The "Fall" in Genesis (what does the text of Scripture say?)

[John Caldwell]

Genesis 2:16-17 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."


Notice that God DOES NOT tell Adam IF you eat from it you will surely die. God commands Adam not to eat of the fruit and tells him that in the day he eats of it he will surely die.

Notice that God does not tell Adam that he will “die on the day he eats of the fruit” but that in the day he eats of it he will die, or that death will be a certainty (מוּת‎ מוּת or transliterated muth muth, die die). ‎ From the point of the command to Adam’s sin death was in the balance, hanging out just beyond the frame. Once Adam disobeys death will enter the world (at least the world of man).

Genesis 3:17-19 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."


Adam ate of the fruit.

What was the consequences of Adam’s disobedience? 1. The ground was cursed and Adam would have to work to eat of it. 2. Adam would return to the dust from which he was taken (Adam would die and his body would decay).

What change(s) happened to Adam?

Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—

Adam became like God knowing good and evil.

What did God do because of this change?


Genesis 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

Adam was sent out of the Garden and back to the ground from which Adam was made (remember, Adam was not created in the Garden but outside of the Garden and then placed in it).

 

[DPMartin]

Genesis 2:16-17 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."


Notice that God DOES NOT tell Adam IF you eat from it you will surely die. God commands Adam not to eat of the fruit and tells him that in the day he eats of it he will surely die.

Notice that God does not tell Adam that he will “die on the day he eats of the fruit” but that in the day he eats of it he will die, or that death will be a certainty (מוּת‎ מוּת or transliterated muth muth, die die). ‎ From the point of the command to Adam’s sin death was in the balance, hanging out just beyond the frame. Once Adam disobeys death will enter the world (at least the world of man).

Genesis 3:17-19 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."


Adam ate of the fruit.

What was the consequences of Adam’s disobedience? 1. The ground was cursed and Adam would have to work to eat of it. 2. Adam would return to the dust from which he was taken (Adam would die and his body would decay).

What change(s) happened to Adam?

Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—

Adam became like God knowing good and evil.

What did God do because of this change?


Genesis 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

Adam was sent out of the Garden and back to the ground from which Adam was made (remember, Adam was not created in the Garden but outside of the Garden and then placed in it).

that's the text alright, but what's the point here.

 

[John Caldwell]

that's the text alright, but what's the point here.

No point. Just part of a study. As I get older I forget where I put things. If it is here I can find it.

 

[Jay Ross]

No point. Just part of a study. As I get older I forget where I put things. If it is here I can find it.

In 2:17 God is introducing the concept of the dangers of the "Second Death." Originally in Genesis, even the Heathens understood that the second death was a reality for them. Today within the Christian understanding, because of the so called "technical translations" used in our English translations the second death has become hidden from us and so the consequences are not as in our face as it was in Genesis with two groups of people Abraham interacted with around 24 years apart.

Shalom

 

[John Caldwell]

I disagree. The text does not lend itself to a "spiritual death" (especially when Chapter 3 is considered).

Do you know the Hebrew concept of a spiritual death in Genesis?

 

[Enoch111]

Notice that God does not tell Adam that he will “die on the day he eats of the fruit” but that in the day he eats of it he will die, or that death will be a certainty...

There's no need to split hairs regarding "on the day" or "in the day". And as a matter of fact it is "in the day" [בְּי֛וֹם (bə-yō-wm)].

But you are trying to avoid the plain meaning of that by interpreting it as "death will be a certainty". While that meaning is included, what Christians need to see here is that BOTH physical and spiritual deaths were included in God's warning.

Spiritual death is the separation of the soul and spirit from God, and on the day that Adam and Eve disobeyed God they were SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from God. The proof of this is also found in this chapter:

SHAME: And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. (v 7)

GUILT AND FEAR OF CONSEQUENCES:
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. (vv 8-10)

Since then physical death is the certainty for all human beings. But spiritual death (eternal separation from God) is only a certainty for those who reject Christ and fail to obey the Gospel. Eternal Hell (the Lake of Fire) is a reality, and that is really what should concern those who read about the Fall.

