Grace vs Legalism

[Waiting on him]

God does not ask us to love others more than ourselves, for the command is that we love ourselves. "Love your neighbor as yourself."
But certainly, I cannot will myself to love; God must work that in and through us.

Then how do you surrender your life to Him?

 

[Behold]

If a Christian believes that he has been cleansed of all sin and therefore does not have sin, is he not in the same boat as the gnostic who believes that he has no sin?

The Gnostic is going to hell.
The Believer is not.
Why?
Because the Gnostic does not BELIEVE they have sin that needs to be redeemed by the Blood of Jesus, so, they die : "You shall die IN YOUR SINs", as Jesus said.
See, someone is going to pay for those sins.
You will or Jesus has.
But not both.

Whereas, the Believer, who has received God's Righteousness and Christ has become their sin, has admitted they had sin, and has agreed with God that they need to be saved, and so, that is not the gnosic idea, at all.

This is not complicated, justbyfaith.
But for some reason, it is for you
So, your issue is one of 2 things.
You ither cannot understand, or your teacher who taught you was so bad, was so incorrect, that you have become mentally locked into their false teaching the same way youi became trapped in Hebrews, and can't get out.

 

[Candidus]

Then how do you surrender your life to Him?

The command of Jesus to love ourselves has everything to do with us surrendering to Him. One who does not love themselves will not.

 

[Waiting on him]

The command of Jesus to love ourselves has everything to do with us surrendering to Him. One who does not love themselves will not.

I guess I'd need a quote where He says love yourself.

 

[Waiting on him]

The command of Jesus to love ourselves has everything to do with us surrendering to Him. One who does not love themselves will not.

I have seen a verse where He say esteem others better than self, or one where He says set your thoughts on others things, which to me would imply needs.

 

[BarneyFife]

God does not ask us to love others more than ourselves, for the command is that we love ourselves. "Love your neighbor as yourself."
But certainly, I cannot will myself to love; God must work that in and through us.

Well, actually...
Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. (Philippians 2:3)

 

[farouk]

I have seen a verse where He say esteem others better than self, or one where He says set your thoughts on others things, which to me would imply needs.

Philippians 2.3...

 

[Candidus]

I have seen a verse where He say esteem others better than self, or one where He says set your thoughts on others things, which to me would imply needs.

"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others." Phil. 2:3-4.

Verse four explains what Paul means by "value others above yourselves." He simply agrees with the command of Jesus to love your neighbor as yourself.

Dying to "self" is Buddhism, not Christianity.

 

[marks]

Why did Paul write this?

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

You need to put my question to CL in context of her views.

This question does not represent anything I think, it's designed to elict what she thinks.

 

[marks]

I hear you sister! I stopped reading much that Behold writes here anymore. He is the teacher, he says. What does God say? But... there are always some who like to have their ears tickled. Hopefully marks is not too quickly climbing aboard that train.

I'm on that train, Thankfully!!!

Grace and all grace and nothing but grace.

God is so good!!

 

[BarneyFife]

You dont need to memorized the bible, you need to discern it.
If you understood this, we could be agreed.
You are nearly 50 yrs, "friend", without discerning the word, which is why you have no idea what you are talking about.
And apparently your High Horse is just as confused.
But you do like to talk, and no doubt, you'll do more. "friend".
Be sure to give your horse my best regards...

Wow, it's like you didn't even read the quote you, yourself, provided.

 

[Waiting on him]

Philippians 2.3...

Well, thanks for the response, in my reading of this I see Him saying put off self, and put on Christ, maybe I have a perverted view?

 

[farouk]

Well, thanks for the response, in my reading of this I see Him saying put off self, and put on Christ, maybe I have a perverted view?

@Waiting on him No, your observation is good.

(Someone else provided that reference simultaneously to me also...)

 

[BarneyFife]

You dont need to memorized the bible, you need to discern it.
If you understood this, we could be agreed.
You are nearly 50 yrs, "friend", without discerning the word, which is why you have no idea what you are talking about.
And apparently your High Horse is just as confused.
But you do like to talk, and no doubt, you'll do more. "friend".
Be sure to give your horse my best regards...

