WHY IS THE CHURCH GOING OUT BACKWARD?

[Joseph77]

QUOTE="marksman, post: 767781, member: 1136"]The first one I think got upset because I asked them how many people had been saved in the last year amongst all their churches. The answer was three. My reply was "Doesn't that speak for itself."

"You naughty boy. How dare you suggest we are not perfect."

So, why are so many churches stuck in the mud and are controlled by the status quo especially as the NTC saw things like 3,000 getting saved at one meeting?

There must be reasons and answers so let's see what we can come up with. And can I ask that you think about this before adding your thoughts as I would rather not have off the cuff ideas that are shallow?[/QUOTE
=============================
Did you get many , or any, good biblical answers to the op ?

Did you know (how could you?) , after several months asking, posting, questioning, seeking ANYONE who was saved ANYTIME on a forum (any forum) , NOT ONE was found - NOT ONE replied affirmatively, ever.

One only did reply that , when she saw the fighting on that forum (not this one, btw, if it matters),
she went outside the forums, to research for herself , and discovered it was true that the world church was false and could not be trusted at all. (that was where most of the fighting including in-fighting (themselves) was on a dailyi basis) ...

Before she had looked honestly for the truth herself, she had just assumed like many that all the different groups were somehow okay.... (which is maybe the biggest deception of the false gospel on earth)

 

[GodsGrace]

Excellent point GG, and well put! These are not "extra-biblical writings at all yet they are very important to our understanding of things.
xo

Learning church history was important to me.
It even helped me to understand the bible better
because those that came immediately after Christ
and the Apostles were taught by them.

Even we Protestants should be eager to learn about our
history --- some Protestant churches are including this in their
Sunday lessons, or Wed evening lessons.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace Often it means an independent church not belonging to a group.

OK.
A church someone set up...maybe a split from a major denomination....
But if the guy leaves...what happens to the church?
Seems like it depends on that one person that set it up.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good post. I prefer the term "post Biblical" rather than extra-Biblical. There is nothing in the book of Acts that says there would be no more controversies that would require a council to resolve. The Council of Jerusalem was the template for all future councils, and still is today. The Council of Nicae of 325 resolved the Arian crisis. It was a post New Testament Council that gave us the Nicene Creed and defended the divinity of Christ. The Bible contains history, but it is not a history book.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to learn early church history based on the Bible alone. Peter, James,, and John together with all the Apostles and elders reached a decision binging on the whole Church. (Acts 15) That's what we call the Magisterium. This same authority accepted all the books of the Bible at the Council of Rome in 383 AD, declared as divine writings, but further discernment took place before before it was made binding on all Christians in 408 AD. Challenging heretics, i.e. Arius, Nestorius, Apollonius, etc. are not in the book of Acts.

It's important to note that not everything the Early Church Fathers wrote was accepted by the Church, but they present the most accurate description of AUTHENIC beliefs and practices of Christians, and not all of it is recorded in Scripture, such as the method of Baptism. And one must look outside the Bible to discover how the canon of Scripture was arrived.

Agreed on all.

I'm not even Catholic in doctrine, but how many times have I said that the CC preserved for all of us the original teachings...although some were changed. But all comes from the bible, whether we all agree or not, and if it wasn't for the Catholic, universal, church,,,Christianity would not look like it looks today - taking into consideration all the heresy that had to be exterminated.

Many tell me the Early Church Fathers were not inspired. I've always found this amusing since it is THEY that put the bible we read together.

 

[Joseph77]

Many tell me the Early Church Fathers were not inspired. I've always found this amusing since it is THEY that put the bible we read together.

No, they did not. (it is a bit bemusing, perhaps, though painful to learn so many are deceived) ...
Don't be so surprised.
Even the devil appears as a righteous man , messenger, or angel , at times. (faking being good appearance, deceptive, of course)
Keep looking - it is difficult to find, but the Baptists have some sites that reveal the truth historically about the Bible , and it was not based on the works of ecf as billions of people were deceived by, still today.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, they did not. (it is a bit bemusing, perhaps, though painful to learn so many are deceived) ...
Don't be so surprised.
Even the devil appears as a righteous man , messenger, or angel , at times. (faking being good appearance, deceptive, of course)
Keep looking - it is difficult to find, but the Baptists have some sites that reveal the truth historically about the Bible , and it was not based on the works of ecf as billions of people were deceived by, still today.

Well Joseph,,,this is plain and simple history.
Don't know what the Baptists say...
but THEY were not around in the year 400AD....
If you post a link, I will read it.

