What Keeps Us From Sinning In Heaven?

[Giuliano]

I fear there is a great gulf fixed between us in faith and practice. You know I'm holding back a lot--I'm new here. I have many things to say...

And yet, because of the relaxed atmosphere here, I've been able to gain respect/regard for many people here, including yourself.

Faith isn't worth much without works. It dies if it ever truly existed.

The Bible is an awfully voluminous work. I suppose it's possible you don't view the Canon as being divinely guided.

You are now trying to derail this thread yourself by introducing another controversy? The Bible is composed of several books, I'd say, of varying degrees of inspiration. The Jews will even point out some of the "errors" in their books. Does it matter? Not that much to me -- to the pure all things are pure, and to the impure all things are impure. People who start off with impure ideas about God will wind up worse off after reading the Bible than before if they are so vain about their intellect that they do not allow themselves to be corrected by what they read. People will say all scripture (and they mean by that the entire Bible although Paul used the word to refer to the Old Testament elsewhere) is inspired, profitable for reproof and correction -- but goodness sakes, that couldn't mean they need any correction, could it?

Who reads the Bible to find out where they are wrong? People usually read it thinking they can mine truths out of it or divine the future. I repeat the bit about unlearning things -- the best way to get to the truth is by rejecting mistaken ideas as impossible when you can see they are in error. Reading the Bible with the goal of being corrected is the best way to read it in my opinion. "Oh Lord, correct me, not in thine anger."

Sherlock Holmes: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

The person who comes from a manmade tradition of interpreting the Bible will never break free of it unless he's willing to see where what he was taught is wrong.

The Holy Spirit manages all complications over time when yielded to. Ever study Bible numerology? There is no way these people could have put together such a harmonious system of numbers. No way.

I have been wondering about the "let there be lights" (666) "in the firmament of heaven (777) lately.

 

[Waiting on him]

water ice is always at least 32 degrees or something...

Depends on atmospheric pressure. I’ve seen ice water boil under a vacuum.

 

[Waiting on him]

Now that's interesting. The same crowd that got thrown into the Lake of Fire is now outside the Holy City and not allowed in.

I find it interesting there is a day and night there in the lake of fire.

 

[Brakelite]

Death maybe, but let's see what those last chapters really say:

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

What does that mean? Don't jump to conclusions!

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Now that's interesting. The same crowd that got thrown into the Lake of Fire is now outside the Holy City and not allowed in.

So what happens to those who can't get into the city? They even tried to do so by force, but alas, God has the last say.
Revelation 20:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So who are these nations, gathered together at the end of the millenium? Who is this Gog and Magog? Well, there are differing opinions on that...possibly as many opinions as the sand of the sea mentioned above...but here's my take.
The 1000 years has book-ends. The first book-end, at the beginning of the 1000 years, is the second coming marked by the resurrection of the saints, and the change from mortality to immortality for all, including those alive at the time. It is at this time that Satan is bound having no further influence over the world...why? Because there's no-one here. Everyone who is worthy is in heaven, the rest, well they're dead.
See Revelation 20:1-3. (The bottomless pit spoken of here is the same Greek word that means abyss, the same abyss that described the earth before creation...dark, empty, lifeless. A void. After the final plagues, the planet is left a complete and utter ruin. It has likely shifted off axis after having been wholly shaken about ("like a cottage") , been pummeled by hailstones the size of small cars, unleashing radioactivity and pollution across the entire globe. It is uninhabitable.
Now see 1 Corinthians 51-55. This is the resurrection and the change.
2 Thessalonians 2 and 1 Thess. 4:15-18 describes the same event. Some would have to explain how all this took place before Pentecost...those who believe the second coming took place at that event.

