Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[Brakelite]

Cult is meant to be a "dirty word", as it describes a group or church that claims to be Christian. and yet is not!

So because several of us here are Adventists,, therefore being a cult according to your definition, we are not Christians. So correct church membership now is a criteria for salvation? But only with YeshuaFan's approval?

 

[Brakelite]

are you saying God did not became a man ?

The scripture actually says that God's Son became a man.

 

[amadeus]

So because several of us here are Adventists,, therefore being a cult according to your definition, we are not Christians. So correct church membership now is a criteria for salvation? But only with YeshuaFan's approval?

Even the word, Christian, at times may cause trouble.

If your actions and reactions along with your explanations or lack of explanations do not fit the criteria for their definition of a Christian, then for them, I guess you would not be a Christian, even if God disagrees. I sure would not want to fall into the hands of the Living God because I rebuked someone because he did not precisely fit my definition. Not being too insistent that my definition is correct when discussing it with others as long as I am living for God by faith rather than by knowledge might be a good idea, don't you think? There is that AT [Absolute Truth] problem again!

 

[Brakelite]

An observation.

Most who have participated in this discussion are in favor of Eternal torment. Seriously... Actually in favor. Not just agreeing with the doctrine, but actually morally and intellectually approving and supporting the concept as a just and terrific way to solve the problem of sinners. Burn them!!!
And they're okay with that. Why are they okay with that? Because they believe God is okay with it. They believe that God is literally one who has devised the system of Eternal torment because it satisfies His sense of justice. (Although justice can never be fully served can it when it is necessary for the punishment to be ongoing. Even life imprisonment comes to an end and thus fulfils the need for justice... But eternal torment cannot be said to be just because it never gets to a point where it's satisfied... But I digress).
So you think this is the nature of the God you love. Is this why the majority of Christian conservatives are now expressing so much hatred toward those who now disagree with their politics? At one time not so long ago the enemy to the Christian right was Islam. Now it's communist sympathisers, socialists, and anyone who thinks black lives matter. They are anarchists... Enemies to law and order... Why? Because they believe they are also enemies to God. Well, I have news for you.
God loves them. You may think that shooting them in the streets and arming yourselves with weapons is the Christian response to violence and hatred. Sorry, but your nation is not your God. And abusing and attacking people who disagree with you is not God's way. You are taking upon yourselves a spirit you believe is godly and reflects who you believe God to be based on your view that if God can torment people for ever then so can you. That spirit is not the Spirit of God.
Love you enemies.
Do good to them that hate you and persecute you.
Pray for those who despitefully use you.
You are allowing your warped view of God color your politics, and the way you are treating others in this discussion.

 

[BarneyFife]

An observation.

Most who have participated in this discussion are in favor of Eternal torment. Seriously... Actually in favor. Not just agreeing with the doctrine, but actually morally and intellectually approving and supporting the concept as a just and terrific way to solve the problem of sinners. Burn them!!!
And they're okay with that. Why are they okay with that? Because they believe God is okay with it. They believe that God is literally one who has devised the system of Eternal torment because it satisfies His sense of justice. (Although justice can never be fully served can it when it is necessary for the punishment to be ongoing. Even life imprisonment comes to an end and thus fulfils the need for justice... But eternal torment cannot be said to be just because it never gets to a point where it's satisfied... But I digress).
So you think this is the nature of the God you love. Is this why the majority of Christian conservatives are now expressing so much hatred toward those who now disagree with their politics? At one time not so long ago the enemy to the Christian right was Islam. Now it's communist sympathisers, socialists, and anyone who thinks black lives matter. They are anarchists... Enemies to law and order... Why? Because they believe they are also enemies to God. Well, I have news for you.
God loves them. You may think that shooting them in the streets and arming yourselves with weapons is the Christian response to violence and hatred. Sorry, but your nation is not your God. And abusing and attacking people who disagree with you is not God's way. You are taking upon yourselves a spirit you believe is godly and reflects who you believe God to be based on your view that if God can torment people for ever then so can you. That spirit is not the Spirit of God.
Love you enemies.
Do good to them that hate you and persecute you.
Pray for those who despitefully use you.
You are allowing your warped view of God color your politics, and the way you are treating others in this discussion.

We shall have to gather warmth from the coldness of others.

 

[Brakelite]

 

[john t]

She never predicted that, no. She believed He would return in 1844 when she was 17 years old, but she didn't make the prediction.

No, but she DID prophesy that Great Britain would enter our Civil War on the side of the South. That proves her to be a false prophet, and according to the penalty listed in Deuteronomy, she should have been stones. False prophecy is the same as making God into a liar

 

[john t]

Thank you! I don't know about the JWs, but I do not believe the Mormon and SDA teach that only their members may be saved.

