Universal Salvation

[LC627]

I would agree that, God plan to save all - they all get saved. His plans don't fail.

Why then do you hold to the Christian faith if in the end it does not matter?

 

[amadeus]

I appreciate your being candid and gentle. I'm not here to judge but I like to give a perspective that maybe others haven't heard. So I do appreciate your responses. We can all just keep searching brother.

Give God the glory!

 

[Mayflower]

Ask yourself these questions:

1.) Does God desire all to be saved?
2.) Can God fail?
3.) Would God give you every opportunity to be saved?
4.) Can God fail to persuade?
5.) Does God get what He wants?
6.) Does God finish what He starts?
7.) Does God give life?
8.) Does God do everything with a purpose?

The questions are there to stimulate your thoughts on this subject.

God will have all to be saved in due time such that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. And nobody can confess that Jesus is Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit.

1. Yes, God desires all to come to be saved and come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9; 1 Tim. 2:4)

2. If He wanted to. He is Omnipotent.

3. Yes. He would give you every opportunity.

4. If He wanted to fail to persuade. He wanted people to love and choose Him. He didn't want slaves. People choose flesh over God, so He allows it, so people will have a choice.

5. I am not sure if God always gets what He wants. It is a sad thought. He makes promises to us as Believers.

6. Yes. God always finishes what He starts.

7. God gives life and life in abundance. So grateful for that.

8. Amen. Yes.

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."
Romans 8:28 NASB

 

[Mayflower]

love the questions. Thanks!!!

 

[Brakelite]

@Scoot . Beginning my life as Catholic and after coming to Jesus as a young adult then spending nearly 20 years in Pentecostal churches, I came to the same conclusion as you.
Since then the last 23, years has been a discovery of Who God is. What He is like. His character. And the overriding characteristic of His nature... The attribute by which all of His actions must be rooted, is love. When I considered the destiny of mankind, and like you came up against what appeared to be conflicting scriptures and certainly conflicting theories regarding those scriptures, I made my final decision based on what I had learned about Who God is. God is Love. He loves both sinner and saint alike. But love cannot contradict justice... It must harmonise with justice... And justice must harmonise with mercy... And all must harmonise with love. Which is why I found your number 4 option the only one that harmonised with what I had learned of God. There only one that harmonised with love. Yes, even annihilation harmonises with love.

 

[Pneuma]

Rom 9:17-18 was speaking about God's hidden purpose. God exerted a great deal of force that would've compelled 90% of humans to relent to Moses' demands. God's efforts were to persuade Pharoah to comply with God's desire for His people. But God's persistence only incriminated Pharoah further. Exodus explains what was going through Pharoah's mind, each time that he decided to defy God's will. When God hardens or softens people, he merely exposes what is deep in their heart, requiring a particular circumstance to manifest one's true sentiments.

You read my responses, i did not unequivocally agree to all the things that you said I did. I actually did not agree with any of them, in the context that you were attempting to establish them. You were wrong on every point, as far as supporting your position of Universalism was concerned. There were profound exceptions to all your predicates, which i pointed out.
Yes, God knows the beginning from the end.

Quit playing this game of loaded questions. Show some depth to your thoughts. God is one big paradox. His wrath is severe, and his compassion is unwarranted and immeasurable. He is merciful and jealous, forgiving and austere, ... You show ignorance to the complexity and profundity of His covenants and will, by reducing His Word to a few pointed questions.

Rom 9:17-18 was speaking about God's hidden purpose. God exerted a great deal of force that would've compelled 90% of humans to relent to Moses' demands. God's efforts were to persuade Pharoah to comply with God's desire for His people. But God's persistence only incriminated Pharoah further. Exodus explains what was going through Pharoah's mind, each time that he decided to defy God's will. When God hardens or softens people, he merely exposes what is deep in their heart, requiring a particular circumstance to manifest one's true sentiments.

