The "Fall" in Genesis (what does the text of Scripture say?)

[Joseph77]

If you don't think about what I said, how can you understand it?

If I said Jesus is blue-skinned... would you think about that or simply know it was false.

What you posted was false, so why think about it ?

 

[Joseph77]

The fact that Adam sinned, revealed him to be a sinner. To suggest that sin was not in Adam is to say that Adam had no reason or desire or wish to sin; and the conclusion is that God was unjust to punish Adam for something that wasn't his fault.

see again? all false.

Whoever taught you, is not to be trusted at all. (whether school, church, or whatever - they are not to be trusted in anything they taught you)

 

[Timtofly]

The fact that Adam sinned, revealed him to be a sinner. To suggest that sin was not in Adam is to say that Adam had no reason or desire or wish to sin; and the conclusion is that God was unjust to punish Adam for something that wasn't his fault.

God promised Adam what would happen. God did exactly what He promised when Adam disobeyed God. The only thing Adam had to do was nothing.

There was no sin in Adam, because there was no need to rebel against doing something. Adam did not question God. It was Satan who questioned God. Then Eve started to question God. Saying that Adam was thinking about it is mere speculation.

Once you are a parent, you quickly figure out that telling your child not to do something is a mistake. Is it their fault you placed something in front of them and then told them not to do what you just placed in front of them? Now if God told Adam to go out and eat 3 of this and 3 of that, and Adam one day decided to just eat 3 of one and only 2 of the other just to experiment, that is a willful disobedience. Adam did not have to do anything. We can only speculate that Adam even saw where Eve picked the fruit. All we know is that Adam was not supposed to go up and willfully take a fruit and eat of it. The point is not that Adam even did it willfully, because the Bible does not say. In fact, it could be speculated that Eve could eat all she wanted, without consequences. We are not told. The only fact we know is that God did what God promised God would do. It did not matter if Adam, Eve, or Satan were guilty or not. Adam disobeyed God, and hardly wilfully. The Bible never said it was wilful.

"To Adam he said, “Because you listened to what your wife said and ate from the tree"

How can listening to one's wife be a sin???

 

[CadyandZoe]

see again? all false.

Whoever taught you, is not to be trusted at all. (whether school, church, or whatever - they are not to be trusted in anything they taught you)

Did I see a counter argument there?

 

[CadyandZoe]

God promised Adam what would happen. God did exactly what He promised when Adam disobeyed God. The only thing Adam had to do was nothing.

There was no sin in Adam, because there was no need to rebel against doing something. Adam did not question God. It was Satan who questioned God. Then Eve started to question God. Saying that Adam was thinking about it is mere speculation.

Once you are a parent, you quickly figure out that telling your child not to do something is a mistake. Is it their fault you placed something in front of them and then told them not to do what you just placed in front of them? Now if God told Adam to go out and eat 3 of this and 3 of that, and Adam one day decided to just eat 3 of one and only 2 of the other just to experiment, that is a willful disobedience. Adam did not have to do anything. We can only speculate that Adam even saw where Eve picked the fruit. All we know is that Adam was not supposed to go up and willfully take a fruit and eat of it. The point is not that Adam even did it willfully, because the Bible does not say. In fact, it could be speculated that Eve could eat all she wanted, without consequences. We are not told. The only fact we know is that God did what God promised God would do. It did not matter if Adam, Eve, or Satan were guilty or not. Adam disobeyed God, and hardly wilfully. The Bible never said it was wilful.

"To Adam he said, “Because you listened to what your wife said and ate from the tree"

How can listening to one's wife be a sin???

God gave Adam one command. Do not eat from the tree. His decision whether or not to eat from the tree indicates something about Adam. He ate from the tree and he was punished. The fact that God punished him presupposes that Adam was responsible for his actions. Responsibility is predicated on motive.

Freedom of the will is predicated on intent. We rightfully assume, since Adam was punished, that Adam's action was purposeful, and a conscious decision that revealed his values, desires, outlook and etc. His evil act revealed evil values and evil desires, which come from within Adam.

 

[Timtofly]

God gave Adam one command. Do not eat from the tree. His decision whether or not to eat from the tree indicates something about Adam. He ate from the tree and he was punished. The fact that God punished him presupposes that Adam was responsible for his actions. Responsibility is predicated on motive.

Freedom of the will is predicated on intent. We rightfully assume, since Adam was punished, that Adam's action was purposeful, and a conscious decision that revealed his values, desires, outlook and etc. His evil act revealed evil values and evil desires, which come from within Adam.