 

[Jay Ross]

I disagree. The text does not lend itself to a "spiritual death" (especially when Chapter 3 is considered).

Do you know the Hebrew concept of a spiritual death in Genesis?

John, I made no reference to a "spiritual death" as you have suggested. But I agree with you that many commentators try to introduce the idea of a spiritual death because they cannot understand why Adam and Eve both did not die physically when they ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, as they accept the "Traditional" understanding of "you shall surely die." Because Adam and Eve did not die an immediate physical death when they sinned, people attempt to explain it as "they died a spiritual death." But mankind did not lose the spiritual aspect of their personhood because of the Fall.

The concept of "dying the second death" has been there since the beginning of creation, just as the abyss/Bottomless Pit/Hades has existed since day one of Creation. In Revelation 20:14 we are told that at the time of the GWTR judgement, that the Hades, i.e. the Abyss, and the dying of the second death because of sin, both will be done away with in the lake of Fire. Also in Revelation 22:4 we are again told that the "second death" has been done away including the Abyss which was part of the former things.

Now physical death was always part of God's plan for mankind, but because of the fall, the second death entered the world and became the destiny for every person unless they repented of their sins.

In 2:17 God was telling Adam that if he sinned that some 7,000 plus years into the future from that time, the second death would be the outcome for every person who sinned and did not repent of his sins.

In Genesis 3 Satan denied the outcome of the second death for sinning against God, but in Revelation 20:10 we are told that the devil, i.e. Satan suffered the consequences of his rebellion against God and was cast into the Lake of Fire.

Since sin will be no more after the GWTR judgement, the second death and Hades will no longer be required. That is why they are both put into the Lake of fire.

Shalom

 

[Base12]

In 2:17 God is introducing the concept of the dangers of the "Second Death."

I'm impressed. I had to do a lot of research to discover this Truth. It's a shame the Church hides this from everyone.

On a similar note...

I believe the Cherubim and Flaming Sword are a foreshadowing of the Lake of Fire. Adam and Eve were forced to 'pass through the fire' which is reflected in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom...

Leviticus 18:21
"And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD"

Sound too far out?

Check this out...

Isaiah 29:2 (New International Version)
"Yet I will besiege Ariel; she will mourn and lament, she will be to me like an altar hearth"

Ariel means 'Lioness of God' or even 'Altar Hearth of God'. In other words, Ariel is the name for Jerusalem when acting as the Lake of Fire.

Some even connect the word Ariel to the Underworld...

Ariel

Note that the Hearth is also called Tophet...

Isaiah 30:33
"For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it"

Ariel, considered an Archangel by many, is sometimes referred to as Uriel...

Ariel (angel) - Wikipedia

And guess who Uriel is?

Uriel is the one who holds the Flaming Sword in Genesis!

"According to the Bible, a cherub (or, in some traditions, either the archangel Uriel or Camael) with a flaming sword was placed by God at the gates of Paradise after Adam and Eve were banished from it"

Flaming sword (mythology) - Wikipedia

Thus Adam and Eve had to 'pass through the fire' of Uriel, the Altar Hearth of God.

 

[Base12]

What change(s) happened to Adam?

You folks should really, and I mean REALLY meditate on the above. Quit dumbing down the Word of God in order to fit some nursery rhyme version of Genesis.

I'll get to the point...

In order for Adam and Eve to receive their punishment in the most physical sense possible, a completely new Physiology had to be created for them to inhabit.

God didn't create them with corrupt bodies to begin with. The Forbidden Fruit did that.

In other words...

Whatever form of body Adam and his Wife existed in before the fall, DIED. God had to re-create NEW bodies for them in accordance with the Law.

Thus Adam and Ishshah DIED a Physical Death after eating the Fruit, just as God promised. It is then implied that God had to then resurrect Adam and Ishshah. Thus, their 'eyes were opened'.

What happens after Resurrection Day? JUDGEMENT!

Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"

Now here is where Critical Thinking comes in. I know you folks can do this. Come on now. THINK.