You read my responses, i did not unequivocally agree to all the things that you said I did. I actually did not agree with any of them, in the context that you were attempting to establish them. You were wrong on every point, as far aes supporting your position of Universalism was concerned. There were profound exceptions to all your predicates, which i pointed out.
Yes, God knows the beginning from the end.

Quit playing this game of loaded questions. Show some depth to your thoughts. God is one big paradox. His wrath is severe, and his compassion is unwarranted and immeasurable. He is merciful and jealous, forgiving and austere, ... You show ignorance to the complexity and profundity of His covenants and will, by reducing His Word to a few pointed questions.

Forgive me as I'm not even really sure what a loaded question is but I know in sincerity here that my motives are not to get over on anyone. I'm simply presenting my understanding to take into context to this discussion. Now you claim that God was not trying to harden pharoh and I pointed out the verses in Romans. Now let me point out those in Exodus:

Exo_4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Now would you agree after reading that verse that God was trying to harden Pharohs heart?

 

[Pneuma]

Why then do you hold to the Christian faith if in the end it does not matter?

I never said it doesn't matter. On the contrary, the only way to salvation is through Christ.

 

[Pneuma]

1. Yes, God desires all to come to be saved and come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9; 1 Tim. 2:4)

2. If He wanted to. He is Omnipotent.

3. Yes. He would give you every opportunity.

4. If He wanted to fail to persuade. He wanted people to love and choose Him. He didn't want slaves. People choose flesh over God, so He allows it, so people will have a choice.

5. I am not sure if God always gets what He wants. It is a sad thought. He makes promises to us as Believers.

6. Yes. God always finishes what He starts.

7. God gives life and life in abundance. So grateful for that.

8. Amen. Yes.

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."
Romans 8:28 NASB

So if God knows the end from the beginning and God does everything with a purpose and can't fail, then why give them Life?

And God seems to counter any argument that He can fail to persuade:

Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[Scoot]

Hi Pneuma,

To try and help me understand where you are coming from (if you would) - I have a few questions I was hoping you wouldn't mind answering, because I'm struggling to understand how you can come to your perspective through scripture.

(I'm happy for @Helen and @Rita to join in too - but I completely understand and respect if they have been through this before and have no desire to converse with me on this subject).


1) From your posts, it seems as though you believe that God always gets what He wants.

I was wondering how do you reconcile this with the numerous occasions in scripture where this is not true? Or is it that you believe that God wanted those things in the first place and that everything that has happened (including Sin) is actually desired by God?



2) I was wondering how do you see God? Do you see Him as being finite, or infinite?

No, universal salvation doesn't mean one shouldn't repent. It means that those that don't repent will have to PAY for their sins. But that doesn't mean there is no end to their paying.

From my perspective and current understanding - I can see how sinning against someone who is finite can have an end to their punishment - because the offense is against someone who has limits, then the price for their punishment has a limit.

However for a God who is infinite - who's Holiness has no bounds, and no ends - where the four living creatures continue for eternity to proclaim God's holiness (as I suspect each time they get a new glimpse that they haven't seen before) - I can understand likewise an eternal punishment.

Through my understanding of mathematics and the concept of infinitism - it helps me grasp the concept - even though I can't fully understand or comprehend the fullness of both his infiniteness and likewise the sin that is to go against Him. It's also through this that it helps me understand why only Christ - who is also infinite could pay the price in full for sins against an infinite God.

And while I say understand - being honest and transparent - I still struggle with this myself as I look at my unsaved friends and consider this potential - it's horrifying indeed.

It seems to depends on my focus. When I look at my friends, myself, or the world - or their suffering - I can not conceive how it is possible.

However when I look towards God and His never ending Holiness, and the suffering that Jesus went through - and consider as much as my brain will allow what it must be to actually sin against Him - even though my knowledge of God is less than a single drop of water in the whole ocean, so my understanding of the offense I have made against Him must be severely limited as well - and can accept with the small amount of faith I have that one day we are going to see the severity of our sin - and on that day will we understand in full.


