The Decoy Gospel

[CharismaticLady]

You understand being led by the Spirit...but have you walked in Zion?

So you mustn't limit the walk IN Christ as we are translated INTO the kingdom realm...to walk exactly as Jesus walked.

But look closely at the instructions of Jesus...

John 10: 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Also John in Rev.1 states that he was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. Now why say that if a person is ALWAYS IN the Spirit?

Then when all is done we will have no need to go out anymore...

Rev. 3:12 Him that overcomeswill I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

That is how I interpret Romans 8:9. So according to going in and out, sometimes we belong to Christ, and sometimes we don't?????????

 

[CharismaticLady]

Its not about you and @Candidus He didnt ask us to be like you did He, That is pride and boasting.

We are born again. If you're not, then you won't act born again, you'll sin.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

 

[farouk]

@farouk and @mjrhealthand @mailmandan

I asked Enoch these questions and would also like your answer. He thinks I'm a heretic.

@CharismaticLady Paul's letter to the Romans is indeed a great treatise on justification by faith in the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 3 speaks of imputed righteousness; we ourselves can never boast of our own sinlessness; it is rather the righteousness of God imputed to the sinner faith that is reckoned to the believer's account; Romans 4 shows that this imputed - rather than inherent - righteousness goes back to the example of Abraham.

 

[CharismaticLady]

@CharismaticLady Paul's letter to the Romans is indeed a great treatise on justification by faith in the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 3 speaks of imputed righteousness; we ourselves can never boast of our own sinlessness; it is rather the righteousness of God imputed to the sinner faith that is reckoned to the believer's account; Romans 4 shows that this imputed - rather than inherent - righteousness goes back to the example of Abraham.

Farouk, you are going to have to start reading past Romans 4 about the Old Covenant. Back then you could only have imputed righteousness, and our sins were merely covered by the blood of bulls and goats, but the sin remained. But Christ has made the way by giving us His sinless Spirit to dwell inside us, taking away our sin, which is the ministry of the Spirit to be righteous and holy. Romans 8:1-9; 2 Corinthians 3:6-11; Hebrews 12:14 "14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord"; Revelation 22:11

 

[Enoch111]

Farouk, you are going to have to start reading past Romans 4 about the Old Covenant.

More nonsense from CL. "Reading past Romans 4" for crying out loud!

So ask yourself honestly" "Am I justified by grace through faith or not?"

If you cannot answer that in the affirmative, then you do not know the ABCs of the Gospel.

 

[CharismaticLady]

More nonsense from CL. "Reading past Romans 4" for crying out loud!

So ask yourself honestly" "Am I justified by grace through faith or not?"

If you cannot answer that in the affirmative, then you do not know the ABCs of the Gospel.

Of course, but if you stop at Romans 4 or 5 you will never arrive at the New Covenant. I hope you read the whole post, instead of just the first sentence. Also, you never answered my last question to you.

 

[marks]

Romans 4
22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was reckoned unto him;
24 but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
25 who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.

 

[Episkopos]

That is how I interpret Romans 8:9. So according to going in and out, sometimes we belong to Christ, and sometimes we don't?????????

Now you are sounding like the other sort of reasoners.

Why do God's ways always have to line up with a person's way of thinking?

Paul describes it as being present with the Lord or absent from Him. Like going for a walk.

Are we always with our spouses?

Yet we are to remain faithful.

So if we are not with our spouse for a certain day or week...are we still married?

Do you see that God can leave us (actually we depart) for a time to see what we will do?

It is in fact necessary to come in and out in order to grow. Like breathing in and out. It's way to both be with the Lord and also become mature. If we were always in the Spirit we would just hang on the cross in ourselves an never DO anything from ourselves.

It's like watching the way a master does something...and then learning to do it ourselves. So then maturity comes about BOTH from how to remain in Christ...but also how to be His fully even when we are not face to face.

It's the lesson of faithfulness.

 

[marks]

Romans 5
8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath [of God] through him.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;
11 and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

 

[marks]

Do you see that God can leave us (actually we depart) for a time to see what we will do?

. . . for he has promised, I will never leave you nor forsake you . . .

 

[Episkopos]

More nonsense from CL. "Reading past Romans 4" for crying out loud!

So ask yourself honestly" "Am I justified by grace through faith or not?"

If you cannot answer that in the affirmative, then you do not know the ABCs of the Gospel.

But you are defining the formula with your human spin. We are made righteous by HIS power in us by faith making us to walk in His victory in this world. He becomes OUR life, holiness and perfection. That is what grace does. It empowers us. Grace is the power of God usward who believe.

 

[marks]

But you are defining the formula with your human spin.

So ask yourself honestly" "Am I justified by grace through faith or not?"

