What Keeps Us From Sinning In Heaven?

[BarneyFife]

So what happens to those who can't get into the city? They even tried to do so by force, but alas, God has the last say.
Revelation 20:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So who are these nations, gathered together at the end of the millenium? Who is this Gog and Magog? Well, there are differing opinions on that...possibly as many opinions as the sand of the sea mentioned above...but here's my take.
The 1000 years has book-ends. The first book-end, at the beginning of the 1000 years, is the second coming marked by the resurrection of the saints, and the change from mortality to immortality for all, including those alive at the time. It is at this time that Satan is bound having no further influence over the world...why? Because there's no-one here. Everyone who is worthy is in heaven, the rest, well they're dead.
See Revelation 20:1-3. (The bottomless pit spoken of here is the same Greek word that means abyss, the same abyss that described the earth before creation...dark, empty, lifeless. A void. After the final plagues, the planet is left a complete and utter ruin. It has likely shifted off axis after having been wholly shaken about ("like a cottage") , been pummeled by hailstones the size of small cars, unleashing radioactivity and pollution across the entire globe. It is uninhabitable.
Now see 1 Corinthians 51-55. This is the resurrection and the change.
2 Thessalonians 2 and 1 Thess. 4:15-18 describes the same event. Some would have to explain how all this took place before Pentecost...those who believe the second coming took place at that event.

So what takes place during that 1000 years...see Revelation 20:4.
Revelation 20:5 tells us that all the wicked (the rest of the dead not resurrected at the second coming...the first resurrection...se 20:6) are resurrected after the 1000 years are finished. At the same time as the raising of the wicked, Satan is loosed. Meaning he is no longer bound, having once again people to tempt and control as before, only now without restraint, and as mentioned above, leads those wicked in a futile attack on the new Jerusalem now descended from heaven to the earth. The same fire that comes down to destroy them all is what forms the lake of fire, which at that time cleanses the entire planet of all its 6000 years build up of man-made rebellion. Sin and sinners perish. SAlong with the devil and his angels.
Then from this empty now cleansed earth, we who are inside the city witness the creation of the new heaven and the new earth, wherein there shall be nothing to mar nor pollute or sully the new Eden. No sin...no death...no decay...no suffering.

Winner!!! Ding, Ding, Ding!!!

 

[BarneyFife]

It's intriguing that it is quicker to boil iced water than room temp. Okay @BarnyFife Sorry, promise, no more dismantling of thread topic.

There's dismantling and there's dismantling. No apology necessary.

 

[BarneyFife]

What and where heaven or the heavens are is related to the OP, is it not?

Not really, but at this point, it's Wild, Wild West.

 

[BarneyFife]

ah well sure, he is the "father of lies," but the point at the time anyway was to note that no lie can be Quoted, literally speaking

Fair enough

 

[BarneyFife]

It became Him for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in the redemption of the world to save sinners by the blood of the Lamb. The great sacrifice of the Son of God was neither too great nor too small to accomplish the work. In the wisdom of God it was complete; and the atonement made testifies to every son and daughter of Adam the immutability of God's law. The value of the law of Jehovah is to be estimated by the immense price that was paid in the death of the Son of God to maintain its sacredness.

The law of God is a transcript of His character; it portrays the nature of God. As in Christ we behold the brightness of His glory, the express image of His person, so also in the law the attributes of the Father are unfolded. Although the law is unchangeable, His having provided a means of salvation for the law-breaker does not in the least detract from the dignity of the character of God, since the penalty of man's transgression was borne by a divine Substitute. The Father Himself suffered with the Son; for "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." Man, with his human, finite judgment, cannot safely question the wisdom of God. Hence it is unbecoming for him to criticize the plan of salvation. Before the theme of redemption, let man lay his wisdom in the dust, and accept the plans of Him whose wisdom is infinite.

God grants men a probation in this world, that their principles may become firmly established in the right, thus precluding the possibility of sin in the future life, and so assuring the happiness and security of all. Through the atonement of the Son of God alone could power be given to man to establish him in righteousness, and make him a fit subject for heaven. The blood of Christ is the eternal antidote for sin. The offensive character of sin is seen in what it cost the Son of God in humiliation, in suffering and death. All the worlds behold in Him a living testimony to the malignity of sin, for in His divine form He bears the marks of the curse. He is in the midst of the throne as a Lamb that hath been slain. The redeemed will ever be vividly impressed with the hateful character of sin, as they behold Him who died for their transgressions. The preciousness of the Offering will be more fully realized as the blood-washed throng more fully comprehend how God has made a new and living way for the salvation of men, through the union of the human and the divine in Christ.

