Mary, Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ

[Marymog]

The way I see this, is that Jesus was assigning responsibility for the care of Mary to John.

John took her to live with him in Ephesus, where she died at age 65 and was buried at the Church of Mary, the church where the Council of Ephesus was held.

Mary didn't seem to be all that important in the early church, and in Jerome's history of "The Lives of the Saints" covering the history of over 200 saints, she wasn't even mentioned.

Justin Martyr and Irenaeous of Lyons “mentioned” Mary and they were BEFORE Jerome.

Historical Mary

 

[Marymog]

Yes, I find the habit of praying to saints or Mary, or your grandmother a disturbing doctrine. They are not our mediator between God and us. Only Jesus is.

There is no doctrine in The Church of “praying to saints or Mary” so you can stop being disturbed.

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Marymog]

Hi Josho
I am a wee bit perplexed.
( therefore I will tag @Angelina and @Heart2Soul ...who are also Staff Members here on the site, so they can slap me down if I am doing wrong and tell me to get back in my box. )

I am asking myself why it is that a staff member , who I thought had accepted that position on here - to be a balance when two members are at loggerheads ...and to help to bring a peaceful atmosphere to the site...

So my question is...Why are you pushing the Mary thing..which I cannot find is either encouraged or taught in the bible at all?
Have you not right here started a thread that very well could bring anger, division and conflict.
BreadOfLife will argue his catholic point , but in all my years here I don't remember seeing him START a catholic thread!

I have noticed over the last month that you have posted on this subject a few times, yet I don't remember you ever making a point of it before.

Anything that draws our eyes away from The Father and His Son, is 'another- gospel'.

We ALL have a subject or a personally held belief, or doctrine...but most of us, if we know it will be controversial we 'choose' to hold it close to our chest and not make an issue of it.

So, I have to say I am surprised to see pushing this point...very nicely, and very politely , but nevertheless you are still pushing it.
I really hope it does not turn into a nasty thread , where people speak strongly rather than polity and risk getting themselves suspended for doing so.

For myself I must say that I am disappointed.

Hi Helen,

I am a wee bit perplexed also! @Josho made it clear that his goal by starting this thread was to "look at the importance of Mary's role in the Bible". I see no problem with a staff member or anyone on this forum starting a conversation (bible study) on what is written about Mary in the bible. I am perplexed why you are against bible study?

Josho also said that he wished to "discuss the Catholic doctrine on Mary". Once again, I see no problem with a staff member or anyone starting a discussion on ANY Protestant or Catholic church doctrine. No where in his OP does he say he supports the doctrine or condemns it. He is merely starting a discussion on it. We discuss various Protestant doctrines on here all the time of which you have engaged in. I am perplexed why you are against discussing "Catholic doctrine" but not against discussing Protestant doctrine?

I am perplexed by your statement; We ALL have a subject or a personally held belief, or doctrine...but most of us, if we know it will be controversial we 'choose' to hold it close to our chest and not make an issue of it.

There are MULTIPLE 'controversial' doctrines on this forum that have NOT been held close to ones chest and have been made an issue of. I am perplexed why you think a staff member is not allowed to start a discussion on 'controversial doctrines' but everyone else can?

Josho did start a thread that very well could bring anger, division and conflict. You fired the first shot!

 

[friend of]

I think Mary is a very special person. Same with Joseph. I wish we knew more about them both.

 

[Enoch111]

Josho also said that he wished to "discuss the Catholic doctrine on Mary".

I'm not sure this was such a good idea. There is a huge divide between how Catholics and Protestants view Mary. But if that is what Josho wants to do, he should present Catholic sources and see how they line up with Scripture.

 

[Marymog]

Hmmm, well I have been thinking of Catholic doctrine on Mary lately and the "hail Mary." In this thread we will look at the importance of Mary's role in the Bible, and the Catholic doctrine on Mary and why do Catholics say hail Mary's, if we read Luke 1:28 in the Bible we find out Angel Gabriel said to Mary Mother of Jesus "Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

A real interesting view point though lately I have seen though from Father Rob Galea, is about loving Jesus the way Mary did, having a close relationship with Jesus the way Mary did, and I think that is quite a wonderful viewpoint, because when we think about it Mary the mother of Christ Jesus would have had such a close relationship with Christ Jesus being the mother of Jesus, it was a mother-son relationship and loving mothers absolutely love and care for their children.

And when we read Luke chapter one we learn that Mary was "thou that art highly favoured" we also learn that Angel Gabriel pretty much said hail Mary. "Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God."

While God is higher than Mary, she still is a very important woman and plays a very important role in the Bible and many protestants push that fact aside.