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Candidus]

Romans 3 speaks of imputed righteousness; we ourselves can never boast of our own sinlessness; it is rather the righteousness of God imputed to the sinner faith that is reckoned to the believer's account; Romans 4 shows that this imputed - rather than inherent - righteousness goes back to the example of Abraham.

Nonsense, character cannot be transferred. Nothing in the word "impute" means to transfer character. Simply said, your version of imputation is a theological fiction.

 

[Candidus]

Are we instantly perfect? Of course not.

On what do you base this? That same aorist tense that describes our argument for instant justification is applied to the grace of sanctification in Scripture. As I have stated, too many people confuse purity and maturity.

Scripture speaks of those that are justified now. It also speaks of those that are sanctified now. And also to those that are perfect/complete now.

Are we instantly mature? Again no. So no doubt if we live long enough we will fall from that presence and sin. Our sheer ignorance will guarantee that over time.

We do not age out of sin, and neither do we grow into grace, but we can grow in grace.

Maturity is a strange thing because it is relative. I can say that someone is a mature Christian, yet someone else may see them as not as mature as some other Christian. We can say that someone is mature now.. and still say that they continue to mature. Purity however, does not change, because you are either pure or impure. Our capacity can grow as God gives light. I see the two as very distinctive.

So I do believe in perfection...and have known that perfection. But that perfection is in no man...but Christ. As we abide IN Him we partake of His holiness, His life, His perfection.

Somehow this gets lost in translation. People think that perfection, holiness and sanctification are somehow the work of the believer, and seem fixated on insisting that it is not the grace of God working in and through the believer.

 

[marks]

it would make a definition of sin to be utterly unavoidable, even by breathing imperfectly. Scripture says that we can avoid sin, so if we cast the net so broad, many passages become self-contradictory or impossible commands. If we have a good Biblical working definition of sin, it will not contradict many of the 41 instances if "sin" as a verb in the New Testament.

This has a lot to do with my understanding of love being the fulfillment of the Law, and how it make moot any observance of the Law, that is, aside from simple obedience to Jesus Christ, which is to live out the law of love.

I've seen people try to parse sin into this kind of sin and that kind of sin, to my understanding, everything that has it's origin in the flesh is sin, and everything that is from the new creation is righteousness.

This fellow on a forum years ago insisted of his complete sinlessness, in all that could mean, even while displaying himself in his posts. Another fellow on another forum speaks of having been basically "taken over" by God, so that he was sinless for an extended time.

In my life I've seen where God does this as He chooses, but what I've seen from that is all we need is trust Him in this new reality of reconciliation.

Purity and maturity are different. One can be limited in knowledge, yet be pure. Maturity takes time and progresses. Just because God purifies and sanctifies and individual, they can still be completely obedient to God as far as they know, yet God may convict them of that sin at a later date. They were not "sinning" in the realm of knowledge and rebellious action, yet they may have been violating something that God said was sin, but they did not know it. The issue is knowledge and motive, yet I would never say that those so-called sin, or violations did not need the ever-present Atonement or Jesus Christ to keep them reconciled to God. No one, in and of themselves, can purify their own hearts apart from the Holy Spirit working that grace within them.

This is a good distinction I think, purity and maturity. To the pure all things are pure, but as we mature, things that were pure to us cease to be so. We become more focused on God, and that which edifies.

I really like the way you talk about this. Not consciously sinning, and so without the consciousness of sin, yet that does not mean I'm justified, simply because it's not on my radar!

And the blood of Jesus Christ is cleansing us of all sin.

And like you say, God will instruct us in His time in His way, and we can trust Him for that, removing the burden from ourselves, leaving us to just more forward in our reconciliation to our Heavenly Father.

That is why I consider it a strawman argument.

Understood!

I have never seen or met a person that thought that they were God, perfect as God, or never sinned in the sense of absolute Divine Perfection. Ironically. however, I do see those that claim that they do not sin in spirit, and that sin is only in the flesh, when applied to Christian doctrine, is nothing more that sugar-coated fiction from the heresy of Gnosticism.

So, I have run across it, but I think you are right, that in general this is something people aren't really thinking of that way, in the since of actually being exactly like God is, like you say here.

On this part, "those that claim that they do not sin in the spirit", are you meaning that sin can come from the new creation? And it occurs to me, perhaps we have different ideas on what rebirth is, and justification?



Much love!

 

[marks]

and neither do we grow into grace, but we can grow in grace.

Hi Candidus,

Would you elaborate on the difference between growing into grace and growing in grace?

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Now you are sounding like the other sort of reasoners.

Why do God's ways always have to line up with a person's way of thinking?

Paul describes it as being present with the Lord or absent from Him. Like going for a walk.

Are we always with out spouses?

Yet we are to remain faithful.

So if we are not with our spouse for a certain day or week...are we still married?

Do you see that God can leave us (actually we depart) for a time to see what we will do?

