Salvation Through Baptism ???

[marksman]

Repentance and belief in Jesus is what saves us with His Blood atonement, not water baptism. I was baptized in water when I found out it was a commandment. But I was already saved by His Blood.

No one is saying you are saved by water baptism. please note the command was to repent AND be baptized for the remission of sin. This means both need to happen for the remission of sins, not just one or the other.

 

[marksman]

You said "What saves people is repentance AND BAPTISM."

But if that is not saying that you are saved through water baptism, so be it then.

Tong
R0870

Obviously, to anyone who can read, it is not saying that. What I said was REPENTANCE and BAPTISM. That is two words, not one. Please explain what you don't understand by those two words?

 

[JunChosen]

For I believe that there is no work, no thing and no person (except Jesus Christ), nothing whatsoever that could save man, but God; and that God saves through faith.

I agree with everything you said above except for your last statement, and that is where we differ. The very Jesus that you worship said: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 is the only criteria by which man can be saved!

Salvation is not through water Baptism as you believe. It is through faith. And that had always been His way of salvation, yesterday and while there is now.
Titus 3:5 does not even speak about water baptism.

I've NEVER said water baptism saves, where did you get that notion? However I did say not through faith because salvation is a gift. You are not understanding Ephesians 2:8-9. I think if you study Titus 3:5 diligently and prayerfully, you will have a different perspective regarding salvation.

You are correct, Titus 3:5 does not speak of water baptism but the washing of regeneration. The word baptism means to "wash" that is, when Scripture speaks of baptism (the washing away of our sins), it almost always is speaking of spiritual baptism. and only God can perform that and NEVER man through faith as you claim.

To God Be The Glory

 

[mjrhealth]

get immersed in His Name today.

No they get baptized in the Holy Spirit just as He promised.

 

[JunChosen]

No they get baptized in the Holy Spirit just as He promised.

If you are talking about Acts 2 you are totally mistaken.

Weill got to go to bed now.

 

[mjrhealth]

If you are talking about Acts 2 you are totally mistaken.

Weill got to go to bed now.

No not at all.

 

[Tong2020]

My response to you regarding John 3:18 was due to the fact that you gloried in that verse saying "Nope no water here" ... I proved you wrong by telling you to keep reading.

Now then, the salvation plan and water baptism...

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Here the Apostle connects WATER BAPTISM AND RECEIVING THE HOLY GHOST...

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

John the Baptists' baptism for the remission of sins was the precursor...

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Let's have a look at your Romans 1:16...

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The "Gospel Of Christ" is the Death, Burial, Resurrection and Ascension.

To "obey the salvation plan" we MUST OBEY...

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,

1. Death - Repent,
2. Burial - and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
3. Resurrection - and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Buried with him into his DEATH is to have remission of sins, with no remission you are not dead with Christ. Therefore you have NOT OBEYED the salvation plan and your "harmony of scripture" goes up in smoke.

The gospel of Christ is not only the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ, but is everything about Jesus Christ.

Getting water baptized is just one among many things that a believer in the gospel of Christ is expected to do. It is one among many things that could bear witness or could show the faith he have, and be blessed. So, such things in relation to salvation, at best, could only be evidence of faith, faith through which God saves them. They are not what saves the believer nor are steps or requirements for salvation.

Many Christians were made to think and believe that salvation is attained by their doing of this or that, or by their compliance to a set of requirements or steps of salvation, which if not done or are not satisfied because of inaction and non compliance, there is no salvation (I am reminded of them who were spoken of in Acts 15, those who went out from the church in Jerusalem, who taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” It was one of the first, if not the first, attempt to add in perversion of the gospel of Christ, the matter of the requirement that one must be circumcised). That these things looks good, appear righteous, and sound reasonable to many, is what makes such acceptable to the unsuspecting Christian who then is easily deceived to believing such unscriptural doctrine. So it is very important that the Christian always examine in scriptures, any such teaching, and test the spirits, and keep in mind how he was saved, that is, through faith in God; and understand that only with faith that God is pleased. Anything and whatsoever is done that is not from faith is sinful, which then renders all such acts/deeds taught as necessary works, requirements or steps of salvation, as senseless, unprofitable, and even sinful, if without faith. Faith is what makes such acts be good and pleasing to God.

Thus salvation is through faith in God.

Tong
R0875

 

[Tong2020]

Ok...so it’s not the group in Rome. Which group is it?

The house/household of God, which is the church of the living God. At the time Paul wrote that to Timothy, where do you say one can find the house/household of God, the church of the living God?

Tong
R0876

 

[Tong2020]

A good work can only be a good work if it is done by the grace IN CHRIST ALONE. Changing the meaning of "works" is a straw man fallacy. Good works are "good" only if they are bathed in God's grace. You commit this error constantly.

