The "Fall" in Genesis (what does the text of Scripture say?)

[John Caldwell]

I was tracking with you until you said that Adam was not created in the Garden. Where in scripture do you find this?

Genesis 2:7-8
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.

I understand this to indicate God created man and then planted a garden, and placed Adam (already created) in the garden.

 

[Timtofly]

From my perspective, the fact is self-evident. God creates two human beings and places them in a garden with one prohibition, to not eat from one particular tree. That tree just happens to have the name, "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Satan convinces Eve that if she were to eat from the tree, she would gain wisdom. What did she learn? She came to learn an important truth about herself. She is a sinner. The same is true of Adam. What wisdom did he gain from the tree? He is a sinner, willing to disobey God in order to gain wisdom.

If Adam were the perfect being you imagine, He would have said to Satan, "Why would I want to disobey God? How does that make any sense? That idea never crossed my mind and I would appreciate it if you wouldn't bring it up again." People created with perfect moral character, would not eat from the tree. Ever. The same is true of Eve. Perfect moral beings have no reason or motive to disobey God. The idea isn't interesting to them, they aren't tempted by it and can't be seduced into it.

Sin has nothing to do with perfect moral character. Are you saying there are no perfect moral characters today? Being a moral character happens with or without sin present. The tree did not give them knowledge though. That is the lie of Satan. If you accept that point, you accept that Satan is the one with truth, and God is the liar. That reasoning places one as a follower of Satan. It was not the tree that changed them. It was the act of Adam, disobeying God, that changed them. They were changed from perfect sinless sons of God into fallen dead flesh and blood sinners.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Sin has nothing to do with perfect moral character. Are you saying there are no perfect moral characters today? Being a moral character happens with or without sin present. The tree did not give them knowledge though. That is the lie of Satan. If you accept that point, you accept that Satan is the one with truth, and God is the liar. That reasoning places one as a follower of Satan. It was not the tree that changed them. It was the act of Adam, disobeying God, that changed them. They were changed from perfect sinless sons of God into fallen dead flesh and blood sinners.

I am defining "perfect moral character" as one who always does the right thing. The only human being who ever had perfect Moral character is Jesus, who remained sinless his entire life.

I'm not saying that the tree gave them knowledge. The only thing special about the tree, as such, is the fact that God prohibited eating from it. The reason why the Tree is called "the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is because the prohibition against eating it's fruit provided the context wherein Adam and Eve were tested.

We test something in order to gain knowledge about the condition of that thing. For instance, a chef might test the sharpness of a knife before using it in his kitchen. A teacher might test a student to ascertain the depth of his or her knowledge. A coach might scrimmage his defense against his offence to see where they might be weak.

More significantly, Navy Seals are tested to the very limits of their endurance. Why? So that each man might come to understand his own limits, proving to himself that he is able to endure much hardship.

God tested Adam and Eve, giving them but one commandment. Why? So that the couple might learn something about themselves from their failure. There was no doubt that they would fail. But Adam and Eve needed to see it for themselves in a controlled situation free of ambiguity.

This was an act of Love, on God's part. Better for Adam and Eve to know the truth about themselves so they can deal with it responsibly, seeking forgiveness, hoping for freedom, and having faith that God will deal with it. In the mean time, after being tested, they were better prepared for times when temptations would be more complex and more challenging.

 

[Nancy]

I am defining "perfect moral character" as one who always does the right thing. The only human being who ever had perfect Moral character is Jesus, who remained sinless his entire life.

I'm not saying that the tree gave them knowledge. The only thing special about the tree, as such, is the fact that God prohibited eating from it. The reason why the Tree is called "the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is because the prohibition against eating it's fruit provided the context wherein Adam and Eve were tested.

We test something in order to gain knowledge about the condition of that thing. For instance, a chef might test the sharpness of a knife before using it in his kitchen. A teacher might test a student to ascertain the depth of his or her knowledge. A coach might scrimmage his defense against his offence to see where they might be weak.

More significantly, Navy Seals are tested to the very limits of their endurance. Why? So that each man might come to understand his own limits, proving to himself that he is able to endure much hardship.

God tested Adam and Eve, giving them but one commandment. Why? So that the couple might learn something about themselves from their failure. There was no doubt that they would fail. But Adam and Eve needed to see it for themselves in a controlled situation free of ambiguity.

This was an act of Love, on God's part. Better for Adam and Eve to know the truth about themselves so they can deal with it responsibly, seeking forgiveness, hoping for freedom, and having faith that God will deal with it. In the mean time, after being tested, they were better prepared for times when temptations would be more complex and more challenging.

