Works

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Randy Kluth

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here Paul gets to the point with a lot less text:


Co 3:10  According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 
1Co 3:11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 
1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 
1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 
1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 
1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 


simple if it be of God it remains with God in God's Presence, if it be otherwise then it remains with what it is of.

as far as what Paul means by "he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" Paul quotes Moses in another book:

Heb_12:29  For our God is a consuming fire.

Very good. Some Christian works and the works of this world do not have eternal value and do not achieve salvation. I wouldn't say they are worthless to God, but only worthless as far as salvation.

Even producing "wood, hay, and stubble" can have value. The problem is--it is temporary. Salvation is eternal, and we should strive to do the works that last, that get people saved, that encourage fellow believers in their ministries, in doing good that testifies to Christ, and not just do an act of kindness that does not bear any testimony to Christ.
 

DPMartin

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Very good. .

I see, you think Christianity should fit your mold of it? meet your approval and satisfaction. are you molding church people in your image and likeness?

the devil is a believer for sure, he has actually seen God. and your approval is yet to be seen of any value or not.
 

Randy Kluth

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I see, you think Christianity should fit your mold of it? meet your approval and satisfaction. are you molding church people in your image and likeness?

the devil is a believer for sure, he has actually seen God. and your approval is yet to be seen of any value or not.

I never said my "approval" had anything to do with it. God determines what is of eternal value and what is only of temporal value. The world does good, and we can know that. We know that good works, when we see they are truly good, have their virtue from God, people doing, from within, what God is pressing upon their conscience.

But God determines what is of eternal worth. When we obey God in matters of eternal worth, then God will judge those works as such. When we minister in the testimony of God, as the regenerated people of God, our testimony is of eternal worth. When we do good to bring glory to Christ, our works are of eternal worth, including just giving a glass of water to a brother in need.

To show fellow believers love and service is to do works of eternal value. To lead men to Christ is of eternal value if we ourselves are truly Christians--it has been known that men peddle the gospel without full sincerity, and can actually bring others to Christ without receiving full merit from God.

If we are to do things of eternal value, it is not just by being "good," but more, by becoming good ourselves and by then doing what God instructs us to do out of that new nature that God has given us.
 

justbyfaith

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Very good. Some Christian works and the works of this world do not have eternal value and do not achieve salvation. I wouldn't say they are worthless to God, but only worthless as far as salvation.

Even producing "wood, hay, and stubble" can have value. The problem is--it is temporary. Salvation is eternal, and we should strive to do the works that last, that get people saved, that encourage fellow believers in their ministries, in doing good that testifies to Christ, and not just do an act of kindness that does not bear any testimony to Christ.

Even the gold, silver, and precious gems are not = salvation. They are = rewards that we receive for things done after we are saved.

Salvation happens when the foundation of Jesus Christ is firmly laid.
 

FollowHim

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Works. There is a lot of confusion in the Christian World about Works. Paul spoke a lot about how Works did not justify us, that Christ's atonement alone covered our sins. He spoke a lot about how the Jews were no longer under the Law, that the Works of the Law are no longer valid, that Christ's Law alone is valid, which is based on faith in the atonement of Christ.

So did Paul dismiss Works altogether, or was he just dismissing Works under the Law? I believe Paul was just dismissing Works under the Law because he full well knew that the Law had been a valid covenant between God and Israel, and that God had required Works under the Law while that covenant was still in effect.

So what was Paul really saying? He was saying that while the Law was in effect, it was for the purpose of providing life in temporal matters. But it could not bring about eternal life. And so, once Christ had come and provided a final atonement for sins, the sacrifices of the Law ceased to be valid. And Christ's atonement superseded all of the sacrifices of the Law.

This made the Law impotent with respect to bringing even temporal life anymore, since the purpose of that covenant was to be suprseded by a greater covenant, the covenant of Christ. So yes, Paul taught that keeping the Law, and doing the Works of the Law, were bad now that Christ's covenant had superseded the old covenant of Law. But he was never saying that Works, as such, were bad--ony Works under the Law, after that covenant had been superseded.