(Whether that is eternal suffering, or ends up with annihilation, or otherwise I do not know for sure. My mind is too small and can not conceive all that God has done here on earth, let alone conceive what He will do in eternity).

Having shared my views, I was wondering if you would mind please too sharing in same detail how do you see the sin against God? Do you see that God is finite and has a limit therefore the sin against Him has a limit, or do you see sin against Him being infinite that only the sacrifice of someone also being infinite could pay the price?



3) If there is another way (we pay for our sins, and it's a finite punishment and then we can live with God) - how do you reconcile why did Jesus' prayer went unanswered in Matthew 26:39?

Why was the sacrifice of Jesus required (or even considered) if we can pay for our own sins in the end? How could God have allowed His son to go through all that if it wasn't required?



4) When Jesus says that He is the way, the truth and the life (in John 14:6). How do you reconcile this with your understanding that not all need to come through Him, but rather they can pay for their own sins?


and finally, if you would be so kind...


5) Do you believe scripture is inerrant and the word of God - or do you believe that it contains errors?


From my limited perspective, not only is universalism non scriptural - but it also reduces God to being finite, as well as the seriousness of sinning against Him, which shows that only Christ could ever pay the price because the sin is so severe itself.

Thanks in advance...

Scoot

 

[Scoot]

@Scoot . Beginning my life as Catholic and after coming to Jesus as a young adult then spending nearly 20 years in Pentecostal churches, I came to the same conclusion as you.
Since then the last 23, years has been a discovery of Who God is. What He is like. His character. And the overriding characteristic of His nature... The attribute by which all of His actions must be rooted, is love. When I considered the destiny of mankind, and like you came up against what appeared to be conflicting scriptures and certainly conflicting theories regarding those scriptures, I made my final decision based on what I had learned about Who God is. God is Love. He loves both sinner and saint alike. But love cannot contradict justice... It must harmonise with justice... And justice must harmonise with mercy... And all must harmonise with love. Which is why I found your number 4 option the only one that harmonised with what I had learned of God. There only one that harmonised with love. Yes, even annihilation harmonises with love.

Hi @Brakelite2,

Thanks for sharing that with me. I'm humbled that you took the time to read through my extensive response to Helen!

I admit, I struggle with #4. It sounds great from my limited perspective as a human (no actual suffering for my non-christian friends) - except that it denies the severity of the sin against an infinite God (as expressed in the post just before this one). It leads me in the end to the conclusions (and these are my logic, so are definitely fallible):

1) God does not want anyone to suffer, but all to accept Christ - hence the urgency of the gospel message.

2) Regardless of what the punishment is - I don't want it, and no one else will want it in the end - (even those who hate their life and long for death.)

3) The punishment will fit the crime - as God is righteous and His righteousness demands it. What scares me is that He is also Holy - and what punishment is fit for someone who sins against a infinitely Holy. (Two things that we can not understand and most of us probably struggle to grasp the most basic comprehension of, both infinite and holy).

I'm conservative. If I'm going to err - I'm going to err on the side of caution. Honestly - I'm here today because my fear of God & eternal suffering kept my hand from killing myself. It wasn't God's love that kept me from suicide, but my fear of Him. If I believed that #4 was real - there was a very dark point in my life when I was younger where I would have ended it years ago. I am grateful for my fear of #1 now - even if it's wrong.

Thanks for responding and sharing!

 

[Pneuma]

Replying to Scoot:

1) From your posts, it seems as though you believe that God always gets what He wants.
Yes, I do believe He always get what He wants. Those areas where you believe He doesn't is just not so. For example, I DO believe God wants sin to occur at this time. I believe He wanted Adam and Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit. I say this because, He is creating His own kind and His own kinds knows good and evil. Therefore, we also must know good and therefore suffer evil to understand how Good - Good is.

