Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[john t]

Who said they couldn't be tormented while they are alive? <SNIP irrelevant content>

EVERYTHING I posted was a summary of what Scripture clearly stated. Yet you quibble about it at your peril.

Also, your quibbling negates the claim that you and the SDA cult get their doctrines from the Bible. Yep, you have been in a cult for 30 years.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes!!
You don't understand the judgment for Life in John 3:18, for we who are *"condemned (judged) ALREADY".

*In comparison, see KJV Genesis 3:22 of the first judgment, which is eternal death.

I understand the "condemned already." But have you seen anywhere that after Adam sinned and cursed the earth with death, was that physical death or that his spirit died and became mortal.

I'm asking because I've looked for the state of our spirit to be immortal or mortal and haven't found anything, except after salvation our spirit become immortal and taken on eternal life.

 

[john t]

Talk about your ad hominem. All I had to do is reveal my denominational identity and you just couldn't resist, could you?

You call it "venom" I call it truth.

The theology of the SDA church cannot stand in the light of testing by Scripture in its context because it is a theology of darkness creating a works-centered false salvation by obeying the stupid rules of Ellen White.

I post Scripture when I dismantle SCA theology. But you are unable to counter the plain teachings of Scripture in context. That demonstrated that the SDA church is indeed a cult

Since you began this thread with this

Not really an invitation to slam Mr. Fudge. I just wondered how many proponents of annihilationism we have on board.

you have no grounds for complaint, since that is a mostly SDA belief. That is called "having a double standard"

In other words the remainder to this thread is due to you opening the door for discussion of SDA doctrine. You are reaping what you sow.

 

[Earburner]

1. Demons get tormented and they are alive
Matthew 8:29
Suddenly they shouted, “What do You have to do with us, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

Mark 5:7
And he cried out with a loud voice, “What do You have to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You before God, don’t torment me!”

2. Humans on earth can get tormented by demons
2 Corinthians 12:7
especially because of the extraordinary revelations. Therefore, so that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to torment me so I would not exalt myself.

3. Humans in Hades get tormented, therefore they are alive
Luke 16:23
And being in torment in Hades, he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off, with Lazarus at his side.

Luke 16:28
because I have five brothers—to warn them, so they won’t also come to this place of torment.

4. Humans on Earth will get tormented by demons before Christ returns
Revelation 9:5
They were not permitted to kill them but were to torment them for five months; their torment is like the torment caused by a scorpion when it strikes a man.

5. The torture of humans in Hades never stops, and they are forever alive
Revelation 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 18:7
As much as she glorified herself and lived luxuriously,give her that much torment and grief,for she says in her heart,“I sit as a queen;I am not a widow,and I will never see grief.”

Revelation 18:10
They will stand far off in fear of her torment, saying:Woe, woe, the great city,Babylon, the mighty city!For in a single hour your judgment has come

All Scripture from HCSB

6. THEREFORE:
the torture of humans and demons in Hades never ceases according to the Bible, and that is the ultimate authority

All references that I make or refer to are from the KJV.
1. Agreed
2. Agreed
3. DIsagree- hades, sheol and hell is the grave, aka the pit. They are in the earth, and you should know that this earth is NOT eternal, nor shall it be saved or made over. See 2 Peter 3: 10-12 "...the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
4. Agreed, but its been going for a while now. Probably ever since the mid 1800's, ever since Satan was loosed, from being bound by Jesus, on the day of His Crucifixion/Resurrection. (You probably will have questions about that).
5. DIsagree.
A. The torment of humans STOPS in the day that the graves (hell, hades, sheol) are burned up in the lake of fire.
B. No man was ever given an eternal soul, however God did say that "man became a living soul". Yes, they have no rest in the time of our day or night of 24 hours. How many periods of "day or night" there shall be allowed, will be as long as God allows it, for as it is said in 2 Peter 3 the Heavens
C. Yes! All who do take the MoB will suffer the vengeance of God's consuming fire, upon the Day of Christ's return in
Flaming Fire. While Jesus/God is physically present and visible, in all His Glory, in flaming fire, from Heaven in the atmoshere, everything that will burn and can burn, SHALL BURN!!
D. No, their torment doesn't ascend forever, but rather only the results of them burning up in torment, until there is nothing left to burn, by which is what the "smoke' signifies. Like smoke rising up into the atmosphere, it disipates into nothingness, until its gone.

