Mary, Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ

[Nancy]

You’re right.
Luke 1:28 doesn’t say, “Hail MARY”. It says “Hail, KECHARITOMENE” – which is FAR more significant.

Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle that indicates a PAST even with PERMANENT result. It translates as “Perfectly, completely and enduringly endowed with grace.”

YOU are not in this condition.
I am not in this condition.
Only those in HEAVEN are in this condition. You and I hope on one day be in this condition.

Mary is the ONLY one in ALL of Scripture to be given this title. THAT’S what God did for Mary that makes her special.
Special enough to carry GOD Himself in her womb . . .

As for “Pray” – this word does NOT only mean “worship”.

In fact the definition of “Pray” simply means to ASK. It is a legal, juridical term that is used in police reports and court documents. “Worship” is a SECONDARY definition.

The fact is that YOU pray to people EVERY SINGLE DAY – and they pray to YOU.

Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary defines “Pray” as:

1: ENTREAT, IMPLORE —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea pray be careful
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

YOUR turn . . .

Can't say that I pray TO other people as, I don't. Just because it is a "question, request or plea" to another human being, does not equal prayer of petitions to God Himself as...the curtain was rent for a reason...
"for thou hast found grace with God."
Yes, very much agree here. Many others in the bible found favor and grace with God as well. I do recognize that Mary is to be honored above all women and that just makes sense. BUT...I will never ask her to pray for me, not to mention...don't all people in heaven pray always for the lost and for Christians?

 

[DPMartin]

Hmmm, well I have been thinking of Catholic doctrine on Mary lately and the "hail Mary." In this thread we will look at the importance of Mary's role in the Bible, and the Catholic doctrine on Mary and why do Catholics say hail Mary's, if we read Luke 1:28 in the Bible we find out Angel Gabriel said to Mary Mother of Jesus "Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

A real interesting view point though lately I have seen though from Father Rob Galea, is about loving Jesus the way Mary did, having a close relationship with Jesus the way Mary did, and I think that is quite a wonderful viewpoint, because when we think about it Mary the mother of Christ Jesus would have had such a close relationship with Christ Jesus being the mother of Jesus, it was a mother-son relationship and loving mothers absolutely love and care for their children.

And when we read Luke chapter one we learn that Mary was "thou that art highly favoured" we also learn that Angel Gabriel pretty much said hail Mary. "Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God."

While God is higher than Mary, she still is a very important woman and plays a very important role in the Bible and many protestants push that fact aside.

She was chosen to give birth to Jesus, she was chosen to give birth to the Son of God, who entered this world to fulfill the law, to make the new covenant of "Grace", to be the ultimate sacrifice, so that whoever believes in Him shall not die but live an eternal life. Jesus Christ is Lord God, that walked the earth in human flesh, and He entered the world through Virgin Mary, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:26-31

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

she was chosen to serve in the capacity she served but in this case to hail is to cheer, salute, or greet; welcome. to acclaim; approve enthusiastically.

no one gets all la-ti-da about Noah calling him king of this or that, who was chosen to be the father of all who might find grace in God's sight.

she served the Lord her God, simple. if you note she agreed to serve the Lord as Gabriel stated. also she was of the linage just as her espoused was.

she is who she is in the eyes of the Lord.

 

[Taken]

For Protestants Mary is simply the mother of Jesus of Nazareth. For Catholics she is (1) Queen of Heaven, (2) Mediatrix, (3) Co-Redemptrix, and a whole lot more.

Agree.

The Word of God was brought forth out from God and imparted into a Virgin Womb.

Mary was told, the child she would bare WOULD BE CALLED "the Son of God".

Luke 1:...
[35] that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called theSon of God.

Joseph was told to name the baby JESUS.

Matt 1:
[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: ...

Trying to infuse unrealized FUTURE Knowledge into a PAST event undermines the Truth.

JESUS did not come to Earth AS the Christ, Son of God.

Mary Birthed a BABY son.
The Word of God, in a Body God "Prepared" to be Offered to the World.

Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Jesus being "Revealed" the Christ (was Expressly by God to men).
and
Jesus being "called" the Son of God, (was Expressly by God to men.)
"AFTER His birth."

Mary neither Birthed The Christ or the Son of God...
Any more than Mrs. Trump Birthed the President of the United States.

Calling Mary the "Mother of God", undermines Scripture.

God is Eternal, without Mother or Father!