I ask again he wanted to do evil, with an evil intent, all to listen to his wife? No longer is it just a sin to listen, it is now an evil intent and Adam was sure it was evil to listen to his wife?

Punishment is not a presupposition of guilt. Should every one spend a month in jail on presupposition, they will brake the law?

The only reason God punished Adam, was because God promised to punish Adam. It was not a presupposition on God's part. God already knew when Adam would disobey. God even already knew how Satan and Eve would fit into the act. No presupposing by God. We can make all sorts of speculations about the event. Just because they are logical, does not make them right.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I ask again he wanted to do evil, with an evil intent, all to listen to his wife? No longer is it just a sin to listen, it is now an evil intent and Adam was sure it was evil to listen to his wife?

I'm sorry. I thought everyone understood that Adam ate from the tree also.

Punishment is not a presupposition of guilt. Should every one spend a month in jail on presupposition, they will brake the law?

I'm sorry if I was unclear. When I say that punishment presupposes guilt, I not saying that punishment is meted out according to presumed guilt. What I mean to say is that guilt is the precondition of punishment. Essentially I'm saying that since God would not punish Adam for no reason, then Adam must have done something to deserve punishment.

If we grant this to be the case, then it follows that Adam's evil act is the manifestation of his evil motives, and desires, which are antecedent to his act. The antecedents of evil actions are evil motives.

 

[Joseph77]

If we grant this to be the case, then it follows that Adam's evil act is the manifestation of his evil motives, and desires, which are antecedent to his act. The antecedents of evil actions are evil motives.

Ah , it (the false premise, or reason ) comes out now (or again).

This false teaching from some schools is (appears to be) the reason for the sin of believing there was any sin in Adam before he sinned. (as if in his nature)

 

[Timtofly]

If we grant this to be the case, then it follows that Adam's evil act is the manifestation of his evil motives, and desires, which are antecedent to his act. The antecedents of evil actions are evil motives.

Then read what the Bible says. You are adding to God's Word. Disobedience was an act. Adam had no evil motive, nor an antecedent in his life to show any evil intent. Adam was perfect without sin. So holding him to a sinful nature, is a false teaching. It is only after Adam disobeyed God, that sin entered reality. Then Adam was given a sin nature, that was passed down to every descendant.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Then read what the Bible says. You are adding to God's Word. Disobedience was an act. Adam had no evil motive, nor an antecedent in his life to show any evil intent. Adam was perfect without sin. So holding him to a sinful nature, is a false teaching. It is only after Adam disobeyed God, that sin entered reality. Then Adam was given a sin nature, that was passed down to every descendant.

I think Adam's disobedience, which is wrong, indicates wrong intent. How then can you say that Adam was perfect without sin? If Adam was perfect without sin, he would be just the same as Jesus Christ, who was also perfect and without sin.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ah , it (the false premise, or reason ) comes out now (or again).

This false teaching from some schools is (appears to be) the reason for the sin of believing there was any sin in Adam before he sinned. (as if in his nature)

What comes out is disagreement without reasons to back them up. Doesn't this get even a little bit old after awhile?

 

[Joseph77]

What comes out is disagreement without reasons to back them up. Doesn't this get even a little bit old after awhile?

The "disagreement" as you call it, was called heresy centuries ago, and has been brought up at times since then, even "believed" after false teachers get away with it.

i.e. there's no reason and no argument that can make it not wrong - whoever taught you the heresy , I would not ever trust them.

The heresy is not "isolated", as if by itself. No. Other false teachings are associated with it, the more that gets revealed, the more that gets exposed in the Light of Scripture and Jesus, the deeper it is seen (like a root of error growing into many errors) ....

THe many groups with so many errors are everywhere, in most cities, countries, and all over the internet, including on this forum. Only a few , if any, ever repent.

 

[Timtofly]

I think Adam's disobedience, which is wrong, indicates wrong intent. How then can you say that Adam was perfect without sin? If Adam was perfect without sin, he would be just the same as Jesus Christ, who was also perfect and without sin.

God created Adam perfect, without sin. That was the point. However, it was not sin that led Adam to disobey. It was Adam's disobedience that led to sin. Jesus Christ was God who gave sinful humans the right to be restored to perfect sinless beings. That process has not been completed. The restoration of humankind will be completed very soon.

 

[Joseph77]

What comes out is disagreement without reasons to back them up. Doesn't this get even a little bit old after awhile?

It is repeated hundreds of times on this forum alone, thousands of times or tens of thousands of times on all forums all counted online worldwide.

