod and staff truly comfort me - knowing that he will answer my prayer and do whatever is necessary to make sure I am in The Way.

How does all this relate to our conversation then? Well, firstly - in regards to the whole Hell thing - I personally don't like the word Hell. I believe it's confusing and a mis-representation of what the scriptures talk about. Scripture talks about Hades (being temporary), and then the lake of fire - which are two separate places which Hades is cast into. Whereas most people take the 'traditional' approach and only refer to people going to hell when they die - forever. But you can't throw hell into hell.

For me with my current studies, I can only find 4 conclusions to what I have read for the unrepentant sinner:

1) Sinners go to Hades where they suffer in tournament until the day of judgement, and then are cast into the lake of fire where they suffer eternally.

2) Sinners go to Hades where they suffer in tournament until the day of judgement, and then are cast into the lake of fire where they are annihilated.

3) Sinners go to Hades where they sleep until the day of judgement, and then are cast into the lake of fire where they suffer eternally.

4) Sinners go to Hades where they sleep until the day of judgement, and then are cast into the lake of fire where they are annihilated.

I know that the strong traditional approach for this (and by many it's called heresy if it's not proclaimed) is #1. I'm a little more open, and being honest "I don't know". It seems strange that Hades and the Lake of Fire are exactly the same experience - why would Hades need to be thrown into the lake of fire (or hell into hell). But I also understand that is my logic - and I do not trust my own logic. But the scripture as I read it supports sinners ending up in the lake of fire which is permanent.

But that's really a secondary issue to me - the thing that concerns me the most throughout all this is that their are other spirits, and Satan himself is known as an angel of light. I see many people claim they have direct revelation from God on an issue that absolutely differs with someone else to the point that I strongly believe that Satan is currently deceiving many believers by deceiving them into believing that his voice is that of God's.

So many people, all convinced that God has spoken to them and all others are wrong... all being lead by..... who? It's a terrifying thought. Further more I am seeing more and more different 'gospel messages' being proclaimed - all by people who have 'heard from God' on the issue. Apparently Christians have had it wrong for nearly 2,000 years and a select few are the enlightened ones now with the truth. This has alarm bells ringing in my head in a big way - especially because I know there can only be one gospel message, and all others lead to damnation.

The only solution that I can see from this is not our feelings, or our convictions - but whether or not our conscious, or the voice we hear lines up with scripture absolutely. It is our duty as Christians to apply 1 John 4 to every voice we hear.

 

[Scoot]

(PART 4)

If you're still reading -thank you so much for taking the time out to read my lengthy reply (which in honesty - is short considering my full testimony ).

I will not try to convince you otherwise of your belief. Being honest - I couldn't even say if what I believe is 100% true because with what I've explained - I do not trust my own logic. But what I would like to encourage you in is one thing. Please test the spirits! I know you have a conviction and are at peace, and believe that peace is of God.

My great concern I have and what I would to encourage you to consider is this:

What if you are wrong? What if the gospel message you are believing and proclaiming is false and a lie from Satan himself, and that the spirit that lead you to that conclusion was not the Holy Spirit?​

I'm not saying you are, or aren't. I do not consider myself mature enough to make such bold claims. I have convictions. I have understanding of scripture I will discuss passionately. But I don't think I'm worthy enough and understand scripture fully enough to make judgements. I've been brought up in, and spent the large majority of my life in a church that appears to me to be quite screwed up. How much of that still has an influence on me too? Maybe I'm a coward? In that I won't pick one of the 4 options above and stick to it, or quote a doctrinal confession of faith put together by man, or come to a conclusion on something I'm not certain on and stick to it - but rather be honest about my convictions and doubts? If I am a coward, may God forgive me, give me a clear conviction on the matter 100% through His word and give me the grace to be able to explain to others through scripture and allow His Holy Spirit to convict in the rest, and have a mantle of spiritual authority to bind all other spirits from interfering with His word in the process.

May God grant us both the ability to hear clearly from Him, via His word and His Holy Spirit, keep us in the faith and deliver us from Sin and our own weaknesses, and expose any lie that we believe to be from Him.

I hope these posts weren't a waste of time for you to read and that you've found it a blessing instead of a pain. And give you an insight into my logic (seeing how my mind works could indeed be painful ). I love your gentleness, and willingness to converse, which is why I have opened up about some things that are quite sensitive to me. Thank you so much.

Scoot

 

[DNB]

Consider that you stated that God fails in #4. Your saying that God can fail to persuade but that wasn't an attempt to persuade Pharoh, it was a successful attempt to harden pharohs heart.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

You agreed that God does everything with a purpose, you agreed that God does gives life, you agreed He gets what He wants. Then do you also agree that God knows the End from the Beginning?

Rom 9:17-18 was speaking about God's hidden purpose. God exerted a great deal of force that would've compelled 90% of humans to relent to Moses' demands. God's efforts were to persuade Pharoah to comply with God's desire for His people. But God's persistence only incriminated Pharoah further. Exodus explains what was going through Pharoah's mind, each time that he decided to defy God's will. When God hardens or softens people, he merely exposes what is deep in their heart, requiring a particular circumstance to manifest one's true sentiments.

You read my responses, i did not unequivocally agree to all the things that you said I did. I actually did not agree with any of them, in the context that you were attempting to establish them. You were wrong on every point, as far as supporting your position of Universalism was concerned. There were profound exceptions to all your predicates, which i pointed out.
Yes, God knows the beginning from the end.

Quit playing this game of loaded questions. Show some depth to your thoughts. God is one big paradox. His wrath is severe, and his compassion is unwarranted and immeasurable. He is merciful and jealous, forgiving and austere, ... You show ignorance to the complexity and profundity of His covenants and will, by reducing His Word to a few pointed questions.