So what takes place during that 1000 years...see Revelation 20:4.
Revelation 20:5 tells us that all the wicked (the rest of the dead not resurrected at the second coming...the first resurrection...se 20:6) are resurrected after the 1000 years are finished. At the same time as the raising of the wicked, Satan is loosed. Meaning he is no longer bound, having once again people to tempt and control as before, only now without restraint, and as mentioned above, leads those wicked in a futile attack on the new Jerusalem now descended from heaven to the earth. The same fire that comes down to destroy them all is what forms the lake of fire, which at that time cleanses the entire planet of all its 6000 years build up of man-made rebellion. Sin and sinners perish. SAlong with the devil and his angels.
Then from this empty now cleansed earth, we who are inside the city witness the creation of the new heaven and the new earth, wherein there shall be nothing to mar nor pollute or sully the new Eden. No sin...no death...no decay...no suffering.

 

[Brakelite]

Depends on atmospheric pressure. I’ve seen ice water boil under a vacuum.

It's intriguing that it is quicker to boil iced water than room temp. Okay @BarnyFife Sorry, promise, no more dismantling of thread topic.

 

[amadeus]

I wasn't talking about the ark.

I know, but consider what happened with the ark. The beasts, unclean and clean were saved from death along with men. Three levels of salvation or three heavens or three levels within the tabernacle in the wilderness. What and where heaven or the heavens are is related to the OP, is it not? The children of Israel enter in to have atonement made for their sins. The sons of Aaron enters into the Holy Place to make sacrifices for the children. The High Priest enters into the Holiest of Holies once each year.

People today move in and out of their walk with God just like those Israelites of old... but they should not be doing that should they? How many keep leaving even 1st heaven to go back out in the wilderness and sin one more time? How many never drop down lower than first heaven? 2nd heaven? 3rd heaven? Ultimately there is a difference. Do we understand it? God most certainly does... and if we always following Him, always letting Him lead, where will our end be?

 

[Brakelite]

Now that's interesting. The same crowd that got thrown into the Lake of Fire is now outside the Holy City and not allowed in.

Chapter 22 doesn't necessarily follow chronologically from chapter 21.

 

[Waiting on him]

Hebrews 13:11 KJV
[11] For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
Ecclesiastes 3:18 KJV
[18] I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
The flesh does not enter in.

 

[bbyrd009]

Probably are I see a few, but remember it was that roman centurion that surprised Christ, not all the religious folk. As for being coy, when one speaks in double dutch, and encoded messages, its not coy you simply dont say.

well my apologies ok, to me "death, more abundantly" and "Esau" and "Apollos" and even "Roman Centurion" as descriptions for Christians is pretty plain, but i can state my beliefs to anyone who asks mjr, they arent a secret or convoluted or anything

 

[BarneyFife]

however, put in the form of a question, it loses the force of a direct statement which can be verified true/false right? Unless some more obvious motive is revealed, a la "have you stopped beating you wife yet?" asking the question that he did could at least be made to be an innocent question? "Did God say that you couldnt eat from any tree in the garden?"

although i still agree with you of course, the point is that from the human perspective, no "lie" was told

I believe the spirit of the law was broken. I'm not sure the technicality is worth much in his defense. I believe, in the end, it will prove to add to the fire which devours him.

 

[bbyrd009]

Depends on atmospheric pressure. I’ve seen ice water boil under a vacuum.

yeh, youre making my point there

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe the spirit of the law was broken. I'm not sure the technicality is worth much in his defense. I believe, in the end, it will prove to add to the fire which devours him.

ah well sure, he is the "father of lies," but the point at the time anyway was to note that no lie can be Quoted, literally speaking

 

[BarneyFife]

Our new bodies won't have that predisposition.

Neither did Lucifer or Adam and Eve.

God will write His Law on our hearts. We will co-opt His Law. It will be part our new nature; our firmware.

Which will somehow make us more virtuous than Lucifer or Adam and Eve were in the beginning? If so, then they were ripped off/the game was fixed--which isn't possible.

The blood of Christ is the eternal antidote for sin, folks.

 

[Waiting on him]

yeh, youre making my point there

Glad I could help.