In order to go from Cloning via Dust and Ribs, Children will now have to be made via intercourse. That's a HUGE change in Physiology and Biology right down to the DNA level.

Again, Adam and Ishshah were given completely different bodies to inhabit. Thus, the Second Death is more than folks realize.

And now that Adam's Wife was re-created, Adam had to re-name Her again to reflect the fact that Children are made differently...

Genesis 3:20
"And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living"

New body, new name.

 

[Base12]

Ariel means 'Lioness of God' or even 'Altar Hearth of God'. In other words, Ariel is the name for Jerusalem when acting as the Lake of Fire.

One more thing...

Since Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon, we can even see a connection to Hathor (the Golden Calf), who sometimes manifests as the Lioness Goddess Sekhemet.

Many connect Ariel to Sekhmet...

And what does Sekhmet do? She gets drunk on blood!!! Lol...

Sekhmet's blood-lust was not quelled at the end of battle and led to her destroying almost all of humanity. To stop her Ra poured out beer dyed with red ochre or hematite so that it resembled blood. Mistaking the beer for blood, she became so drunk that she gave up the slaughter and returned peacefully to Ra.

Sekhmet - Wikipedia

Revelation 17:6
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration"

 

[DPMartin]

I disagree. The text does not lend itself to a "spiritual death" (especially when Chapter 3 is considered).

Do you know the Hebrew concept of a spiritual death in Genesis?

doesn't matter what Hebrews or anyone else's concept is, if God says you die then they did but yet they remained in the flesh. so what did they die from? when Jesus restored life to the dead doing miracles, then those people still existed but to the world they were dead. they were not perceived or heard or seen by those in the world. when A&E died they were not perceived in Heaven. therefore dead to Heaven but still perceived in the world. the devil isn't perceived in the Light therefore dead to the Light but can be perceived in darkness.

 

[Joseph77]

so what did they die from?

... boredom ? ....


;(

 

[John Caldwell]

doesn't matter what Hebrews or anyone else's concept is, if God says you die then they did but yet they remained in the flesh. so what did they die from? when Jesus restored life to the dead doing miracles, then those people still existed but to the world they were dead. they were not perceived or heard or seen by those in the world. when A&E died they were not perceived in Heaven. therefore dead to Heaven but still perceived in the world. the devil isn't perceived in the Light therefore dead to the Light but can be perceived in darkness.

But that is not true. God did not tell Adam that he would die and Adam did not die. God told Adam that on the day he ate of the fruit death would be certain (on the day you eat of the fruit you will surely die).

It is only true if you rearrange the words and ignore the Hebrew.

 

[John Caldwell]

John, I made no reference to a "spiritual death" as you have suggested. But I agree with you that many commentators try to introduce the idea of a spiritual death because they cannot understand why Adam and Eve both did not die physically when they ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, as they accept the "Traditional" understanding of "you shall surely die." Because Adam and Eve did not die an immediate physical death when they sinned, people attempt to explain it as "they died a spiritual death." But mankind did not lose the spiritual aspect of their personhood because of the Fall.

The concept of "dying the second death" has been there since the beginning of creation, just as the abyss/Bottomless Pit/Hades has existed since day one of Creation. In Revelation 20:14 we are told that at the time of the GWTR judgement, that the Hades, i.e. the Abyss, and the dying of the second death because of sin, both will be done away with in the lake of Fire. Also in Revelation 22:4 we are again told that the "second death" has been done away including the Abyss which was part of the former things.

Now physical death was always part of God's plan for mankind, but because of the fall, the second death entered the world and became the destiny for every person unless they repented of their sins.

In 2:17 God was telling Adam that if he sinned that some 7,000 plus years into the future from that time, the second death would be the outcome for every person who sinned and did not repent of his sins.

In Genesis 3 Satan denied the outcome of the second death for sinning against God, but in Revelation 20:10 we are told that the devil, i.e. Satan suffered the consequences of his rebellion against God and was cast into the Lake of Fire.

Since sin will be no more after the GWTR judgement, the second death and Hades will no longer be required. That is why they are both put into the Lake of fire.