 

[Earburner]

1. I understand the "condemned already." But have you seen anywhere that after Adam sinned and cursed the earth with death, was that physical death or that his spirit died and became mortal.

2. I'm asking because I've looked for the state of our spirit to be immortal or mortal and haven't found anything, except after salvation our spirit become immortal and taken on eternal life.

1. Adam was not created as eternal in any way. Just like an animal, he had no eternal existence of any kind.
"Man became a living soul".
The Hebrew word for "soul" is "nephesh",
Which means "animal life".
The "breath of life" is oxygenated air, and that's all it is. Animals that breathe, breathe it too! See Genesis 7:21-22.
Thousands of years of "religious spin" has corrupted the true understanding of what "soul" is.
2. Absolutely correct, as to The Holy Spirit of God deposited within us through faith, but as for man having a spirit (as if given by God), thats still the same "religious spin". Don't you see that its a derailment from what I just said in item #1? Man didn't suddenly have an improved understanding, just because the NT was written in Greek. Their religious concept of "soul", was only enhanced by using another religious word, "spirit".
But if we must go with that, lets call it "the ability to reason" our "conscious thinking", "grey matter" or simply "the way of our going".
Though this is hard for most to think about, God is not involved with the natural birth of anyone who is "from beneath". We are all generated from "seed".

 

[CharismaticLady]

1. Adam was not created as eternal in any way. Just like an animal, he had no eternal existence of any kind.
"Man became a living soul".
The Hebrew word for "soul" is "nephesh",
Which means "animal life".
The "breath of life" is oxygenated air, and that's all it is. Animals that breathe, breathe it too! See Genesis 7:21-22.
Thousands of years of "religious spin" has corrupted the true understanding of what "soul" is.
2. Absolutely correct, as to The Holy Spirit of God deposited within us through faith, but as for man having a spirit (as if given by God), thats still the same "religious spin". Don't you see that its a derailment from what I just said in item #1? Man didn't suddenly have an improved understanding, just because the NT was written in Greek. Their religious concept of "soul", was only enhanced by using another religious word, "spirit".
But if we must go with that, lets call it "the ability to reason" our "conscious thinking", "grey matter" or simply "the way of our going".
Though this is hard for most to think about, God is not involved with the natural birth of anyone who is "from beneath". We are all generated from "seed".

What do you think is actually coming back with the Lord when their body is still in the ground in 1 Thessalonians 4:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Going to bed.

 

[Enoch111]

No, their torment doesn't ascend forever, but rather only the results of them burning up in torment, until there is nothing left to burn, by which is what the "smoke' signifies. Like smoke rising up into the atmosphere, it disipates into nothingness, until its gone.

THIS IS CALLED FANTASIZING. NOT EXEGESIS.

 

[Brakelite]

...likely being the operative phrase there?

I know of an absolute certainty... Even absolutely truthfully... That what I don't know is infinitely more than what I do know.

 

[Brakelite]

Is it justice to have a Hitler or a Stalin getting same ending as a Grandma who refused Jesus as her Lord

My point precisely. Eternal torment has them suffering the same. In the same fire for the same time.
Annihilation as Adventists teach it, has them suffering for a varying time according to their works... Some with many stripes, some with less... And each individual will expire, die, after true justice is served.
So no, it isn't just that Stalin should be punished equally with anyone's grams who didn't know Jesus. And therefore such won't happen.

 

[Brakelite]

So death means living on somehow? That's now what the word death means.

According to spiritualism, the occult, and every false pagan religion I can think of such as Hinduism and Buddhism etc, that is precisely what death means.

 

[bbyrd009]

How can a living sacrifice be bloodless, when "the life of the flesh is in the blood"? Without blood flowing through your circulatory system, you would be dead as a doornail.

bbyrd009, you are still THOROUGHLY CONFUSED about spiritual matters, the reason being that you try to deliberately distort the truth.