 

[BarneyFife]

Well, it seems you put some malice in my questioning and I don't know why. Anyway, if that's your way of "dodging", as you say some here like to call such, that's on you. I would guess that in answering your very own question (i.e. the thread title), you would be answering it quite the same way.

Man, as are any and every living creature, are by nature and inherently mutable, for only God is immutable. And that, even heavenly creatures are mutable. Obviously, those who are being saved, remains to be mutable, even when we are brought to be with God in heaven. So, the answer to the question in the title of this thread, is found in the man Jesus Christ or in the humanity of Christ Jesus. Now, we know that the man Christ Jesus lived a sinless life. And this is what is said regarding those who are being saved:

Romans 8: 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Not only that, but also, this is what scriptures said of one who had been born of God.

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

In the OP, you asked "Honestly, what will our edge over Lucifer, and Adam and Eve be?" The answer would be that those who are saved, unlike the three, have been born of God.

In the OP, you asked "What tangible thing will we have at our disposal that the 3 original sinners did not have that will keep us from falling as they did?" I don't know of any tangible thing, but do know one thing that we have that the three don't have that will keep us from falling as they did. And that is, God dwelling in those who are saved. In other words, the saved have God dwelling in them, while the three did not have God dwelling in them.

Tong
R1025

No malice intended whatsoever. That is why I was careful to say "They often prove to be traps." So the suspiciousness is on you.

I do not agree with your answer to the OP, as my position is explained fairly thoroughly in some of my other posts.

I fear we've gotten off to a rough start. I regret that. I'm not a bad guy. I don't believe you are, either. I wouldn't bother to say so if I didn't believe it.

Thank you for participating.

 

[BarneyFife]

This question betrays ignorance of the biblical fact that we are "kept by the power of God".

Then Lucifer and adam and Eve were ripped off. The game was fixed. Sorry, any scenario that ends in us having an inherent advantage over the 3 original sinners is unfair, which is ungodly.

The blood of Christ is the eternal antidote for sin.

 

[BarneyFife]

If you think God is going to do away with free will you're wrong. As long as intelligent beings have free will they will always be that possibility of someone choosing to rebel.

Agreed, and if you think God is going to tolerate a 2nd rebellion, you're wrong. Perfect, sinless nature + knowledge of Calvary = universe protected from 2nd rebellion.

The blood of Christ is the eternal antidote for sin.

 

[BarneyFife]

What Keeps Us From Sinning In Heaven?
OP^

First-
Sin is a word people do not define, but appear to presume, everyone believes it means the same thing to everyone.

Sinning- is the act of Committing a Sin... Again, without defining what a Sin is...many people are almost delighted to Accuse another of Committing a Sin.

Sinless- only Applies to The Lord God Himself.

All earthly men are Born IN Sin.
Once an earthly man is born alive...He IS born IN Sin: which has Nothing to do with Committing a Sin.

To OVERCOME Sin...Requires Repentance, Forgiveness, RECEIVING Salvation of ones Soul, RECEIVING the SEED of God that Rebirths the man's Natural Born spirit from a man's Natural (stock/sperm) seed, To a Spiritual Born Spirit, From Gods Seed.
This is Called: Converted IN Christ.

The ONLY thing that "GOES to Heaven"...
Is a man's Saved Living Soul AND a man's Born Again Spirit...
^^ And That ^^ occurs when a man's Physical Body Dies...
Physical Bodies Do Not Go UP to Heaven.
Physical Dead Bodies remain ON Earth...
Until the day They ARE Raised Up.
BY the Power of God.
Raised IN Glory.
Raised Un-Corruptible.
Raised IMMORTAL.
Raised SINLESS.

Raised (Converted) Bodies Are NOT raise UP to Heaven...they Are Raised UP to a New Earth.

Heaven IS Gods Kingdom.
Heaven IS Gods Throne.

God created the Earth FOR mankind's Habitat.
God created from the Earth, a Male and Female, God called called Adam...