Shalom

That is an interesting concept (one I had not considered). I do disagree but that is because I see physical death as the consequence of Adam's sin and the "second death" a consequence of the Cross.

 

[icxn]

Genesis 3:17-19 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

When I read the word ground my mind thinks first of the human nature which was made out of the ground, also (or similarly) of the human heart (Matthew 13:19) and then of the visible type. Likewise, when I read thorns and thistles my mind pictures first of earthly cares and the passions of the flesh (Matthew 13:22, Mark 4:18-19, Luke 8:14). Plants of the field are likewise the spiritual meditations of the attributes of God (Romans 1:20, Psalms 19:1-2) reflected in Creation that nourish the soul – without excluding the visible ones for the nourishment of the body. When I read of bread, my mind immediately thinks of Christ (John 6:35) the true bread that strengthens the heart of man (Psalms 104:15). To eat this bread we need to sow His words in our heart, water them with the sweat of our study and make sure cares and fleshly passions don’t choke them until they grow into virtuous actions (wheat), the main ingredient of the heavenly bread.

The same can be said about dying. It is both the physical death of the body, which begun its countdown towards corruption immediately after the fall and the ever increasing distancing of our soul from God, which constitutes spiritual death and is rooted in sin and ignorance - not a consequence of the Cross (Matthew 8:22).

 

[Joseph77]

Part of or consequences of the fall ? New age posts ?

 

[icxn]

Part of or consequences of the fall ?

Part of the fall is the tragedy that our intellect cannot longer (easily) perceive things beyond our bodily senses... as is evident from your post.

Quote from a 7th century theological text (not exactly new age):

Since man came into being composed of an intelligent soul and a sentient body, one (spiritual) interpretation could be that the tree of life is the soul's intellect, which is the seat of wisdom. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil would then be the body's power of sensation, which is clearly the seat of mindless impulses. Man received the divine commandment not to involve himself actively and experientially with these impulses; but he did not keep the commandment.

Both trees in Scripture symbolize the intellect and the senses. Thus the intellect has the power to discriminate between the spiritual and the sensible, between the eternal and the transitory. Or rather, as the soul's discriminatory power, the intellect persuades the soul to cleave to the first and to transcend the second. The senses have the power to discriminate between pleasure and pain in the body. Or rather, as a power existing in a body endowed with soul and sense perception, they persuade the body to embrace pleasure and reject pain.

If a man exercises only sensory discrimination between pain and pleasure in the body, thus transgressing the divine commandment, he eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that is to say, he succumbs to the mindless impulses that pertain to the senses; for he possesses only the body's power of discrimination, which makes him embrace pleasure as something good and avoid pain as something evil. But if he exercises only that discrimination which distinguishes between the eternal and the transitory, and so keeps the divine commandment, he eats from the tree of life, that is to say, from the wisdom that appertains to his intellect; for he exercises only the power of discrimination associated with the soul, which makes him cleave to the glory of what is eternal as something good, and avoid the corruption of what is transitory as something evil.

It is the devil's practice maliciously to confound the forms and shapes of sensible things with our conceptual images of them. Through these forms and shapes are generated passions for the outward aspects of visible things; and our intellectual energy, being halted at the level of what pertains to sense perception, cannot raise itself to the realm of intelligible realities. In this way the devil despoils the soul and drags it down into the turmoil of the passions.​

 

[Joseph77]

More new age ? Certainly not in line with any nor all Scripture, at all.

 

[Jay Ross]

More new age ? Certainly not in line with any nor all Scripture, at all.

Joseph, you are making an easy put down, without providing the proof necessary to justify the claim. As such you are not furthering the conversation but you are a hinderance to the conversation with people ignoring what may well be true because of the lack of substance in your post.

 

[Joseph77]

Joseph, you are making an easy put down, without providing the proof necessary to justify the claim. As such you are not furthering the conversation but you are a hinderance to the conversation with people ignoring what may well be true because of the lack of substance in your post.

I do not see most of your posts, but since this one came up,
why don't you try (as if it is possible) to show that one , whether new ager or other false teachings,
the errors of his thinking in his posts (several times)
and see if you can make any headway your way.....