 

[Josho]

Add that BOL is the evidence of your ignorance, promoting a lie in defence of your truth. Aggressive yes the catholic church murdered millions, that is aggressive christianity, well it isnt christainity at all. So keep at it, Paul thought he was doing a good thing for God murdering those confounded Christians, see you seem proud to do the same, murdering them spiritually as you do. But at least you are consistent in your ignorance as he was.

Mat_15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

The truth offends.

So do you forgive what happened in the past?

No one should dwell on the past, the past is the past, and throughout history there has been problems on both sides, but those who were led by the Holy Spirit and had the fruits of the Holy Spirit during those times didn't get involved in massacring each others denominations.

We can say protestants have been wild in the past too. Wasn't it the protestants who first came to Australia? Not everyone of them were behaving Christian-like when they first arrived. Wasn't it the protestants who first came to USA? We cannot say all off them behaved Christian-like either. The point is even during the barbaric times in history, there were still a few good Christian men and women.

Anyway the past the past. And I forgive what has happened in the past.

Catholics/Christians, are the same thing, we follow Jesus, we believe in Jesus, we worship Jesus, we pray to Jesus, we are brothers and sisters in Christ. I consider true Catholics Christian, Catholics have their title right, because we are meant to be a part of the unified universal Church of Jesus Christ, we as Christians are all meant to be unified members of the body of Christ.

 

[Joseph77]

Well Joseph,,,this is plain and simple history.
Don't know what the Baptists say...
but THEY were not around in the year 400AD....
If you post a link, I will read it.

Deceptive history is what you are familiar with, like most people. So, no, it is not history.
It will surprise you a lot when (or if) you find the truth about this.
If you seek the truth, and do not give up seeking the truth, you will find it. This is what God's Word says, and is true, as He cannot lie.

 

[Josho]

@Truther @mjrhealth

From my understanding you have both came out of Catholic churches, and you may not have had very good experiences from the ones you came out of.

But you both have to understand whether protestant or Catholic, not every leader, not every pastor, not every priest follows the leading of the Holy Spirit, not every leader is lively, I think I can even say not every leader is anointed to lead.

But there are still some good Holy Spirit led anointed Catholic priests around, there are still some good Holy Spirit led anointed Vicars around, there are still some good Holy Spirit led anointed Pastors around.

In today's day and age there are plenty of places where we aren't meant to be. It's not uncommon for someone to live half an hour away or more from a good Spirit-led Bible based Church. And so in saying that both of your experiences at Churches you have attended aren't the same as others, both your experiences at Cathedrals you have attended aren't the same as others.

 

[mjrhealth]

So do you forgive what happened in the past?

No one should dwell on the past, the past is the past, and throughout history there has been problems on both sides, but those who were led by the Holy Spirit and had the fruits of the Holy Spirit during those times didn't get involved in massacring each others denominations.

We can say protestants have been wild in the past too. Wasn't it the protestants who first came to Australia? Not everyone of them were behaving Christian-like when they first arrived. Wasn't it the protestants who first came to USA? We cannot say all off them behaved Christian-like either. The point is even during the barbaric times in history, there were still a few good Christian men and women.

Anyway the past the past. And I forgive what has happened in the past.

Catholics/Christians, are the same thing, we follow Jesus, we believe in Jesus, we worship Jesus, we pray to Jesus, we are brothers and sisters in Christ. I consider true Catholics Christian, Catholics have their title right, because we are meant to be a part of the unified universal Church of Jesus Christ, we as Christians are all meant to be unified members of the body of Christ.

If we where unified members in Christ we would all be in Christ, not perusing after men religion and mens doctrines, and as you can see all about you, Christ is teh last anyone seems to want to Follow.

 

[mjrhealth]

@Truther @mjrhealth

From my understanding you have both came out of Catholic churches, and you may not have had very good experiences from the ones you came out of.

But you both have to understand whether protestant or Catholic, not every leader, not every pastor, not every priest follows the leading of the Holy Spirit, not every leader is lively, I think I can even say not every leader is anointed to lead.

But there are still some good Holy Spirit led anointed Catholic priests around, there are still some good Holy Spirit led anointed Vicars around, there are still some good Holy Spirit led anointed Pastors around.

In today's day and age there are plenty of places where we aren't meant to be. It's not uncommon for someone to live half an hour away or more from a good Spirit-led Bible based Church. And so in saying that both of your experiences at Churches you have attended aren't the same as others, both your experiences at Cathedrals you have attended aren't the same as others.