Perhaps that is a rule written into their official doctrines, but with the SDA on this and other forums I have never heard such a thing.

On the Mormons my only full brother was a Mormon for many years and I also used to regularly converse with many of their door to door missionaries. They did not believe that only practicing connected Mormons could be saved.

From working with the LDS folk on another site, I found that the "mishies" are taught to lie and evade when they go out on their missions. Even though they may presently call themselves, (Christians" (according to their own definition) the history.

What many do not know is that during the "Mormon Wars" they took up arms against the people if Missouri because they wanted to turn the state into a Mormon theocracy because Joe Smith said that was where Eden was. They started ALL the shooting, and lost all of the "wars".

That is the reason why Governor Boggs made the Mormon Expulsion Order

from Wikipedia:

In October 1833, anti-Mormon mobs drove the Mormons from Jackson County. At that time, opponents of the Mormons used a pattern that would be repeated four times, culminating in the expulsion of the Mormons from the entire state.​

To hear them tell it, they were all peaceful people and that is prima facie evidence that the Mormons are taught to lie about things detrimental to their history

But that is really a background post, not intended as a derail

 

[john t]

In someone's opinion! But what does God have to say about it? He who looks at the heart of a man without regard to all of the absolute "truths" people have found that were not where Jesus was...!

What does Scripture say about that?

John 3:

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.​

I see that Jesus said nothing about a man's heart here. The SDAs require that its adherents ALSO follow the words of their "prophetess", Ellen to merit salvation. Couldn't make salvation more simple. In adding Ellen's words to salvation they bastardize (not a swear word) God's plam and make make into a meritocracy, far removed from grace.

 

[Giuliano]

Yeah, "I AM THAT I AM."

I get hiding wisdom from the wise but I don't think God is into obfuscation for its own sake, do you?

Using words can be a form of obfuscation. I see people are bandying the word "cult" around in this thread. People have a tendency to want to label and categorize things. Words can be helpful, generally speaking, but they are inexact and approximate. If I say "chair" to you, you have no idea what color it is, how big it is, what it's made of, what shape it is. If you visited me and I pointed to a chair and said, "You can sit in that chair if you like," your mind takes the word "chair" and you direct your attention in the direction I pointed. When you see the chair for yourself, you know exactly what I meant. Your mind can fill in many details once you perceive the reality of the chair for yourself. If you can't see it, no amount of speculation, no amount of extra words, will produce the precise picture of actually seeing it for yourself. The best you can do is to invent a mental picture in your mind of what I meant by "chair."

Chairs exist with conditions applying. For something to be a chair, it has to meet certain conditions in reality. If an object meets those conditions, we say, "Yes, I'd call that a chair." If it doesn't meet those conditions, we say, "I don't think that is a chair."

God exists unconditionally. Nothing caused Him to exist, He would exist if nothing else existed. Where no conditions exist, words are inadequate since our human wants always want to categorize, classify and put in boxes. God Is. The "absolute truth" does not have any noun following that, no description, nothing. The second you add a noun or description, you've introduced an error of some sort, perhaps small, perhaps huge.

Now while God exists without conditions, I believe He can act interact with creation within time and space. Such actions do not define God however.
I even object to the Catholic idea (carried on by many Protestants) that God has a "'substance." The idea makes me laugh in fact. Substance implies for me something tangible, something I can pin down or weigh, analyze scientifically. The idea that God is a person or three persons leaves me gasping; and the history of how that came about may be worth examining.

At first, the decree of one of the Ecumenical Councils was that God had three personae. That I can agree with since persona in Greek means a mask or a role in a drama. Not three persons, but three masks or personae. God relates to us three ways wearing three different masks. The Catholic theologians weren't always the best with Greek and made that into three persons. God may take on the role a person, appearing to humans as a person -- or as three persons as He did with Abraham -- but such appearances should not lead us into believing what we see is actually God Himself. Hagar thought that! An angel appeared to her, and she said she had seen God. Yet it is true in another way that if you see an angel you have "seen" God -- since Hebrew is like English in that "see" can mean both "view with the eyes" or "perceive the reality of."

Angels are manifestations of God. So while you're not seeing God in His totality, you saw a minute fraction of something which convinced you that God is real, He truly exists. I have "seen" God in some of my fellow human beings. That does not make them "God" however. I am reluctatnt ot discuss visions, but I once saw Jesus in Glory so bright I could not bear to look. I still would not say Jesus is God. I saw God in him however; and that is all the God I expect to see.