Works would be good works only if done with faith (in God).

Tong
R0877

 

[Tong2020]

Obviously, to anyone who can read, it is not saying that. What I said was REPENTANCE and BAPTISM. That is two words, not one. Please explain what you don't understand by those two words?

You said, "What saves people is repentance AND BAPTISM." (post #830). Unless you changed your mind.

And I had disagreed with your statement there. See my post #883.

Tong
R0878

 

[Illuminator]

Works would be good works only if done with faith (in God).

Tong
R0877

That is what I keep trying to tell you. Paul's "works" usually means "works of the law". James "works" means good works. They are completely different words with different meanings. Using them interchangeably as if they mean the same thing is a constant error found here and every forum on the internet.

 

[mailmandan]

Sooooo, your response to the Catholic position on faith and works is by posting an ANTI-Catholic explanation that perverts the teaching?? You’re starting the conversation from an extremely flawed position because you continue to misrepresent the Catholic position.

The Catholic position on faith and works is clear. There is no misrepresentation on my part. The Roman Catholic church clearly teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS. Period.

All of the verses you presented mention OUR works – things WE do that are FROM us. The works that are an essential part of faith are NOT our works. We simply cooperate with the works that GOD provided FOR us. It is as much a response to His calling as Baptism.

Works are an essential part of faith "infuses" works "into" faith and which results in faith "is" these works. That is the error that kept me tripped up prior to my conversion. I basically defined faith "as" works (just as you are now) so saved through faith became saved through faith AND WORKS. Believers are created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Just because God prepared these good works beforehand that we should walk in them does not mean we call them God's works, as if God did the works for us. We are the one's who accomplish these good works. We are not passive as these good works are being accomplished. Your argument is just smoke and mirrors and is a vain attempt to "get around" multiple passages of scripture that make it clear we are not saved by works and try to make those passages say we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. Sugar coated double talk.

Finally - the answer to your question would be this:
“I cooperated with YOUR saving grace as YOU commanded.”
I would HATE to be in a position to say:
“I hid your treasure in a hole and waited for your return.”

Seeking salvation by works is not cooperating with saving grace. We are justified by faith and have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:1-2) Hiding a treasure in a hole and doing nothing with it represents unbelief.

I relied on HIS finished work – and ALL of the saving grace that comes FROM that finished work.

In other words, you rely on His finished work (at best for the most part) yet you also trust in works that you accomplish (at least in part). You teach salvation by faith AND WORKS no matter how much you try and sugar coat it.

Matt. 25:34-40
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

After a casual reading of the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), one might conclude that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself to be non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture - scripture must harmonize with scripture. This passage needs to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works, as you assume. That would be contrary to (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) etc...

One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 is the fruit that will be manifested in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good works, but because righteousness was imputed to them on the basis of faith, not works. (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition/basis/means of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow.

So it's understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress works which are a manifestation of faith (James 2:14) by which one receives eternal life. Notice also how "practicing righteousness and love for his brother" is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is born of God not in order to become born of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life.

Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers YOU DID IT TO ME.’

Isn't it interesting that the righteous said, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ That is very humble. (unlike the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector - Luke 18:9-14) Then Jesus said, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers YOU DID IT TO ME.’

*Notice how it's point out the sheep are "righteous" in this parable and "as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers." Are believers accounted as righteous by faith or works? (Romans 4:2-6) For the righteous, these good works are seen by the Lord as works done in righteousness. Now what about for the unbeliever who seems to be a good humanitarian and has at times gave food and drink to the needy, clothed the naked and visited someone sick in prison? Are such people sheep or goats?

 

[mailmandan]

A good work can only be a good work if it is done by the grace IN CHRIST ALONE.

I agree. Good works done out of faith IN CHRIST ALONE.

Changing the meaning of "works" is a straw man fallacy. Good works are "good" only if they are bathed in God's grace. You commit this error constantly.

Where did I change the meaning of works or claim that any works are considered good works whether they are bathed in God's grace or not?

 

[mailmandan]

That is what I keep trying to tell you. Paul's "works" usually means "works of the law". James "works" means good works. They are completely different words with different meanings. Using them interchangeably as if they mean the same thing is a constant error found here and every forum on the internet.

Typical argument made by those who teach we are saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law). Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do which are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians accomplish which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

 

[Joseph77]

Repentance and belief in Jesus is what saves us with His Blood atonement, not water baptism. I was baptized in water when I found out it was a commandment. But I was already saved by His Blood.

"Good Enough" ...... ?

Whenever the Apostles went and made disciples as direct by Jesus the Savior Messiah King of the Jews ,
they told them the commandments, faithfully, without neglecting Jesus commands.
Thus there was no confusion for a while, until after the Apostles were gone - then the wolves came in , as the Apostles had warned they were already circling the flock and would come in and tear up the flock after the Apostles departed,, "thinking to change the commandments and the times"-they did so, as written.