She was chosen to give birth to Jesus, she was chosen to give birth to the Son of God, who entered this world to fulfill the law, to make the new covenant of "Grace", to be the ultimate sacrifice, so that whoever believes in Him shall not die but live an eternal life. Jesus Christ is Lord God, that walked the earth in human flesh, and He entered the world through Virgin Mary, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:26-31

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

Hi Josho,

Thank you for starting this discussion.

Mary was chosen by God almighty, long before He spoke this world into existence, long before the fall of Adam and Eve, long before she gave birth to Christ, to rise above all of humanity, to be the immaculate vessel through which God would enter our world. She dedicated, not just her womb, but her entire life and all that she was, to the glory of the Father.

Here is a side by side comparison of the "Hail Mary" prayer with Scripture:

“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women…” Luke 1:28

“…Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” Luke 1:42

Holy Mary, Mother of God… Luke 1:43

I don't see why anyone would be against repeating Scripture!!!

Some seem to believe that our eyes are drawn away from Jesus if we think about or talk about or show great honor/respect to the Mother of God. My answer to that perplexing theory is: No Mary. No Jesus. Know Mary. Know Jesus.

The knives are coming out....I hope your ready josho!

God bless...Mary

 

[Marymog]

I think Mary is a very special person. Same with Joseph. I wish we knew more about them both.

For what it's worth:
CHURCH FATHERS: Protoevangelium of James

 

[Stan B]

Yes, I find the habit of praying to saints or Mary, or your grandmother a disturbing doctrine. They are not our mediator between God and us. Only Jesus is.

At the outset, sometimes wonder why God would punish Mary by making her listen to a billion prayers every day, even if she was capable of doing so. That does not sound like my idea of paradise!

The Bible condemns engaging in the detestable practices of the heathen nations who call upon the dead.

“When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. . . one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so. Deut 18:9

God clearly detests those who communicate with the dead. Note that He is not saying He merely hates the sin, but the people who practice such things.

 

[Taken]

John 19:25-27

"Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home."

Hmm thanks for pointing that out.

"And He gives her to us, at the foot of the cross."

He gave her to the disciple as a mother at the foot of the cross. Lol I have never actually noticed that detail in there and have read the NT a number of times through.

I believe Mary was Blessed among women, as it is women who carry and bring forth children.

However I find nothing Scriptural about exalting her by men and women, to the point of preaching she was Naturally Born without sin, Placing Statues of her (supposedly her resemblance) in churches, and men and women bowing down to the Statues (kissing the statues), and yes many praying to Mary, as an intercessory to God.

Anyone with Christ IN them IS favored of God. They have done the works of God AND and established their reasonable service to God, and Jesus Himself accounts them as:

Mark 3:
[35] For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Personally I lean more on Jesus' teaching of A persons relationship with the Lord, rather than the Lords relationship with one woman.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Marymog]

I'm not sure this was such a good idea. There is a huge divide between how Catholics and Protestants view Mary. But if that is what Josho wants to do, he should present Catholic sources and see how they line up with Scripture.

Hi Enoch,

Why do you think that it is not a good idea to discuss Catholic doctrine? We discuss/debate Protestant doctrine on here all day long.... every day.... 365 days a year!!! One thread dedicated to the doctrine of The Church is......???

In your opinion: What is the biggest 'divide' between The Church and Protestant doctrine on Mary?

Curious Mary

 

[Bobby Jo]

... While God is higher than Mary, she still is a very important woman and plays a very important role in the Bible and many protestants push that fact aside. ...

? GOD is higher than Mary?!? -- REALLY?!? Are you sure?

It seems people with agendas take passages out of the FULL CONTEXT to either MAKE or REINFORCE a FALSE DOCTRINE.

But that's human nature ...
Bobby Jo

 

[BreadOfLife]

The way I see this, is that Jesus was assigning responsibility for the care of Mary to John.

John took her to live with him in Ephesus, where she died at age 65 and was buried at the Church of Mary, the church where the Council of Ephesus was held.

Mary didn't seem to be all that important in the early church, and in Jerome's history of "The Lives of the Saints" covering the history of over 200 saints, she wasn't even mentioned.

DOCUMENTATION, please for the remark in RED . . .

Shouldn't be dufficult, right?

 

[Taken]

? GOD is higher than Mary?!? -- REALLY?!? Are you sure?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, I find the habit of praying to saints or Mary, or your grandmother a disturbing doctrine. They are not our mediator between God and us. Only Jesus is.

Soooooo, you NEVER ask anyone to pray for you??
YOU don't pray for anyone??

We are commanded to pray for each other (James 5:16).

 

[Taken]

There is no doctrine in The Church of “praying to saints or Mary” so you can stop being disturbed.

Respectfully, Mary

Doctrine was not mentioned. Habit was mentioned, and the habit of praying TO saints was found a disturbing thing for people to do.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Soooooo, you NEVER ask anyone to pray for you??
YOU don't pray for anyone??
We are commanded to pray for each other (James 5:16).