"I'm not saying that the tree gave them knowledge. The only thing special about the tree, as such, is the fact that God prohibited eating from it. The reason why the Tree is called "the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is because the prohibition against eating it's fruit provided the context wherein Adam and Eve were tested." <--- So in any case, it could have been a command to not sit on a blue rock! Haha. But, God chose the Tree.


We test something in order to gain knowledge about the condition of that thing. For instance, a chef might test the sharpness of a knife before using it in his kitchen. A teacher might test a student to ascertain the depth of his or her knowledge. A coach might scrimmage his defense against his offence to see where they might be weak. <--- And if God did not test us then, we are not loved...so "count it all joy..." Amen!

 

[Timtofly]

I am defining "perfect moral character" as one who always does the right thing. The only human being who ever had perfect Moral character is Jesus, who remained sinless his entire life.

I'm not saying that the tree gave them knowledge. The only thing special about the tree, as such, is the fact that God prohibited eating from it. The reason why the Tree is called "the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is because the prohibition against eating it's fruit provided the context wherein Adam and Eve were tested.

We test something in order to gain knowledge about the condition of that thing. For instance, a chef might test the sharpness of a knife before using it in his kitchen. A teacher might test a student to ascertain the depth of his or her knowledge. A coach might scrimmage his defense against his offence to see where they might be weak.

More significantly, Navy Seals are tested to the very limits of their endurance. Why? So that each man might come to understand his own limits, proving to himself that he is able to endure much hardship.

God tested Adam and Eve, giving them but one commandment. Why? So that the couple might learn something about themselves from their failure. There was no doubt that they would fail. But Adam and Eve needed to see it for themselves in a controlled situation free of ambiguity.

This was an act of Love, on God's part. Better for Adam and Eve to know the truth about themselves so they can deal with it responsibly, seeking forgiveness, hoping for freedom, and having faith that God will deal with it. In the mean time, after being tested, they were better prepared for times when temptations would be more complex and more challenging.

Nope.

You cannot compare what fallen humans do now to the condition that Adam was in prior to disobeying. What you are teaching is that in heaven, humans still have a sin nature. If there was never a condition without a sin nature, what hinders there ever will be a sinless condition in heaven? Jesus came to show us what Adam was before Adam disobeyed. When those in Christ die physically they will once more be restored to Adam's original sinless condition. No way does Adam have sin, and still be the image of God. It was Adam's disobedience that changed humans from sinless to become sinful in nature. We are no longer in God's image in physical flesh and blood.

 

[CadyandZoe]

"I'm not saying that the tree gave them knowledge. The only thing special about the tree, as such, is the fact that God prohibited eating from it. The reason why the Tree is called "the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is because the prohibition against eating it's fruit provided the context wherein Adam and Eve were tested." <--- So in any case, it could have been a command to not sit on a blue rock! Haha. But, God chose the Tree.


We test something in order to gain knowledge about the condition of that thing. For instance, a chef might test the sharpness of a knife before using it in his kitchen. A teacher might test a student to ascertain the depth of his or her knowledge. A coach might scrimmage his defense against his offence to see where they might be weak. <--- And if God did not test us then, we are not loved...so "count it all joy..." Amen!

Amen. Three different apostles talk about the testing of our faith, Paul in Romans, Peter, and James.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Nope.

You cannot compare what fallen humans do now to the condition that Adam was in prior to disobeying. What you are teaching is that in heaven, humans still have a sin nature. If there was never a condition without a sin nature, what hinders there ever will be a sinless condition in heaven? Jesus came to show us what Adam was before Adam disobeyed. When those in Christ die physically they will once more be restored to Adam's original sinless condition. No way does Adam have sin, and still be the image of God. It was Adam's disobedience that changed humans from sinless to become sinful in nature. We are no longer in God's image in physical flesh and blood.

That's a very good question. A very, very good question. I agree with your idea that some day, Jesus will free his followers from sin.

Your question gets right to the heart of the matter and in my view, is a good reason to reject the idea that Adam was originally a perfect moral being. Before I elaborate on your insightful question, let me correct a common misconception that some have (not specifically talking about you), that we sin because we have a sinful nature.

Let's compare human beings to animals. To a great degree, the behavior of animals is deterministic. Animals behave according to their nature. A shark attacks a swimmer, not out of malice or ill intent, but from hunger and programmed biological instinct. A dog bites a stranger, not out of hatred, bitterness, or animosity, but from biologically programmed fear response. Bears attack campers because that is their nature. Lions attack gazelles because that is there nature.