There is a whole cult of Mary in the Catholic Church. Mary's Immaculate Conception has no basis is Scripture. Mary's perpetual virginity has no basis in Scripture. Mary's "spiritual motherhood of men" has no basis in Scripture.Mary's assumption into Heaven has no basis in Scripture. Praying to Mary has no basis is Scripture.

Agree.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Josho]

Hi Josho
I am a wee bit perplexed.
( therefore I will tag @Angelina and @Heart2Soul ...who are also Staff Members here on the site, so they can slap me down if I am doing wrong and tell me to get back in my box. )

I am asking myself why it is that a staff member , who I thought had accepted that position on here - to be a balance when two members are at loggerheads ...and to help to bring a peaceful atmosphere to the site...

So my question is...Why are you pushing the Mary thing..which I cannot find is either encouraged or taught in the bible at all?
Have you not right here started a thread that very well could bring anger, division and conflict.
BreadOfLife will argue his catholic point , but in all my years here I don't remember seeing him START a catholic thread!

I have noticed over the last month that you have posted on this subject a few times, yet I don't remember you ever making a point of it before.

Anything that draws our eyes away from The Father and His Son, is 'another- gospel'.

We ALL have a subject or a personally held belief, or doctrine...but most of us, if we know it will be controversial we 'choose' to hold it close to our chest and not make an issue of it.

So, I have to say I am surprised to see pushing this point...very nicely, and very politely , but nevertheless you are still pushing it.
I really hope it does not turn into a nasty thread , where people speak strongly rather than polity and risk getting themselves suspended for doing so.

For myself I must say that I am disappointed.

My position on Catholicism is very different to others on here. And I believe Catholics are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

We are allowed to discuss Peter, so we should be allowed to discuss Mary and what the Bible has to say about her, there is nothing wrong with discussing Catholic doctrine, the Catholic's view of Mary is protestants biggest issue with the Catholic church, so I wanted to shed some light on why they believe what they believe, and practice what they practice, I myself admit I do not ask Saints from Heaven to pray for me, I only ask other Christians here on earth and pray to the Lord Jesus Christ. But I do believe the souls of the saints and other born again believers have already risen to Heaven, they have new bodies in Heaven, with no pain or suffering.

Also the other massive point in the OP, is to love Jesus the way Mary did, Mary was the mother of Jesus, she must have loved Jesus so much as a mother.

 

[Taken]

Can't say that I pray TO other people as, I don't.

Me either!
Who is this person who makes such a broad sweeping false confession "for" other people?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Philip James]

The way I see it, is Catholics ask Mary and some other Saints to pray for us from Heaven.

Hello Josho,

That is correct. to which some have made objections.

1. that she is dead. (and/or she cant hear us)

Jesus said 'anyone one who believes in me, even if he die, yet will he he live. And anyone who lives and believes in me will never die. do you believe this?'

Since the very beginning the Church's resounding answer is ' Yes, Lord, we believe!'.

The communion of saints, that we speak of in the creed, is not just with those beside us in the pews, but all of our brothers and sisters who have come before us!
St.Paul speaks of a 'great cloud of witnesses' that are cheering us on through our race. And we can ask for and receive their aid. The miracles that occur when their help is invoked are proof that such prayers are efficacious. (the young man in my avatar is one such miracle).

I would further point out that the veneration and honour we give to Mary, and the heroes of our Faith, is fundamentally different than the honour and worship we give to God alone. I suggest you examine the difference between the latin latria and dulia . The distinctions are not so clearly expressed in English.

2. that it takes focus away from Jesus.

No, it does not. Mary always points to Jesus and says 'do whatever He tells you'. Mary always has, and encourages us to have, perfect love for her son.
Jesus is not jealous of Mary. Far from it. As we go grow in loving as He loves, that includes loving His mother with perfect filial love. It pleases Him when we honour His mother as He does. (frankly it is impossible for us to honour her more than He already has in choosing her to be His mother!)

(check out how Soloman honours his mother in 1Kings 2)

Peace!

 

[BreadOfLife]

You obviously haven't done that much studying, or you would know the answer. After 65 years of study, theology, eschatology, church history, church Fathers, do you really think I have at my fingertips everything I have ever studied over those years? or would waste time now trying to
find re-track something which to me is of such insignificance?

In other words, you have ZERO documentation for your bogus claim

That's what I thought . . .

 

[Josho]

Hello Josho,

That is correct. to which some have made objections.