Works, being valid while the Law was still in effect, are just as valid under the covenant of Christ, because he has Law and he has Works also. They just aren't the same covenant as the covenant of Law. They have to do with our requirement to follow him, to emulate him, to obey his commandment to love the brethren, to love our enemy, to testify to the Gospel of Christ's Kingdom, etc.

Again, Paul would've encouraged Jews to obey the Works of the Law while the Law was still in effect. And he would've acknowledged that those Works, being done in obedience and in faith, did produce temporal benefits, including life, health, and productivity. Paul's only point, therefore, was that Christ had come and superseded the Law, making those Works no longer a matter of obedience, and therefore, worthless. He was not saying that Christian Works were also worthless. On the contrary, Paul argued that following Christ involved all kinds of obedience to God, and his letters recount numerous exhortations to that effect. We should not be confused about the need to do good Works as a Christian!

Under the Law, we were told that Works under that covenant provided temporal benefits, and not eternal benefits. That's because only by the covenant of Christ could we obtain eternal life. And so, we should also know that under the covenant of Christ, we do Works not to obtain eternal life, but rather, to be obedient to God, to obtain His good pleasure. This also has some temporal benefits although we see, like Israel, that we live in the midst of those around us who are disobedient, thus leading us to have hard times. The best of the Prophets of Israel in the OT suffered despite their obedience to the Law. Their temporal benefits from serving the Law faithfully could not prevent them from suffering from the disobedience in the nation in which they lived.

Paul did not argue that the Law was bad for being unable to provide Israel with eternal life. Indeed its purpose was to show that until Christ came, the Law could only show man's lack of an eternal atonement. There is confusion, however, when we see Jesus emphasize that in Israel's time of backsliding, what they did under the Law was *false adherence* to the Law, doing the things required by the Law externally, but not doing the things internally required by the Law. God had asked them to have a "new heart," and not just do a few good Works.

Paul was not saying that by the Pharisees' example nobody could do good Works under the Law. On the contrary, Jesus condemned them for not doing Works under the Law *properly.*

And so, we can be sure that Paul did not say Works are out of reach for Christians. On the contrary, he was encouraging us to do true Christian Works. He was only telling Jews to move beyond the Works of the Law to the Works of Christ. And he was arguing that the Works of the Law, though good in their time, could never achieve eternal life, but only temporal benefits, while they awaited final redemption. Paul was arguing that they had to move on to Christ from the Law, since the Law was given in preparation for him, and always had meant to bring about an atonement that was eternal.

The Jews had to leave the Works of the Law because it had come time to move on, once Christ had come. Paul never said that Works were bad, and not even bad under the Law. They were only bad after Christ had come, because then the old Covenant had become passe, and observance of that Law after Christ had come was a form of disobedience, since the purpose of the Law had been to move on to Christ, the eternal atonement--the Works that last forever.

Let me be clear: Works are what pleases God and what God's purpose has always been for Man, to live up to the image of God for which we were created. Once we were defiled with a sin nature, our Works--no matter how good--could not redeem us, and give us eternal life. The Law was given to demonstrate that. It called upon Israel to obey, to be good, to do good works, for which they could be deemed righteous, and rewarded in the present world.

But righteousness, to achieve eternal life, could only come by Christ, who gave us the ability to perform the Works of faith, achieving salvation by the connection of his righteousness to his eternal atonement. Now we can do Works that are part of our eternal inheritance, and our Works, when they are truly of faith, will last forever.

And I'm confident that Christ's eternal atonement, covers those who had, under the Law, done Works through faith. Paul only argued that apart from Christ's eternal atonement, the Works of the Law, even done through faith, could not find eternal salvation. But inasmuch as they were good Works done in hope of eternal atonement, they could achieve, by faith, what they had hoped for.

Paul's argument was only that if they knew the Law could not achieve eternal atonement, why would they not move on from the Law to Christ once they knew Christ was the source of that eternal atonement? Without Christ, the Works of the Law were inadequate! They could not save! The Works of the Law were designed to *look forward to Christ,* and to move on from the Law to him when he came.
The difference is emotional. The law shows what love is worked out, where we desire the best for all, founded on our love of God, who is love itself. Love despite betrayal is lifes and the eternal contradiction. In the world we know love is fake, power and domination rule, but in Gods Kingdom service and grace matter where need and meeting it rise highest of all despite cost.