By the way, young children most certainly do need to memorize the Bible.
And if being in agreement with you meant that I would have your sunny disposition, I'll pass, thanks.
You probably won't be bothered with my 'talk' for much longer, the way things are going, at least not to you, personally.
As a character in an old movie once said;
"Our conversations have not been such that I am anxious to continue them."

I imagine you'll be one of those folks who has to have the last word, as well, so let's be done with that.

 

[marks]

He simply allows them to go, just as he allows many to reject Him from the start. Not so complicated. God is a Great Lover of religious liberty issues.

I don't see that being possible.

There are the passages such as Peter, an inheritance is reserved in heaven for you, who are being kept by the power of God through faith to a salvation ready to be revealed, Colossians, for your life is hid with Christ in God, and when Christ, who is our life, shall appear you also will appear with Him in glory. I've seen so many more like this that make such explicit statements.

But then I have another difficulty with the idea that God's children will walk away from Him back into spiritual death.

It's this. Rebellion against God would be a work of the flesh, would it not? Apathy to God, same thing? Works of the flesh? Evil desires for sinful things? Fear and doubt? All works of the flesh.

So, isn't it the flesh that God has already condemned, and judged in Christ on the cross? How then does the child of God walk away?

There is also the problem of chastisement. God says that He disciplines (lit. disciples like a child) His children, and it's effective, "for our good", and produces the peaceable fruits of righteousness. Isn't that true?

Much love!

 

[marks]

As a character in an old movie once said;
"Our conversations have not been such that I am anxious to continue them."

I love old movies! They knew how to speak in those days!

 

[marks]

God most certainly doesn't make us into robots.

He transforms us from being dogs or swine into being sheep.

A dog returns to its vomit and a pig to its wallowing in the mire.

Sheep despise vomit and mud; and will only partake of it involuntarily.

Put a pig in the palace and it will run back to the mud the first chance it gets.

Put a sheep in the mud and it will run to water the first chance it gets.

So you see, we are not made into mindless robots; but God does change our very nature so that we do not desire to sin any longer as true believers.

Our new disposition is our salvation; it has nothing to do with whether we are currently located in the mud. If we despise the mud and would run to the water, God knows that we are His.

And furthermore, its not like this isn't what we want. Being His children, we want to be His children.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

So, isn't it the flesh that God has already condemned, and judged in Christ on the cross? How then does the child of God walk away?

You're speaking of something resembling forensic justification, and if you look into it, you'll find it's fairly mystical and not spiritually viable. Justification is purely substitutional. The entire scope of atonement, on the other hand, is a different story.

For me the bottom line on salvation as a relationship is are we saved robots or not? And if we are, then why did God give us freedom of choice to begin with? He could have saved us and Himself an awful lot of heartache by making us will-less creatures, to begin with. The psychological ramifications of complete free will can be addressed in other and better ways than the rigid doctrine of eternal security. This is my interpretation of the entire testimony of Scripture on the subject as I perceive it, nothing more. I believe it to be correct, but, as with any other doctrine, I wouldn't recommend that anyone accept it without much intense, personal study of their own.

 

[marks]

1 John 2a is about both. But Jesus is only our Advocate for trespasses, not willful sins of lawlessness. Did you know that? So it is possible to stay in the Spirit to that degree.

So that's a yes?

 

[CharismaticLady]

It is speaking of a lifestyle of sin.

(1Jn 1:6-9) sets the tone for the whole book.

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

But you do realize don't you that those who walk in darkness, do NOT have the light of God in them anywhere? So what does that tell you?

John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The first chapter of 1 John, from 5-10, is continuous list of contrasts going back and forth. Light vs. Darkness. Not everyone in Johns congregation were Christians. Some had even given heedance to the heresy of Gnosticism. 1 John 4:1-3. 1 John chapter 3 is another list of contrasts of thought going back and forth between Jesus/sinless vs. the devil/sin.