The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God. The plan of salvation, making manifest the justice and love of God, provides an eternal safeguard against defection in unfallen worlds, as well as among those who shall be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Our only hope is perfect trust in the blood of Him who can save to the uttermost all that come unto God by Him. The death of Christ on the cross of Calvary is our only hope in this world, and it will be our theme in the world to come.

Oh, we do not comprehend the value of the atonement! If we did, we would talk more about it. The gift of God in His beloved Son was the expression of an incomprehensible love. It was the utmost that God could do to preserve the honor of His law, and still save the transgressor. Why should man not study the theme of redemption? It is the greatest subject that can engage the human mind. If men would contemplate the love of Christ, displayed in the cross, their faith would be strengthened to appropriate the merits of His shed blood, and they would be cleansed and saved from sin. There are many who will be lost, because they depend on legal religion, or mere repentance for sin. But repentance for sin alone cannot work the salvation of any soul. Man cannot be saved by his own works. Without Christ it is impossible for him to render perfect obedience to the law of God; and heaven can never be gained by an imperfect obedience; for this would place all heaven in jeopardy, and make possible a second rebellion.

 

[BarneyFife]

God saves man through the blood of Christ alone, and man's belief in, and allegiance to, Christ is salvation. It is no marvel to angels that the infinite sacrifice made by the Son of God was ample enough to bring salvation to a fallen race, but that this atoning sacrifice should have been made is a wonder to the universe. It is a mystery which angels desire to look into. The angels are amazed at the indifference and coldness manifested by those for whom so great a salvation has been provided. They look with grief and holy indignation upon those who do not seek to appreciate the unspeakable gift of God. Instead of offering adoration to God, finite men think themselves capable, without divine unction, of determining what is worthy of praise or blame in their fellow-men. But to be glorified by man is no glory. We should learn to value the praise of man at what it is worth.

The Lord says, "Them that honor me I will honor." Let every breath of praise, every word of exaltation, flow to Him who is worthy, flow to Jesus, the Prince of life, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Elevate the cross of Christ. Elevate the Mediator. Lift up Jesus. In Him is everything noble. Contemplate God in Christ. He is surrounded with angels, cherubim and seraphim continually behold Him. Angelic voices day and night cry before Him: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.... Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." "Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for all nations shall come and worship before thee." But although God only is holy and worthy to be praised, human tongues are perverted to praise and glorify man rather than God.

The greatest gift that God could bestow upon men was bestowed in the gift of His beloved Son. The apostle says, "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" There was nothing held in reserve. No second probation will ever be provided. If the unspeakable gift of God does not lead man to repentance, there is nothing that ever will move his heart. There is no power held in reserve to act upon his mind, and arouse his sensibilities. The whole character of God was revealed in His Son, the whole range of the possibilities of heaven is displayed for the acceptance of man in the Son of the Infinite One. The way for man's return to God and heaven has no barriers. The matchless depths of the Saviour's love have been demonstrated; and if this manifestation of God's love for the children of men does not prevail to draw men to Himself, there is nothing that ever will.

Those who will be saved in the kingdom of God will be those who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. The image of Christ will be perfected in every soul who accepts the gift of His grace, and those who are perfected through His grace, will stand before God equal in elevation, in power and purity, to the angels, and will be honored with them before the eternal throne. The angels of heaven will love those whom Christ has loved, and has bought with His own precious blood.

The attention of all the inhabitants of all worlds will be directed to the cross of Christ, around which will cluster the exceeding and eternal weight of glory. The imagination becomes exhausted in its stretch to comprehend the wonderful work of redemption. The plan of salvation is too high to be fully reached by human thought. It is too grand to be fully embraced by finite comprehension. The apostle says, "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." Can we wonder that Heaven is amazed because men act as though the gift of God were valueless? What will be the eternal loss of those who reject so great a salvation, offered freely through the merits of God's only-begotten and well-beloved Son!

 

[Waiting on him]

Winner!!! Ding, Ding, Ding!!!