Job was righteous because he loved despite the world, but the argument was it was only because of blessing. Job called the testing unjust, as if blessing always followed righteousness. He repented because this was based on his understanding, and who was he to question God.

Works matter because they show the heart, but cleansing and healing of our hearts must happen before it can begin. As Paul says we are slaves to the passions of this world until we are set free to Christ.

If one boasts in what one is this is the worlds way. There is no greater thing than to praise Jesus and give Him the glory for His work in our lives. God bless you
 
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FollowHim

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Proof of sinners justifying sin.
To deny sin is to be a hypocrite, to know God loves despite sin is justification.

There is a missing 3rd element, the Holy Spirit is working love through every aspect of the elects life. If one condemns a loving walk one is not in the Kingdom for no elect child of God condemns themselves. Only reprobates do not understand the walk of sanctification, cleansing, the calling to life and God Himself. God bless you
 

Randy Kluth

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The difference is emotional. The law shows what love is worked out, where we desire the best for all, founded on our love of God, who is love itself. Love despite betrayal is lifes and the eternal contradiction. In the world we know love is fake, power and domination rule, but in Gods Kingdom service and grace matter where need and meeting it rise highest of all despite cost.

Job was righteous because he loved despite the world, but the argument was it was only because of blessing. Job called the testing unjust, as if blessing always followed righteousness. He repented because this was based on his understanding, and who was he to question God.

Works matter because they show the heart, but cleansing and healing of our hearts must happen before it can begin. As Paul says we are slaves to the passions of this world until we are set free to Christ.

If one boasts in what one is this is the worlds way. There is no greater thing than to praise Jesus and give Him the glory for His work in our lives. God bless you

My point about Works is not to discourage Salvation, but to actually enhance the ministry of Salvation. When we depreciate Works in the creation of Man, we lose men and they cease listening to our message, because it's false. Unsaved men can in fact do good works. And saying works only begin with salvation is false.

What we are promoting is not Works, but a Good Nature that by its very nature does good works, and does them consistently. We are not promoting perfection, but we are promoting a New Nature that naturally does good.

We need to get away from the need to try to win people to salvation by condemning them as horrible people. That isn't the formula. The formula is that all have sinned, since even the best nations have become despicable. We are all subject to the sin nature, and need a recovery process.

That includes receiving a New Good Nature, delivered only by Christ. It only comes by embracing his atonement for sin, which requires that we accept his righteousness. So when we accept him, we receive his gift of a New Nature, which naturally submits to him as our Lord and as the source of our spirituality and righteousness.
 

Joseph77

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Yes, it says it(water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ) is for the remission of sins.

I would say it is the most important doctrine in the entire Bible, lest Jesus Christ died in vain.
I don't know if it is the most important doctrine in the entire Bible,
as someone who trusts Jesus has LIFE, and whoever trusts not Jesus has not LIFE.

Trusting the Heavenly Father to accomplish our salvation in this life, and in the life to come, vs

trusting man's religions or teachings or doctrines without even knowing Jesus.... important life/death/forever differences.
 

justbyfaith

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Unsaved men can in fact do good works.

Yes, they can; however, all of those works would be tainted by sin, and would therefore be as filthy rags before the Lord.

And saying works only begin with salvation is false.

I would say that any works that might be counted as gold, sliver, or precious gems, only begin with salvation.

We need to get away from the need to try to win people to salvation by condemning them as horrible people. That isn't the formula.

People must understand that they are sinner in need of a Saviour before they will accept a Saviour. People must understand that they are sick before they will receive any medicine as a remedy for their sickness.

'nuff said!

(I know, de ja vu, huh?)
 
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Truther

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I don't know if it is the most important doctrine in the entire Bible,
as someone who trusts Jesus has LIFE, and whoever trusts not Jesus has not LIFE.