1. that she is dead. (and/or she cant hear us)

Jesus said 'anyone one who believes in me, even if he die, yet will he he live. And anyone who lives and believes in me will never die. do you believe this?'

Since the very beginning the Church's resounding answer is ' Yes, Lord, we believe!'.

The communion of saints, that we speak of in the creed, is not just with those beside us in the pews, but all of our brothers and sisters who have come before us!
St.Paul speaks of a 'great cloud of witnesses' that are cheering us on through our race. And we can ask for and receive their aid. The miracles that occur when their help is invoked are proof that such prayers are efficacious. (the young man in my avatar is one such miracle).

I would further point out that the veneration and honour we give to Mary, and the heroes of our Faith, is fundamentally different than the honour and worship we give to God alone. I suggest you examine the difference between the latin latria and dulia . The distinctions are not so clearly expressed in English.

2. that it takes focus away from Jesus.

No, it does not. Mary always points to Jesus and says 'do whatever He tells you'. Mary always has, and encourages us to have, perfect love for her son.
Jesus is not jealous of Mary. Far from it. As we go grow in loving as He loves, that includes loving His mother with perfect filial love. It pleases Him when we honour His mother as He does. (frankly it is impossible for us to honour her more than He already has in choosing her to be His mother!)

(check out how Soloman honours his mother in 1Kings 2)

Peace!

Also we see in the first miracle Jesus "turning the water into wine."

Mary directed the people to obey Jesus, she told them do whatever he tells you. So too we should do whatever Jesus tells us.

John 2:5
His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

I will look up Latria and dulia later.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You're pretty silly. You equate "praying" to living people as equivalent to PRAYING to DEAD PEOPLE.

To quote Attorney Joseph N. Welch of the 1950's McCarthy Hearings:

... You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency? ...​

... to which I would suggest "sense of integrity" in BOTH instances.

QUESTION: What's the difference between a RELIGIOUS person and a DISHONEST person?
ANSWER: ... I don't know either ...​

Bobby Jo

And for all of your ranting, you failed to answer my question - so I will ask you again:
If everybody in Heaven in the presence of almighty God is "dead" - why do YOU want to go there??

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have no problem speaking the Truth.
Living Body's communicate with Living Body's.
Living Body's with a Quickened spirit can communicate with Living Body's with a Quickened spirit having a spiritual conversation.

No where in Scripture do I find living Bodily persons directed to communicate with dead Body's, or that any Dead body's are in Heaven.

Then read Rev. 5:8, which shows the elders in Heaven interceding on our behalf.

 

[Taken]

My position on Catholicism is very different to others on here. And I believe Catholics are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

We are allowed to discuss Peter, so we should be allowed to discuss Mary and what the Bible has to say about her, there is nothing wrong with discussing Catholic doctrine, the doctrine of Mary, are protestants biggest issue with the Catholic church, so I wanted to shed some light on why they believe what they believe, and practice what they practice, I myself admit I do not ask Saints from Heaven to pray for me, I only ask other Christians here on earth and pray to the Lord Jesus Christ. But I do believe the souls of the saints and other born again believers have already risen to Heaven,

they have new bodies in Heaven, with no pain or suffering.

New Bodies? Where is such a thing taught?

Also the other massive point in the OP, is to love Jesus the way Mary did, Mary was the mother of Jesus, she must have loved Jesus so much as a mother.

I don't see any great teaching about Mary's mothering examples.Not sure what you mean.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Heart2Soul]

Hi Josho
I am a wee bit perplexed.
( therefore I will tag @Angelina and @Heart2Soul ...who are also Staff Members here on the site, so they can slap me down if I am doing wrong and tell me to get back in my box. )

I am asking myself why it is that a staff member , who I thought had accepted that position on here - to be a balance when two members are at loggerheads ...and to help to bring a peaceful atmosphere to the site...

So my question is...Why are you pushing the Mary thing..which I cannot find is either encouraged or taught in the bible at all?
Have you not right here started a thread that very well could bring anger, division and conflict.
BreadOfLife will argue his catholic point , but in all my years here I don't remember seeing him START a catholic thread!

I have noticed over the last month that you have posted on this subject a few times, yet I don't remember you ever making a point of it before.

Anything that draws our eyes away from The Father and His Son, is 'another- gospel'.

We ALL have a subject or a personally held belief, or doctrine...but most of us, if we know it will be controversial we 'choose' to hold it close to our chest and not make an issue of it.