Note the truth is simple: You once asked (I think) Where did the sin nature come from? (if not, no worries, the answer is the same) >> the Truth never changes >>
Scripture says that God created humans good and without a sinful nature: “God created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them” (Genesis 1:27).

Then, however, Genesis 3 records the disobedience of Adam and Eve. By that one action, sin entered into their nature.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I challenge you to find a verse, which clearly states that God created human beings without a sin nature.
And I also challenge you to make sense of James who clearly says that lust leads to sin. If Adam didn't have lust or some other motive for sin, then why did he sin? Think about it. Why did he sin? Your view doesn't have an answer to that question.

 

[CadyandZoe]

God created Adam perfect, without sin. That was the point. However, it was not sin that led Adam to disobey. It was Adam's disobedience that led to sin. Jesus Christ was God who gave sinful humans the right to be restored to perfect sinless beings. That process has not been completed. The restoration of humankind will be completed very soon.

Same question. Where does the Bible explicitly say that God created Adam perfect, without sin? You won't find it. You say that Adam's disobedience led to sin, when in fact, Adam's disobedience IS sin. And sinful acts come from sinful intent, which was in Adam from the beginning.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The "disagreement" as you call it, was called heresy centuries ago, and has been brought up at times since then, even "believed" after false teachers get away with it.

i.e. there's no reason and no argument that can make it not wrong - whoever taught you the heresy , I would not ever trust them.

The heresy is not "isolated", as if by itself. No. Other false teachings are associated with it, the more that gets revealed, the more that gets exposed in the Light of Scripture and Jesus, the deeper it is seen (like a root of error growing into many errors) ....

THe many groups with so many errors are everywhere, in most cities, countries, and all over the internet, including on this forum. Only a few , if any, ever repent.

Many people have been accused of heresy; many have died at the hands of the inquisitor. Some where guilty, others were innocent. Let the scripture and sound reasoning decide. Original sin is a Catholic Doctrine. Are you Catholic? Do you believe that you are being held to account for Adam's sin or your own sin?

I assume you sin. We all do. Were you born perfect? Did your disobedience lead to sin or did you already have sinful motives? Adam and Eve were no different than the rest of us.

 

[Timtofly]

Same question. Where does the Bible explicitly say that God created Adam perfect, without sin? You won't find it. You say that Adam's disobedience led to sin, when in fact, Adam's disobedience IS sin. And sinful acts come from sinful intent, which was in Adam from the beginning.

I challenge you to find a verse that God created sinful humanity.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I challenge you to find a verse that God created sinful humanity.

From my perspective, the fact is self-evident. God creates two human beings and places them in a garden with one prohibition, to not eat from one particular tree. That tree just happens to have the name, "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Satan convinces Eve that if she were to eat from the tree, she would gain wisdom. What did she learn? She came to learn an important truth about herself. She is a sinner. The same is true of Adam. What wisdom did he gain from the tree? He is a sinner, willing to disobey God in order to gain wisdom.

If Adam were the perfect being you imagine, He would have said to Satan, "Why would I want to disobey God? How does that make any sense? That idea never crossed my mind and I would appreciate it if you wouldn't bring it up again." People created with perfect moral character, would not eat from the tree. Ever. The same is true of Eve. Perfect moral beings have no reason or motive to disobey God. The idea isn't interesting to them, they aren't tempted by it and can't be seduced into it.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Genesis 2:16-17 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."


Notice that God DOES NOT tell Adam IF you eat from it you will surely die. God commands Adam not to eat of the fruit and tells him that in the day he eats of it he will surely die.

Notice that God does not tell Adam that he will “die on the day he eats of the fruit” but that in the day he eats of it he will die, or that death will be a certainty (מוּת‎ מוּת or transliterated muth muth, die die). ‎ From the point of the command to Adam’s sin death was in the balance, hanging out just beyond the frame. Once Adam disobeys death will enter the world (at least the world of man).

Genesis 3:17-19 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."


Adam ate of the fruit.

What was the consequences of Adam’s disobedience? 1. The ground was cursed and Adam would have to work to eat of it. 2. Adam would return to the dust from which he was taken (Adam would die and his body would decay).

What change(s) happened to Adam?

Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—

Adam became like God knowing good and evil.

What did God do because of this change?


Genesis 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

Adam was sent out of the Garden and back to the ground from which Adam was made (remember, Adam was not created in the Garden but outside of the Garden and then placed in it).

I was tracking with you until you said that Adam was not created in the Garden. Where in scripture do you find this?