Gen: 5
[2] Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

And PUT Adam IN a Garden that God Had planted.

Gen 2:
[8] And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

In that day of Gods creation...Adam, and the female, whom Adam named Eve...
Neither were Born in Sin and neither had committed a Sin.
And THEY...were IN a Paradise, with the Tree of Life.
God was With them...talking, Teaching, Goodness, and Truth things.
(Not to overlook
* they could Not See God
* they had Freewill, thus Had the Ability To SIN.

Mankind has evolved in thoughts, ideas, knowledge, wisdom.

Historically ON Earth:
Men have been Told What IS a Sin, "unto Them."
Adam, did not begin knowing the Word Sin...
Yet he was Told, to Defy Gods Word, His Consequence would BE Death...
Yet...still as Adam and Eve defied Gods Word and were being booted out of Gods Paradise ON Earth...IF ONLY:

Gen 3:
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

They Didn't put forth their hand, take from the Tree of Life....SO...

[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden,
[24] So he drove out the man;

Currently there IS a Firmament Between Waters.
The Firmament IS Heaven.
The DIVISION between Heaven and Earth IS Water, that no Body of an Earthly man can Cross.

Gen 1:
[6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
[8] And God called the firmament Heaven.

"Sin of man..."
1) "Was" Adam defying Gods Word.
2) "Was" Hebrews agreeing to Obey all Gods Word Said...and then Didn't.
3) "Was" God giving Gods Word Specific 10 Commands TO Moses TO Hebrews, They Agreed To Obey...and they/ many Didn't.
4) "Was" God Giving Moses Laws, Laws, Laws ...600+ Laws...with Negative CONSEQUENCES for Defying THOSE Laws.
^
Comprehend...
Who is IN NEED of Umpteen LAWS?
The Defiant!
Every defiance of the 600+ Mosaic Laws
"WERE" called unto A Hebrew...A commission of Sin.

Hebrews (in large numbers) Became Regularly Defiant of Gods Word TO them.

A new Option FOR men "faithful" (Believing IN God)
12 Tribes OF Israel, Established BY God.
Same Laws...Same Accounted Sins...maintains, "aside of Belief IN God"... Ill Behaviors of MEN Against MEN, TO the 12 Tribes "ISRAEL"...
Still Accounted AS A Sin.

4 thousand years pass...Tribes Become Scattered... some still believe in God...but Again...they (many) defy the 600+ Laws and Repeatedly Appeal to God asking for Forgiveness.

Jesus Arrives on Earth. Gods Word in the Likeness AS a man....Revealed in the last intact Tribe of Judah...calling themselves Jews.
Jesus is in Search, seeking Jews...TO BE
Heard ... and SEEN a Jew...that they Might Believe and Return TO the Word of God.( with a NEW Offering...a Better Testament...for Salvation and a New Birth, a son of God, free from Sin...NOW.

Additionally Jesus appoints men helpers...
(Disciples/Apostles) ... AND Gentile's are Listening...Hearing...Accepting...(Jesus' Offering) (BY Christ Jesus' power To ) Convert a man...to Judaism? No...Converting To Become IN Christ, by their Word of True Heartful BELIEF in God and Christ Jesus....

A conversion IN Christ Jesus...
IS a man exercising "his" Freewill BY:
Willingly Giving his WHOLE Life unto TO:
The Authority and Power of Christ Jesus.
His WHOLE LIFE ...BODY, SOUL,SPIRIT.

That IS the Extent of WHAT an Earthly man Can GIVE TO God.

And WHAT Does Christ the Lord... Do with Such a man that Gives Christ his WHOLE LIFE?

(Sure...gifts, blessings, a Prepared reservation in Heaven,(Soul & Spirit) Everlasting WHOLE Life With God, Paradise on a new Earth...

But what About THAT looming SIN thing?
All Sins Forgiven.

So okay...So IF you become Converted IN Christ...All your Sin IS Forgiven.
But what About...IF you SIN Again?