"the life of the flesh is in the blood" is the establishment of law, pEnoch, and i guess a living sacrifice might not always be bloodless, but it is after all "living" right. And fwiw i didnt write Esau ok. Have a good day

 

[Brakelite]

And I'll say it again:

READ THEIR OFFICIAL WORDS

Twice I posted from their own official sources. No matter how many times you want to "correct me" If you have a beef about those words, then take it with your denominational people who write that stuff. The only "beef" you have with me is that I used the words approved by Silver Springs.

They published it so deal with them.

I've been an Adventist for 23 years. I know exactly what the church teaches on this topic, and I happen to agree with it. I think it is you who needs to read what they teach... It is you who is pretending to understand Adventist teachings better than the Adventists on those forum.

 

[bbyrd009]

Humans in Hades get tormented, therefore they are alive

problem with that is that its warped on its face; there is no punishment in Hades' mythology. Hades is a Greek god, and we might do better to ask why He is in our Bibles anyway. It becomes another tree blocking our view of the forest imo

 

[Giuliano]

THIS IS CALLED FANTASIZING. NOT EXEGESIS.

Not really. If you read the verse in question, it doesn't say they are tormented forever. It says the smoke of their torment goes up forever.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The mention of rest should call into mind that the Thousand Year Reign corresponds to the 7th day of Genesis.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Who finds rest?

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Unclean spirits are described as not finding rest.

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

Those who do not find rest during the Millennium never shall, but that does not mean God is going to torture them eternally.

 

[bbyrd009]

I once looked to see if the expression blood of Jesus existed in the Bible. It occurs once -- at least that's all I could find. The rest of the time it's either blood of Christ or the blood of Jesus the Christ.

well, being referenced, yes, but none being witnessed, right
except for the piercing of His side, where a more ambiguous term is used, could be blood, could be "bodily fluids" right

 

[bbyrd009]

Is it justice to have a Hitler or a Stalin getting same ending as a Grandma who refused Jesus as her Lord

this is wadr what happens when you let dead ppl teach the Bible imo
Christ came that we might have life, more abundantly, right
this concept of reward or punishment after death is totally pagan imo, and i suggest the Bible suggests some of that strictly as a mechanism to hide wisdom from the wise, and that It is not talking about any literal "after death" scenario at all

 

[bbyrd009]

I know of an absolute certainty... Even absolutely truthfully... That what I don't know is infinitely more than what I do know.

i guess i should make that clear myself; for all i know Jesus will literally Return Tomorrow and we will all get to heaven at that time. That would render the Bible into garbage so i doubt it, but i dont know

 

[Giuliano]

According to spiritualism, the occult, and every false pagan religion I can think of such as Hinduism and Buddhism etc, that is precisely what death means.

I have studied Hinduism and Buddhism. Both say the physical body dies but the spirit continues to live. Buddhists say some can go to sleep.

Some spirits are half asleep spiritually while in human bodies and are unaware of being spirits. When the body dies, they figure they'll go out of existence, so they go to sleep. That was so common in the Old Testament times, that sleeping became a synonym for the body dying.

There's even confusion about it in the New Testament. The disciples didn't understand what Jesus meant by sleep, so he finally had to use the word dead.

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Keep that firmly in mind when reading the rest of the story. Jesus was not lying or mistaken. Lazarus was not sick unto death. His body was however.

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

 

[Giuliano]

well, being referenced, yes, but none being witnessed, right
except for the piercing of His side, where a more ambiguous term is used, could be blood, could be "bodily fluids" right

Ah, I almost mentioned the blood and water from his side but thought my post was already too long.

When Jesus lived on the earth, spiritually he was both male and female the way the original Man, h'adam, was. Remember Eve was taken from the side of the man? (It's a myth she was formed from a rib.) Jesus was divided too: The female half came from his side to form the Bride of Christ or the church while the male half returned to Heaven as a "male." The female half then had other children.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I think people are mistaken then if they believe they are "connected" to the Body of Christ by being directly connected to the Head. I became connected to the Body of Christ by having an attachment to other humans who were already members of the Body.