2 Corinthians 5:16-17 KJV
[16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. [17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Revelation 21:4-6 KJV
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. [5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. [6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
How many times in your opinion does God make the new things new?

 

[Waiting on him]

Or how many times is it finished?

 

[Giuliano]

So what happens to those who can't get into the city? They even tried to do so by force, but alas, God has the last say.
Revelation 20:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So who are these nations, gathered together at the end of the millenium? Who is this Gog and Magog? Well, there are differing opinions on that...possibly as many opinions as the sand of the sea mentioned above...but here's my take.
The 1000 years has book-ends. The first book-end, at the beginning of the 1000 years, is the second coming marked by the resurrection of the saints, and the change from mortality to immortality for all, including those alive at the time. It is at this time that Satan is bound having no further influence over the world...why? Because there's no-one here. Everyone who is worthy is in heaven, the rest, well they're dead.
See Revelation 20:1-3. (The bottomless pit spoken of here is the same Greek word that means abyss, the same abyss that described the earth before creation...dark, empty, lifeless. A void. After the final plagues, the planet is left a complete and utter ruin. It has likely shifted off axis after having been wholly shaken about ("like a cottage") , been pummeled by hailstones the size of small cars, unleashing radioactivity and pollution across the entire globe. It is uninhabitable.
Now see 1 Corinthians 51-55. This is the resurrection and the change.
2 Thessalonians 2 and 1 Thess. 4:15-18 describes the same event. Some would have to explain how all this took place before Pentecost...those who believe the second coming took place at that event.

So what takes place during that 1000 years...see Revelation 20:4.

Why introduce all that into the mix?

Revelation 20:5 tells us that all the wicked (the rest of the dead not resurrected at the second coming...the first resurrection...se 20:6) are resurrected after the 1000 years are finished. At the same time as the raising of the wicked, Satan is loosed. Meaning he is no longer bound, having once again people to tempt and control as before, only now without restraint, and as mentioned above, leads those wicked in a futile attack on the new Jerusalem now descended from heaven to the earth.

You made that up. The Holy City does not appear on the earth until after the battle, until after Satan is loosed and defeated. There is no attack on the Holy City in chapters 21 and 22.

The same fire that comes down to destroy them all is what forms the lake of fire, which at that time cleanses the entire planet of all its 6000 years build up of man-made rebellion. Sin and sinners perish. SAlong with the devil and his angels.

You appear confused. If they are destroyed by fire that comes down from Heaven, how are they bound and cast into the Lake of Fire?

Then from this empty now cleansed earth, we who are inside the city witness the creation of the new heaven and the new earth, wherein there shall be nothing to mar nor pollute or sully the new Eden. No sin...no death...no decay...no suffering.

Yet we are told those "bad people" are still outside the Holy City in chapter 22.

You really are confused. The beast and false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire before the Thousand Year Reign begins.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Got that? Sinners and rebels are killed by the "sword" that comes from the mouth of Jesus -- before the 1000 years start. Satan is bound at that time too.

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The second resurrection comes after the 1000 years and then the final judgment. Satan is released, and there is a final battle. Fire comes down for those attacking where the saints are in Jerusalem.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

After that, the new Jerusalem is seen.

 

[amadeus]

Not really, but at this point, it's Wild, Wild West.

I know that your question related to 'sinning in heaven', but if there is more than one heaven, is it possible the answer is not the same for each of them? For me this could get complicated. It crosses over into another question with regard to Satan and God.

God does not sin or rebel. Why do we suppose His face could not be seen by Moses? [Ex 33:20] For a man to look on His face was death. What about Satan?

Don't try to answer these questions here and further disrupt your thread, but consider them. If there is enough interest perhaps we can start another thread on them. I have answers and questions myself. Some here probably would not like the questions or the answers I might present.

Give God the glory!

 

[Giuliano]

I don't do eternal torment. Call me Edward Fudge.

Don't try to dodge yet another question. You said there would be no more death or sinners. I presented you with a passage showing "bad people" outside the Holy City in Revelation 22. If you don't have an explanation, feel free to say so; if you have one, please give it. It is clear, isn't it, that those "bad people" are not suffering eternally the lake of fire if we are told they are outside the Holy City but can't enter it?

I think your purpose here is clear for all to see.