So when people are restored by faith to God, in God's Perfect Time and Schedule, they learn , or they reject, He does not coerce them against their free will - they can still, and many do, revel in the flesh and rebel, whether to judgment or not, God Knows.

 

[mailmandan]

My response to you regarding John 3:18 was due to the fact that you gloried in that verse saying "Nope no water here" ... I proved you wrong by telling you to keep reading.

You did not prove me wrong. There is no water baptism found in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now then, the salvation plan and water baptism...

Water baptism "follows" salvation. Acts 10:43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. By the time that you skip down multiple verses, we see baptism mentioned - 22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. So why wasn't baptism mentioned in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 if it's allegedly absolutely necessary for salvation? We see "and is baptized" in Mark 16:16, yet Jesus clarifies the first cause with, "but he who does not believe will be condemned." This is what happens when you build doctrine on one half of one verse, then ignore the rest. Your method of hermeneutics is flawed.

Here the Apostle connects WATER BAPTISM AND RECEIVING THE HOLY GHOST...

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

In Acts 19:2, Paul asked these disciples of John if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verses 2-3 reveals that they had not yet believed in Christ unto salvation. They had not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit and they received the baptism of John, but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving belief in Christ, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul "laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit" which is the exception, not the rule.

John the Baptists' baptism for the remission of sins was the precursor...

In Acts 2:38, we read - "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, we read - John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

So in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, was this baptism of repentance FOR (in order to obtain) the remission of sins or was it or FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) the remission of sins received upon repentance? In Matthew 3:11, we read: I baptize you with water FOR repentance.. If translated "in order to obtain" the verse does not make sense. I baptize you with water FOR (in order to obtain) repentance? or I baptize you with water FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) repentance? Obviously, the latter.

Whatever baptism is "for" in Acts 2:38, it's "for" in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3 - "in regards to" remission of sins received upon repentance.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (get water baptized and you will be saved? NO) ANSWER: 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Once again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Joseph77]

Let everyone read the Bible.
When they are told to be immersed in Jesus' Name, let them be immersed.
When anyone , anywhere, contradicts Scripture, let them repent.

 

[Candidus]

Think!!! You can be baptized every day of your life and still go to hell!!!

And, if you are depending on water to save you, it will not extinguish the fires of Hell for you either!

 

[Mr C]

Your water baptism won't wash away sins. ONLY the Blood of Jesus can do that. The very Book you are quoting was paid for by His Blood.

Mark 14:24



24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

The Lord connected water and blood together. (not me)


1Jo 5:6 ¶ This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.


Notice water and blood is connected to the death of Christ. (Rom. 6:3-6)


John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
For I believe that there is no work, no thing and no person (except Jesus Christ), nothing whatsoever that could save man, but God; and that God saves through faith.

I agree with everything you said above except for your last statement, and that is where we differ. The very Jesus that you worship said: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 is the only criteria by which man can be saved!

I have no problem with what is written in John 6:44. But I don't see that as a criterion by which man can be saved. What Jesus said there pertains to why or how man can come to Him, which is, with the Father's drawing him. That is not a criterion by which man can be saved, but a working of God in relation to His saving.

I've NEVER said water baptism saves, where did you get that notion? However I did say not through faith because salvation is a gift. You are not understanding Ephesians 2:8-9. I think if you study Titus 3:5 diligently and prayerfully, you will have a different perspective regarding salvation.

Perhaps then I mistook that in one of your statements, if you have never said that. And so be it then and I take note of that.

Somehow I gather here that you do not believe that God saves us through faith. For which I disagree. It is your opinion that I am not understanding Ephesians 2:8-9. I think it is the other way around. For the verse is plain and simple:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

What is your understanding of the passage?

Also, I must say that you ought to read carefully what Titus 3:5 says:

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

What is it there that is unclear to you?

Or what is it there that you want me to understand which I you think I don't? Tell me so I could consider it.

You are correct, Titus 3:5 does not speak of water baptism but the washing of regeneration. The word baptism means to "wash" and only God can perform that and NEVER man through faith as you claim.

To God Be The Glory

There is no word "baptism" or "baptize" there JC. Not even in the original Greek text, you will find the Greek word "baptizo" or "baptismos".

I never claimed that it is man who performs the washing of regeneration, which you correctly said is God's work. As I said, you ought to read carefully what Titus 3:5 says.

Tong
R0879

 

[Joseph77]

Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for ... - Bible Hub
biblehub.com/acts/22-16.htm
(16) Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins.--Here, again, we have words which are not in the narrative of Acts 9. They show that for the Apostle that baptism was no formal or ceremonial act, but was joined with repentance, and, faith being presupposed, brought with it the assurance of a real forgiveness.