So, I have to say I am surprised to see pushing this point...very nicely, and very politely , but nevertheless you are still pushing it.
I really hope it does not turn into a nasty thread , where people speak strongly rather than polity and risk getting themselves suspended for doing so.

For myself I must say that I am disappointed.

Hey, @Helen I will PM you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Can't say that I pray TO other people as, I don't. Just because it is a "question, request or plea" to another human being, does not equal prayer of petitions to God Himself as...the curtain was rent for a reason...
"for thou hast found grace with God."
Yes, very much agree here. Many others in the bible found favor and grace with God as well. I do recognize that Mary is to be honored above all women and that just makes sense. BUT...I will never ask her to pray for me, not to mention...don't all people in heaven pray always for the lost and for Christians?

Actually – you have prayed to other people – and you DO pray to them.

In fact – you just prayed to ME with that question at the end. As I stated earlier – with a dictionary definition – “Pray” simply means to “ASK”.

Words have different meanings.
The word “beat” can mean a rhythm. It can also mean to defeat somebody. Or it can mean to hit somebody.
ONE word – THREE meanings.

The same is true with the word “Pray”.
When you ask a person here on earth to pray FOR you – you have just prayed TO them.

 

[Enoch111]

Show me in Scripture where it calls her anything other than a virgin

Mary is always called just "Mary" in the NT. There is absolutely no doubt that the conception and birth of Christ was supernatural, and Christ was virgin born. But Mary was not a "perpetual virgin" (as claimed by the RCC). She had other children by Joseph, and Christ is called her "firstborn" son, meaning that others followed.

At the same time the Lord Jesus Christ always addressed His mother as "Woman" (as recorded in the NT) since she is not the Mother of God -- just the mother of the Savior. She would always need to know that her Son was also her Savior and her God. And she had nothing to do with the salvation of mankind.

 

[Enoch111]

Saint Roch, patron saint of dogs!

Your dog would say that "Saint Roch rocks!"

 

[Avalon1]

The Catholic doctrine claims that you can pray to the saints and Mary and they act as intercessors to God, my question is there any scriptures that support this?

 

[Nancy]

Actually – you have prayed to other people – and you DO pray to them.

In fact – you just prayed to ME with that question at the end. As I stated earlier – with a dictionary definition – “Pray” simply means to “ASK”.

Words have different meanings.
The word “beat” can mean a rhythm. It can also mean to defeat somebody. Or it can mean to hit somebody.
ONE word – THREE meanings.

The same is true with the word “Pray”.
When you ask a person here on earth to pray FOR you – you have just prayed TO them.

I do understand the prayer of petition and , I pray FOR people still living and have asked for prayer from others as well, but...those prayers that I ask for, I expect are directed directly to God in my prayer's behalf.
Yes, I do understand the difference between the same words having different meanings.
God Bless

 

[amadeus]

My position on Catholicism is very different to others on here. And I believe Catholics are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

We are allowed to discuss Peter, so we should be allowed to discuss Mary and what the Bible has to say about her, there is nothing wrong with discussing Catholic doctrine, the Catholic's view of Mary is protestants biggest issue with the Catholic church, so I wanted to shed some light on why they believe what they believe, and practice what they practice, I myself admit I do not ask Saints from Heaven to pray for me, I only ask other Christians here on earth and pray to the Lord Jesus Christ. But I do believe the souls of the saints and other born again believers have already risen to Heaven, they have new bodies in Heaven, with no pain or suffering.

Also the other massive point in the OP, is to love Jesus the way Mary did, Mary was the mother of Jesus, she must have loved Jesus so much as a mother.

It seems to me that the Bible contains many types and shadows of the reality of God and the things of God. Several men in the OT are considered by many to be types of the Messiah to come. Mary, the mother of Jesus, may also be seen in some ways as a type of the Church, which bears and brings into the Light of God new born babes or new converts. There are likely some problems with the type but this was also so with just about any of the men of the OT who were types of the Messiah.

 

[farouk]

I will never ask her to pray for me

@Nancy The Lord Jesus is the one Mediator, as per Paul to Timothy.

 

[Bobby Jo]

@BreadOfLife
Exposing anti-Catholic lies online for 17 years . . .

It seems it would be BETTER to expose Scriptural Truths for 17 years, -- because sometimes people's religious doctrines replace GOD's TRUTH with LIES. So if we stay with the Scriptural Foundation, we remove the "middle-man" who just might have a different agenda than GOD.

... or maybe that's what you're so afraid of ...
Bobby Jo