It is in fact necessary to come in and out in order to grow. Like breathing in and out. It's way to both be with the Lord and also become mature. If we were always in the Spirit we would just hang on the cross in ourselves an never DO anything from ourselves.

It's like watching the way a master does something...and then learning to do it ourselves. So then maturity comes about BOTH from how to remain in Christ...but also how to be His fully even when we are not face to face.

It's the lesson of faithfulness.

I've heard someone say what you said, or their version of what you said, a long time ago. Years in fact, and it started me thinking a lot about it, and thinking back on my own experience with the Spirit. And after many years, I finally am satisfied that He will never leave me, and I have been abiding in Him, and He in me ever since. I hear his voice regularly.

I understand where you are coming from, and that is a good way to look at it too, but I must go with what I believe the Spirit revealed to me. E, what is important is that we have both been baptized with the Spirit and as a result been born again. Love you, brother!

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos said: ↑
Are we instantly perfect? Of course not.

• On what do you base this? That same aorist tense that describes our argument for instant justification is applied to the grace of sanctification in Scripture. As I have stated, too many people confuse purity and maturity.

My mistake...I meant perfected...mature.

I agree purity and maturity.

I was thinking of this verse when I wrote down the word perfect...

Phil. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Better said as perfected...

 

[Candidus]

Episkopos said: ↑
Are we instantly perfect? Of course not.

• On what do you base this? That same aorist tense that describes our argument for instant justification is applied to the grace of sanctification in Scripture. As I have stated, too many people confuse purity and maturity.

My mistake...I meant perfected...mature.

I agree purity and maturity.

I was thinking of this verse when I wrote down the word perfect...

Phil. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Better said as perfected...

I constantly have to go back after a while and discover my typos, double negatives, and other errors!
For some odd reason my fingers do not transmit what I think my brain is saying!

 

[Candidus]

Hi Candidus,

Would you elaborate on the difference between growing into grace and growing in grace?

Much love!

Once again, we come upon some word that Christians all use, yet their meaning may be different.

A large portion of the disagreements people have are because they think that they are speaking of the same thing, and are frustrated because the other person comes up with a conclusion that just does not make any sense with their definition. One example would be what does a Mormon mean by justification. How would a Roman Catholic see it? In many cases, it "sounds" like you are discussing the same thing, yet you are actually saying something different.

Grace is one of those words that people believe that they have a good grasp of its meaning, yet know very little about it. I know that you are a student of the Bible and like to read. You probably have several Bible Encyclopedias and Dictionaries. Look up "Grace" and may be surprised at how such a central theme to everything in the New Testament gets so little explanation! The ISBE Revised only has about 5 pages dedicated to the subject. It just seems like something so essentially connected to sin and salvation would get more press.

Grace is God's favor; and in most cases it is unmerited favor. The Greek just means "favor" on its own. Grace is God giving us something we do not deserve, contrasted with Mercy, which is God withholding what we deserve. Sometimes the line between the two get convoluted by some.

Here is the kicker... Grace is not a "thing." Many speak of Grace as something that is given or possessed. When we hear of God giving grace, the passage usually tells us what He gives. People view grace as a "gift" in itself, but I believe this is wrong.
This idea of grace being the "gift" is based upon an erroneous interpretation of Ephesians 2:8.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

What is the "gift" in this passage? Some will declare it to be "grace," and not see what "grace" is conveying. The "gift" in the passage here is "salvation," which is applied by "grace" through the condition of "faith."
"For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ or Lord." (Rom. 6:23). Here we see the "gift" is eternal life- not grace. "But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded to many." (Rom. 5:15). The gift is by grace; it is not grace. So, when we speak of "Grace" we should try to determine what "favor" God is conveying to us. What grace/favor is God conveying to us?

One has to be in a "grace" in order to grow in it. As an example: salvation.

When one gets saved, they have received Eternal Life/Salvation. While I believe that God can draw people in stages with "Grace" to see and understand, before He offers the grace of salvation, people do not graduate "into" salvation. Either you are saved, or you are not. The Bible does not present salvation in such a progressive way. Sanctification is the work of God. While there may be progress towards complete sanctification, a process, Scripture speaks of this as a work of God, just like salvation.

Either way, we do not grow into any grace, but from that grace. Growth will not save us, nor purify our hearts. When God conveys that "grace," we can then grow "in" that grace.

Human illustrations are always flawed, but humor the example:

A glass of impure contaminated water can be made progressively less contaminated, yet we do not possess the ability to make it absolutely pure. We are corrupt and impure on our own and cannot grow it into pure water in and of ourselves. God must do it.

Once God has made this glass of pure water, you cannot make it more pure, but you can increase the capacity of the container as more pure water is available.

We cannot consider grace to be a thing, or an entity which could be given as a gift. Many have confused the vehicle of blessings for the blessing itself.