2) I was wondering how do you see God? Do you see Him as being finite, or infinite?
I see God as always existing and as Spirit and therefore everything is in His complete control whether it be the actions of the righteous or the sinners.
Rom_9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

3) If there is another way (we pay for our sins, and it's a finite punishment and then we can live with God) - how do you reconcile why did Jesus' prayer went unanswered in Matthew 26:39?
I can only think it is because anguish had to be a part of the task He had to undergo. Jesus is still the redemption for everyone. His Death is still a requirement even for those that must pay for their sins because without His sacrifice payment for sin wouldn't even be sufficient recall this is what we learned in the Old Testament. They paid for their sins but would just sin again and bring more sacrifices to continue to be redeemed. Hebrews goes into this more.

4) When Jesus says that He is the way, the truth and the life (in John 14:6). How do you reconcile this with your understanding that not all need to come through Him, but rather they can pay for their own sins?

5) Do you believe scripture is inerrant and the word of God - or do you believe that it contains errors?
I do believe there are errors in the texts we have. If you compare texts between our current Bibles and Dead Sea Scrolls there are differences, but in the most part is highly correlated and relative. But the Spirit can guide you to what to hold true and what to discard and how to reconcile.

Again, I believe all do have to come through Him. It is not that all have to come through Him now. But remember, the Levites had to be sanctified first and then the rest of the congregation was sanctified. The same thing is happening now. those in this present dispensation will be the New Testament Priest that will reign with the Lord at His coming and being involved in the atonement of the rest of mankind.

 

[LC627]

I never said it doesn't matter. On the contrary, the only way to salvation is through Christ.

But if God is going to override it all in the end then it doesn't matter because all will confess Christ.

 

[Brakelite]

I admit, I struggle with #4. It sounds great from my limited perspective as a human (no actual suffering for my non-christian friends) -

Okay. Let me address this first then you may want to revise the rest of your response. I do not see number 4 as an option that excludes suffering. Jesus said that someone who sins more will suffer "with more stripes".
KJV Luke 12
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Jesus obviously doesn't mean literally beaten, but He does mean literally suffer... Justly and fairly according to his works. I trust God to be just. Sinners will suffer in torment according to their works, and then die.

 

[Brakelite]

I DO believe God wants sin to occur at this time.

. I believe He wanted Adam and Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit.

You are revealing yourself the deeper we go into this. And it's not getting any better. You need to start again. You don't know God well enough or His purposes. I make no apology for that statement because you are so so astray in your thinking.

 

[Scoot]

Okay. Let me address this first then you may want to revise the rest of your response. I do not see number 4 as an option that excludes suffering. Jesus said that someone who sins more will suffer "with more stripes".
KJV Luke 12
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Jesus obviously doesn't mean literally beaten, but He does mean literally suffer... Justly and fairly according to his works. I trust God to be just. Sinners will suffer in torment according to their works, and then die.

Hi @Brakelite2,

Thanks for your reply. If sinners don't suffer in Hades, or Gahanna, at which point do you believe they suffer?

The rest of my response would still stand to reflect my understanding and thoughts, just that I misunderstood your perspective on #4.

 

[Scoot]

Replying to Scoot:

Thanks for responding to my questions @Pneuma, and explaining your views further.

If I have it right - I think your reply reveals to me in part why you believe the way you do. If I was to accept the logic that Adam and Eve were doomed from the start because it was God's will that they sin, and God has everything he wants, and none of us truly has choices - everything we do is as a puppet from God - then I can the rest of your logic also fits into universalism - all the way to the extent of those who preach false gospel's.

For me, I am unable to follow you with your logic further, in part because I believe that God gave us free will, and that He hates sin, and that Sin is of our doing - not of God's. I can see why you have said some of what you have said, but I also have concerns with how you address scripture. Such as the use of 'will' in my original post/reply to this thread (post #8 of this thread). Please understand - as per my previous long winded post to Helen - I grew up in a church that would ignore things that didn't fit with their ideology. I'm extremely wary of scenario's where I see scripture used similarly.