By contrast, Human beings have freedom of the will. Our evil deeds are not deterministic; they come from evil intent. When Cain killed Abel, Cain wasn't acting according to his nature, he made a free-will choice to kill his brother.

Like animals, human beings have programmed responses, but unlike animals, human beings are capable of deciding against their programming. For instance, human beings are programmed with a sense of self-preservation. But in a time of crisis, human beings are capable of acting contrary the strong urge to survive, risking life in order to save another human being. such as when a firefighter enters a building to save a child. James the apostle writes about this in his epistle.

James 1:14-16
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

All human beings have lust within them. All human beings are capable of being carried away and enticed by lust. But unlike animals, human beings are not compelled to act on that lust. Human beings have the freedom to resist lust and make better, wiser, more appropriate choices. If they want to do that. Later James expands on his point.

James 4:1-3
What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.

Note the conflict in our members. When a person does good and right things, that individual has temporarily won the battle being waged in his or her members. A man has desires and lusts that wage war in his members, but a good man is practiced in overcoming his base instincts in order to make wise and good choices. Human beings have free will. We don't act according to a sin nature; our will stands above our nature. We have the option to do otherwise.

So why do we make wrong choices? Once we answer that question, we will be in a good position to address Adam's sin, and our future sinlessness.

 

[Nancy]

Genesis 2:7-8
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.

I understand this to indicate God created man and then planted a garden, and placed Adam (already created) in the garden.

Yes, and when he was banished: "therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken."

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

reject the idea that Adam was originally a perfect moral being.

In the fear of the Lord I say, No! "God created them man and wife" <<a perfect moral being>> but "he abode not for a night" ere they faltered and died "dead in sin". "And they heard the Voice of the Lord Jesus Christ coming walking in the garden (of his enjoyment Eden) in the evening cool of day and the LORD GOD CALLED unto Adam, WHERE ART THOU?!"

 

[Timtofly]

So why do we make wrong choices? Once we answer that question, we will be in a good position to address Adam's sin

We make wrong choices because we have free will. Not because we are sinners, nor have a sin nature. Adam did not have a sin nature, nor was Adam a sinner. Adam did not sin. Adam disobeyed God. At the moment Adam disobeyed God, Adam died physically and spiritually. Adam received a corruptible body of flesh, that now had a sin nature which was full of lust and the desire to please only the body of flesh and blood.

Romans 5:9-14

9 Therefore, since we have now come to be considered righteous by means of his bloody sacrificial death, how much more will we be delivered through him from the anger of God’s judgment!
10 For if we were reconciled with God through his Son’s death when we were enemies, how much more will we be delivered by his life, now that we are reconciled!
11 And not only will we be delivered in the future, but we are boasting about God right now, because he has acted through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, through whom we have already received that reconciliation.
12 Here is how it works: it was through one individual that sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and in this way death passed through to the whole human race, inasmuch as everyone sinned.
13 Sin was indeed present in the world before Torah was given, but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah.
14 Nevertheless death ruled from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam’s violation of a direct command. In this, Adam prefigured the one who was to come.

Our sin is not exactly like Adam's violation of a direct command. Adam disobeyed God. Adam was not a sinner, nor had a sin nature. Jesus Christ was the Second Adam. His obedience on the Cross was God Himself being obedient to restore the one command Adam disobeyed.

Romans 5:15-21

15 But the free gift is not like the offence. For if, because of one man’s offence, many died, then how much more has God’s grace, that is, the gracious gift of one man, Yeshua the Messiah, overflowed to many!
16 No, the free gift is not like what resulted from one man’s sinning; for from one sinner came judgment that brought condemnation; but the free gift came after many offences and brought acquittal.
17 For if, because of the offence of one man, death ruled through that one man; how much more will those receiving the overflowing grace, that is, the gift of being considered righteous, rule in life through the one man Yeshua the Messiah!
18 In other words, just as it was through one offence that all people came under condemnation, so also it is through one righteous act that all people come to be considered righteous.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man, many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the other man, many will be made righteous.
20 And the Torah came into the picture so that the offence would proliferate; but where sin proliferated, grace proliferated even more.
21 All this happened so that just as sin ruled by means of death, so also grace might rule through causing people to be considered righteous, so that they might have eternal life, through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

It is Roman Catholicism abomination that man only after some test-period after God had created him, fell in sin. GE

The desperate wicked nature of sin not only is treason against the majesty of God, but it scorns to confess its crime.
Ralph Venning

Treason delays not; it scorns judgement as justice. GE