Thank you for participating.

We might make more progress in our discussions if you stopped talking about me and speculating about my motives. You introduced another topic into the thread; and I answered you. And I will repeat the idea: Many people treat the Bible the way Eve treated the words of God. People often think they do not need to pay attention. People can read a passage in the Bible and then mangle it when they try to explain it.

God said don't eat of that fruit, and Eve told the serpent God said not to touch it. How can we understand properly if we aren't willing to pay attention?

You are giving me some laughs however. You change the topic; and when I respond to you, you accuse me of having some hidden purpose? What?

 

[Waiting on him]

I know that your question related to 'sinning in heaven', but if there is more than one heaven, is it possible the answer is not the same for each of them? For me this could get complicated. It crosses over into another question with regard to Satan and God.

God does not sin or rebel. Why do we suppose His face could not be seen by Moses? [Ex 33:20] For a man to look on His face was death. What about Satan?

Don't try to answer these questions here and further disrupt your thread, but consider them. If there is enough interest perhaps we can start another thread on them. I have answers and questions myself. Some here probably would not like the questions or the answers I might present.

Give God the glory!

Judges 13:20-22 KJV
[20] For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground. [21] But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord. [22] And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

 

[Waiting on him]

We are to continually seek His face.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't do eternal torment. Call me Edward Fudge.

he who digs a pit for others to fall into ends up in it himself

 

[bbyrd009]

Faith isn't worth much without works. It dies if it ever truly existed.

You are now trying to derail this thread yourself by introducing another controversy? The Bible is composed of several books, I'd say, of varying degrees of inspiration. The Jews will even point out some of the "errors" in their books. Does it matter? Not that much to me -- to the pure all things are pure, and to the impure all things are impure. People who start off with impure ideas about God will wind up worse off after reading the Bible than before if they are so vain about their intellect that they do not allow themselves to be corrected by what they read. People will say all scripture (and they mean by that the entire Bible although Paul used the word to refer to the Old Testament elsewhere) is inspired, profitable for reproof and correction -- but goodness sakes, that couldn't mean they need any correction, could it?

Who reads the Bible to find out where they are wrong? People usually read it thinking they can mine truths out of it or divine the future. I repeat the bit about unlearning things -- the best way to get to the truth is by rejecting mistaken ideas as impossible when you can see they are in error. Reading the Bible with the goal of being corrected is the best way to read it in my opinion. "Oh Lord, correct me, not in thine anger."

Sherlock Holmes: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

The person who comes from a manmade tradition of interpreting the Bible will never break free of it unless he's willing to see where what he was taught is wrong.


I have been wondering about the "let there be lights" (666) "in the firmament of heaven (777) lately.

word

how did "let there be lights" come to 666 though? i missed that part i guess

 

[Giuliano]

I know that your question related to 'sinning in heaven', but if there is more than one heaven, is it possible the answer is not the same for each of them? For me this could get complicated. It crosses over into another question with regard to Satan and God.

God does not sin or rebel. Why do we suppose His face could not be seen by Moses? [Ex 33:20] For a man to look on His face was death. What about Satan?

Don't try to answer these questions here and further disrupt your thread, but consider them. If there is enough interest perhaps we can start another thread on them. I have answers and questions myself. Some here probably would not like the questions or the answers I might present.

Give God the glory!

There is something else that might fit into another thread. Eliphaz the Temanite said some wrong things in the book of Job. Was he right or wrong when he said:

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
19 How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?

Really? Can angels do foolish things sometimes? Perhaps they can.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

 

[bbyrd009]

Not really, but at this point, it's Wild, Wild West.

hmm, id argue those are central to the Q?

 

[bbyrd009]

Or how many times is it finished?

ha, how many seekers are there?

[16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

yet now henceforth we know Him no more hmm

 

[Waiting on him]

ha, how many seekers are there?

yet now henceforth we know Him no more hmm

They wanted the flesh pots, guessing that the manna wasn’t very palatable.

 

[amadeus]

We are to continually seek His face.

Yes, God told David to seek His face... yet what happened to the death decree of Ex 33:20?

We might find that people being led by and walking in the Spirit are being changed so that they can eventually see His face without dying. What about David?

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8

Does not Apostle Paul's writing put it within the realm of possibility [Heaven?]?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12