If - as you say - the gospel message as you understand it is correct and I am wrong - I guess there's no eternal harm for me to believe the way that I do as in the end we'll all be saved - (well, further more there's no choice - what I believe now is what God wants me to believe using that logic - and I have no choice - what will be, will be). As a programmer, I see it that it would mean we are little more than conscious computer running a set program we can't deviate from.

If on the other hand, the gospel message as I understand it is correct and you are wrong - I truly fear for your eternal future. Don't get me wrong - I don't wish you harm at all - but I believe Paul was clear in Galatians about false gospel messages.

Thank you for responding to me politely - it is greatly appreciated.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Universalism means the exile from Eden, the Great Flood, the issuing & enforcement of the Law, the Babylonian Captivity, and all of God's penal judgments are immoral.

Revelation 5:13 depicts all Creation, good or bad, righteous or unrighteous, in heaven or not, as acknowledging and applauding the superlative quality and worthiness of the Redeemer. This does not mean all people will be saved by the Redeemer, just that the unsaved acknowledge the worthiness of the Redeemer whom they have rejected, with eternal consequences.

 

[Brakelite]

You are revealing yourself the deeper we go into this. And it's not getting any better. You need to start again. You don't know God well enough or His purposes. I make no apology for that statement because you are so so astray in your thinking.

@Pneuma okay. With all the above said, don't feel bad. None of us know the Lord as we should. Remember Joshua meeting up with the Angel of the Lord? There he was, the leader of Israel, just spent the last 40 years as Moses protege, Jesus standing in front of him, and Joshua asks, ummm, who are you? Are you for us or against us? I do wonder and fear somewhat for modern Christians. Are they really any better off the the Jews who didn't recognize the Lord when He came? If Jesus started contributing to this forum under another moniker, how many do you think would start arguing with Him and debating His doctrines? Probably most of us.

 

[Brakelite]

Thanks for your reply. If sinners don't suffer in Hades, or Gahanna, at which point do you believe they suffer?

KJV Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.(of God's people who had died throughout all ages when they were Resurrected at the second coming)
KJV Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Who are the rest of the dead? Is it not those who were not resurrected in the first Resurrection, but slept until the second? So once resurrected, at the end of the thousand years, what happens?
KJV Revelation 20
The Final Judgement
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations (those wicked just resurrected) which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about (the new Jerusalem which had just descended out of heaven to the earth), and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Remember the scripture that asks, "who stand stand in the midst of devouring fire"? Here's your answer... Those safe in the city. The righteous. Who shall not stand and be punished with everlastng punishment? The wicked who with the devil attempted to take the throne by force. They will suffer for a time appropriate to their wickedness, but eventually the fire shall devour them... Even the devil. This is there true hell fire, and it's on the surface of the earth. This fire cleanses the entire planet of 7000 years of war torn rubble and pollution... And then Jesus recreates everything...a new heaven and a new Earth wherein dwells righteousness. And not a sinner any where in Gods universe to mar the perfection of God's kingdom.

 

[FollowHim]

The scriptures dispute this. Let me show you:

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Now notice in those verses that EVERY TONGUE will CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord. Who's tongues? EVERY tongue - EVERYWHERE.

What is a requirement to CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord? - What does our Bible say:

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So you see, every tongue that is everywhere is going to have the Holy Ghost and confess that Jesus is Lord.

I think you have miss-understood Pauls meaning.

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil 2:9-11

Paul is saying Jesus will be declared that He is God and that every tongue will have to recognise this.
Here on earth we only recognise it because God has given us the Holy Spirit.

In heaven where there is no veil, demons confess Jesus is Lord, it does not mean everyone is saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.
Those who are tormented in the lake of fire for worshipping the beast know Jesus is Lord and are eternally lost and doomed.