I came out because, the Holy Spirit called me out, you know this bit.

[MKJV] Revelation of John 18:4
And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues.

Would you remain in if you are His people.

 

[Truther]

@Truther @mjrhealth

From my understanding you have both came out of Catholic churches, and you may not have had very good experiences from the ones you came out of.

But you both have to understand whether protestant or Catholic, not every leader, not every pastor, not every priest follows the leading of the Holy Spirit, not every leader is lively, I think I can even say not every leader is anointed to lead.

But there are still some good Holy Spirit led anointed Catholic priests around, there are still some good Holy Spirit led anointed Vicars around, there are still some good Holy Spirit led anointed Pastors around.

In today's day and age there are plenty of places where we aren't meant to be. It's not uncommon for someone to live half an hour away or more from a good Spirit-led Bible based Church. And so in saying that both of your experiences at Churches you have attended aren't the same as others, both your experiences at Cathedrals you have attended aren't the same as others.

The Spirit of truth is given to lead us to all truth.

The RCC priest does not have the Spirit of truth.

They are 100% unscriptural.

My experience was "revealing" in the RCC, not negative.

The whole process of being a roman Catholic exposed their false concepts to me.

 

[Truther]

If you don't care to take your nose out of the bible,,,,,
and learn some church history, of which you are sorely lacking,,,,
that's fine with me.

But then don't make silly comments like Paul and Peter were in Jerusalem........
at a time which I was NOT REFERENCING.

The reason you did that is because you do not know church history.
If you follow Acts you know very well that the HISTORY of the church
began AFTER Jesus died,,as you correctly stated, that is when the church began.

But church history continues AFTER ACTS...so it will NOT be found inside the N.T.
You must read other sources,,,just as in the same way you learned about the history of the
U.S. for instance.

This is NOT THE SAME as using extra-biblical sources for creating doctrine.

It's a totally different matter.

Nope, i keep my nose in the Bible.

Fake news surrounds us, ancient or modern...
But the Bible alone is not fake news.

 

[GodsGrace]

Deceptive history is what you are familiar with, like most people. So, no, it is not history.
It will surprise you a lot when (or if) you find the truth about this.
If you seek the truth, and do not give up seeking the truth, you will find it. This is what God's Word says, and is true, as He cannot lie.

Help me to find the truth Joseph.
Why won't you list some links?

Basically because there aren't any.
You could like it or not,,,take it or leave it,
but the Catholic Church gathered the bible and
decided which books should be in it.

The Catholic canon was set at the Council of Rome (382),[2] the same Council commissioned Jerome to compile and translate those canonical texts into the Latin Vulgate Bible.

source: Development of the Christian biblical canon - Wikipedia.

 

[Josho]

@Truther

You obviously missed this thread.
Catholic Charismatic Renewal

 

[Truther]

@Truther

You obviously missed this thread.
Catholic Charismatic Renewal

↑
"Also, we don't even know who wrote Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and the Book of Acts as the authors didn't tell us.
If we don't know then how did those books get their authors? Their authorship has been undisputed since the 2nd century."


Whew!

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope, i keep my nose in the Bible.

Fake news surrounds us, ancient or modern...
But the Bible alone is not fake news.

It would be interesting to know what you consider to be fake history....
but since you do NOT know any church history...I won't ask you.

 

[Joseph77]

Basically because there aren't any.

If you deny the truth, as you do here, before even hearing it, what good is that for you ?

 

[Joseph77]

It would be interesting to know what you consider to be fake history....
but since you do NOT know any church history...I won't ask you.

as they noted, fake history is all that which is false, which is taught to you and others worldwide.

 

[Joseph77]

@Truther

You obviously missed this thread.
Catholic Charismatic Renewal

I did not see the thread.
I was in a 'Catholic Charismatic Renewal',
and was asked to lead it.
I did not , as God Directed my steps elsewhere.
However, everyone of them who followed Jesus left the umbrella of catholicism far behind - they renounced it all and did not ever regret it (unless they went back like a dog returning to its own vomit as some did in the NT Record/Scripture),

they rejoiced in freedom in Christ, out from under the power of the enemy forever now.

For those who are interested (whether good or bad), there are several sites started by (saved and unsaved) former catholics for catholics , no matter where they are currently in life. (potentially anyway , God Willing). Escaping the grip of tyranny is welcome to those seeking freedom, and often a great surprise when they find out how many others once were there too, where they are or were.