My wife prays for me; my family prays for me; and my friends pray for me. -- And they're all - ALIVE -, - ON EARTH -, - AS WE SPEAK -.


... logic to some is like Alice in Wonderland ...
Bobby Jo

 

[historyb]

The way I see it, is Catholics ask Mary and some other Saints to pray for us from Heaven.

As you are well aware some of us on these forums believe the saints are already in Heaven, I believe the Saints and Born Again Christians who have passed away here on earth are already in Heaven.

If we look at the 2nd half of the "Hail Mary"

"Holy Mary Mother of God,

pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"

It's a request for Mary Mother of the Lord Jesus to pray for us.

And if I may add it is not just Catholics that ask the Blessed Mother and Saints to pray for us but also other Christians to like the Orthodox, Anglicans, and others. The oldest known Marian prayer is the Sub tuum praesidium which is from the 200's and is in use today in many Churches still. I found this about the foundations of Marian devotion in the Early Church Foundations of Marian Devotion in the Early Church, so devotions and prayers to the Theotokos are quite ancient

 

[Taken]

Soooooo, you NEVER ask anyone to pray for you??
YOU don't pray for anyone??

We are commanded to pray for each other (James 5:16).

Try to stay in context.
Anyone is not in context.
There is a huge difference between speaking to a living person or a dead person.

Do you ask dead persons, whom you call saints, to pray FOR you?

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is where the Hail Mary was taken from, and it is a Catholic site:

"1. Hail Mary, full of Grace Luke 1:28 (Hail, full of Grace) The Angel Gabriel greets Mary with very respectful greeting used for royalty. The text doesn’t say “Mary” after Hail but it is implied. Gabriel then proclaims Mary full of Grace (full of God’s own life and love)
2. The Lord is with You Luke 1:28 (The Lord is with you) This is word for word. The Angel Gabriel said that the Lord is with Mary; she is full of his Grace, his own life. h
3. Blessed are you among Women Luke 1:41 (Blessed are you among women) Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit; she is inspired by the 3rd person of the Blessed Trinity to proclaim that Mary is the most blessed among all women.
4. And Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus Luke 1:42 (and blessed is the fruit of your womb) Elizabeth still inspired by the Holy Spirit proclaims that the fruit of Mary’s womb, the developing Jesus, is blessed. The text doesn’t say “Jesus” after womb, but it is implied, the fruit of her womb is Jesus.
5. Holy Mary, Mother of God Luke 1:43 (And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?) Mary is full of God’s grace; this would make her holy. Mary is the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ who is the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity. Since Jesus is God this makes her the mother of God. She is the mother of the God-Man Jesus, not the mother of the Trinity.
6. Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death James 5:16 (Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects) St. James tells Christians to pray for one another. All the baptized are members of the body of Christ (1Cor 12:12-14), therefore it is right to pray for other members of the body. James goes on to say that the prayers of the righteous have great power. What human (other then Jesus) is more righteous then the Blessed Mother. Though she is in heaven she still hears the prayers of her children on Earth and intercedes for them."

And, even though I know that Christ IS our direct line to the throne of God and He is our only mediator... "...pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death...", they use this scripture to justify asking Mary to pray for them - James 5:16.
The rest of the prayer is scriptural.

I see a big difference between "pray for" and "pray to"...we, Christians are told to pray for one another!

I will honor Mary's name as I think we should, but I would NEVER pray TO her.

You’re right.
Luke 1:28 doesn’t say, “Hail MARY”. It says “Hail, KECHARITOMENE” – which is FAR more significant.

Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle that indicates a PAST even with PERMANENT result. It translates as “Perfectly, completely and enduringly endowed with grace.”

YOU are not in this condition.
I am not in this condition.
Only those in HEAVEN are in this condition. You and I hope on one day be in this condition.

Mary is the ONLY one in ALL of Scripture to be given this title. THAT’S what God did for Mary that makes her special.
Special enough to carry GOD Himself in her womb . . .

As for “Pray” – this word does NOT only mean “worship”.

In fact the definition of “Pray” simply means to ASK. It is a legal, juridical term that is used in police reports and court documents. “Worship” is a SECONDARY definition.

The fact is that YOU pray to people EVERY SINGLE DAY – and they pray to YOU.

Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary defines “Pray” as:

1: ENTREAT, IMPLORE —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea pray be careful
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

YOUR turn . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

My wife prays for me; my family prays for me; and my friends pray for me. -- And they're all - ALIVE -, - ON EARTH -, - AS WE SPEAK -.


... logic to some is like Alice in Wonderland ...
Bobby Jo

Try to stay in context.
Anyone is not in context.
There is a huge difference between speaking to a living person or a dead person.

Do you ask dead persons, whom you call saints, to pray FOR you?

If everybody in Heaven in the presence of almighty God is "dead" - why do YOU want to go there??