Trusting the Heavenly Father to accomplish our salvation in this life, and in the life to come, vs

trusting man's religions or teachings or doctrines without even knowing Jesus.... important life/death/forever differences.
The entire Bible is about the lamb of God.

Jesus is likened to a lamb only for slaughter.

To get the slaughter of Jesus to take away one's sins is to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins per Acts 2:38.

This makes Acts 2:38 the most important verse in the Bible, and the most important doctrine.

In this life, it's all about getting our sins(guilt) remitted.
 

Randy Kluth

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Yes, they can; however, all of those works would be tainted by sin, and would therefore be as filthy rags before the Lord.

We are much closer now in our beliefs. Flawed works need remedying, I agree. What we choose to call them is a matter of how we interpret Isaiah's reference. My only concern is that when we try to bring the Gospel to others, we do so in a respectful way, recognizing the good they do, and then exposing their need for salvation beyond this.

I would say that any works that might be counted as gold, sliver, or precious gems, only begin with salvation.

I'm sure there are a variety of views on this. I see the valuables as works we do in Christ. They have lasting value, and accomplish things that are of value to God. They are not just good works--they are works that for God have eternal value. God, I believe, values good works for their own sake, just because He always is interested in doing good to others. But God's highest interest is in things that accomplish good that lasts forever, such as bringing others into the Kingdom.

People must understand that they are sinner in need of a Saviour before they will accept a Saviour. People must understand that they are sick before they will receive any medicine as a remedy for their sickness.

However, if you insult the sick, they may not want your medicine. Go into the sick with a compassionate heart and a loving spirit, and they may receive your medicine. Don't go in trouncing them as ugly sinners and despicable wretches--they won't understand. But if while you declare God's holiness they get a sense of their need you can offer them the New Nature that Christ died to give them.
 

justbyfaith

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I am considering that the Lord is ministering to me that I need to esteem others better than myself, and so will not comment any further.

He has ministered this to me recently and so I apologize for judging you before, @Randy Kluth.
 

Randy Kluth

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I am considering that the Lord is ministering to me that I need to esteem others better than myself, and so will not comment any further.

He has ministered this to me recently and so I apologize for judging you before, @Randy Kluth.

That was kind of you--a Christian fruit. Don't think I have any interest at all in highlighting your errors. I have many errors myself, and I don't want them high-lighted either.

Right or wrong, we set a good example when we are self-correcting. Many refuse to lay their positions out there for God to correct over time. We *all* need to be corrected--perhaps every day!

The Scriptures say we should judge ourselves so that we will not have to be corrected by others. But sometimes, those who correct us have the right heart, and it is less painful. I try to be open to friends and enemies alike--I really do want to be corrected all the time. I just don't want it *highlighted!* :)
 

justbyfaith

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Amen, @Randy Kluth.

Sometimes it can be a sin to point out other people's errors....it borders on the realm of accusation and taking on the nature and employment of the accuser.

I would suggest spending more time in God's word than you do posting on the forums...it may benefit you as a safeguard for you so that the Holy Spirit might correct you before you post something that might be in error.
 

Randy Kluth

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Amen, @Randy Kluth.

Sometimes it can be a sin to point out other people's errors....it borders on the realm of accusation and taking on the nature and employment of the accuser.

I would suggest spending more time in God's word than you do posting on the forums...it may benefit you as a safeguard for you so that the Holy Spirit might correct you before you post something that might be in error.

I've been posting for approx. 20 years. I've been reading my Bible longer than I can remember. It's time now to share my long experience in the Word of God with others. As much as I may have to give, I'm still learning myself. Furthermore, it's fun to share with brothers and sisters, particularly if they are open, as I am.
 

justbyfaith

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Concerning the righteousness of Cornelius.

It is very probable that Cornelius is the Centurion that encountered Jesus in Matthew 8:5-13; and therefore his righteousness was the righteousness of faith. And I wouldn't doubt that this is the case, as this conclusion is consistent with what scripture says in light of your presuppositions.

Furthermore, Romans 3:12 makes it clear that there is no one who does good apart from salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.