How IS That Possible?
How Does a Dead man Sin?
Your Body IS Dead, crucified with Christ.
Your Soul is Restored (23 Psalm), Saved.
Your Natural Heart is Circumcised.
You Received A New Heart.
Your old Natural spirit-(Natural Truth in your Heart)...is Cut off.
Gods Seed was planted in your new Heart.
Gods has Given you HIS SPIRIT OF (HIS) TRUTH.
A man HAVING Gods SEED "IS" a man...
Who has Become "BORN OF God"

Who that IS Born of God...CAN COMMIT SIN Against God?
1 John 3:9 PLAINLY notifies you...

1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So WHY do men claim They ARE born Again...AND...Continue TO SIN?

What "ARE" these "SINS" they claim to "Commit"?

Lying, Cheating, ?? To Whom? God? or Other men?
ARE those "Sins" of man Against man...?
(If you are a Jew, a practicing Jew...yes under Jewish Law, that IS a Sin)
But what if you Are NOT under the Jewish Law?
Then What Exactly is a man's Sin Against a Man?
And For a Converted man...WHO can Forgive SIN...But The Lord God Himself?
If a man lies to another man...
Are you Suppose to fess up (correct your error) and Ask that man's forgiveness?
Yes.
Are you asking THAT man TO Forgive you of SIN?
What ARE you asking that man?
To forgive your Trespass against him.

IS Sin and Trespass...the Same thing?
No.
Eph 2:
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead intrespasses and sins;

Gods Forgiveness OF SIN IS FOR:
Being born Flesh Bodily IN Sin, Corrupting your Soul, Non-BELIEF (in your body, soul, spirit, mind) IN the Lord God.

Once a man IS Converted...
That man has Willingly Given The Lord God Authority to Keep That Man FREE from EVER AGAIN SINNING AGAINST God

Sinner-
One who Continues to Sin.
One who is Forgiven, Dead IN Christ, Saved, Quickenen, still Bodily alive and Can Not Commit Sin.

What Keeps Us From Sinning In Heaven?
OP^

The Same that KEEPS a Converted man from Sinning ON Earth.

The Lord Gods Conversion, Authority, Power.

Glory to God,
Taken

Thank you for participating.

 

[BarneyFife]

Death maybe, but let's see what those last chapters really say:

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

What does that mean? Don't jump to conclusions!

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Now that's interesting. The same crowd that got thrown into the Lake of Fire is now outside the Holy City and not allowed in.

I don't do eternal torment. Call me Edward Fudge.

 

[BarneyFife]

Faith isn't worth much without works. It dies if it ever truly existed.

You are now trying to derail this thread yourself by introducing another controversy? The Bible is composed of several books, I'd say, of varying degrees of inspiration. The Jews will even point out some of the "errors" in their books. Does it matter? Not that much to me -- to the pure all things are pure, and to the impure all things are impure. People who start off with impure ideas about God will wind up worse off after reading the Bible than before if they are so vain about their intellect that they do not allow themselves to be corrected by what they read. People will say all scripture (and they mean by that the entire Bible although Paul used the word to refer to the Old Testament elsewhere) is inspired, profitable for reproof and correction -- but goodness sakes, that couldn't mean they need any correction, could it?

Who reads the Bible to find out where they are wrong? People usually read it thinking they can mine truths out of it or divine the future. I repeat the bit about unlearning things -- the best way to get to the truth is by rejecting mistaken ideas as impossible when you can see they are in error. Reading the Bible with the goal of being corrected is the best way to read it in my opinion. "Oh Lord, correct me, not in thine anger."

Sherlock Holmes: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

The person who comes from a manmade tradition of interpreting the Bible will never break free of it unless he's willing to see where what he was taught is wrong.


I have been wondering about the "let there be lights" (666) "in the firmament of heaven (777) lately.

I think your purpose here is clear for all to see.

Thank you for participating.