The various manifestations of God within time and space do not define God for me. God exists independently of both time and space. Time and space are part of the creation. God is eternal, not subject to time and space. So a particular manifestation of God might cease to exist within time and space, but that could not mean God died. Indeed, the problem with mankind is that the Divine Fire went out. It is said God is a fire and also that angels are fire. Man was also meant to have fire -- but the Sacred Flames went out. Thus the Holy Spirit as a fire needed to be rekindled. Every man, woman and child could become part of how God manifests in the universe. God can fill them all. It would be a mistake however to say that someone is God Himself because he has the Holy Spirit.

 

[Taken]

The scripture actually says that God's Son became a man.

Uh...no.

God CAN NOT Change.
God is Spirit.
He can appear in any likeness He Chooses.
He chose to Appear the Likeness as a man.
Men will one day Appear in His Likeness.
But men will not Become God, just as God will not become a CREATED Earthly human.

Phil 2
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

So because several of us here are Adventists,, therefore being a cult according to your definition, we are not Christians. So correct church membership now is a criteria for salvation? But only with YeshuaFan's approval?

Cult can be either of the following.(A-B)
If people call their own group a Cult, that's their business.

When people call another group a Cult, it is typically an expression of their Opinion and is not required to be a fact.

Don't worry about it...you know what you accept and doesn't matter IF others do or do not.


* A) a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

* B) a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.

• Glory to God,
• Taken

 

[Earburner]

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
(Revelation 21:8)

Here you go Barney, all wrapped up in a nutshell:
John 6[29] Jesus answered and said unto them [Jews], This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Now, for all who DO NOT do the work of God, to believe ONLY in Jesus, this is who they are:
Luke 13[27] But he shall say, I tell you,
I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

How is it that Jesus shall not know them?
Romans 8[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Did you happen to notice that sin and Law keeping is NOT the issue about God's Salvation, but rather those who do have the indwelling Spirit of God within them.

So, if one does not have the literal PERSON of the Holy Spirit WITHIN them, then they are none of his, no matter how much Law keeping they have done!
So therefore, THEY are the "workers of iniquity", even though they profess His salvation!!
WHY?
They are still "in the flesh", having NOT the Spirit of God! They never converted by His Holy Spirit. Conversion by or through Religion is nothing!
Iows, False apostles, teachers, pastors etc. can preach the Bible all day long, but if God is not within them, they are only operative through their religion and their OWN religious ways. They are living a sham!

 

[BarneyFife]

No, but she DID prophesy that Great Britain would enter our Civil War on the side of the South. That proves her to be a false prophet, and according to the penalty listed in Deuteronomy, she should have been stones. False prophecy is the same as making God into a liar

When someone asks a question about Mrs. White, I try to answer it truthfully, but when they just parrot lies they've Googled, I tend to acknowledge just that. The truth is she didn't care much for being held up as an authority.

 

[bbyrd009]

One verse and your proven wrong.

Luke 3:36
the son of Cainan,
the son of Arphaxad,
the son of Shem,
the son of Noah,
the son of Lamech,

in Anglish, yeh
you got me ok
go with that

 

[bbyrd009]

Using words can be a form of obfuscation. I see people are bandying the word "cult" around in this thread. People have a tendency to want to label and categorize things. Words can be helpful, generally speaking, but they are inexact and approximate. If I say "chair" to you, you have no idea what color it is, how big it is, what it's made of, what shape it is. If you visited me and I pointed to a chair and said, "You can sit in that chair if you like," your mind takes the word "chair" and you direct your attention in the direction I pointed. When you see the chair for yourself, you know exactly what I meant. Your mind can fill in many details once you perceive the reality of the chair for yourself. If you can't see it, no amount of speculation, no amount of extra words, will produce the precise picture of actually seeing it for yourself. The best you can do is to invent a mental picture in your mind of what I meant by "chair."

speaking in tongues
.

I even object to the Catholic idea (carried on by many Protestants) that God has a "'substance." The idea makes me laugh in fact. Substance implies for me something tangible, something I can pin down or weigh, analyze scientifically.

...something that "exists" according to our def of that term, "objective evidence," yeh?
so i suggest that Yah does not "exist" even; Yah is

The idea that God is a person or three persons leaves me gasping; and the history of how that came about may be worth examining.

no kidding

At first, the decree of one of the Ecumenical Councils was that God had three personae. That I can agree with since persona in Greek means a mask or a role in a drama. Not three persons, but three masks or personae. God relates to us three ways wearing three different masks.

never heard that one, ty!

 

[bbyrd009]

The scripture actually says that God's Son became a man.

guess you better Quote it

 

[Jane_Doe22]

From working with the LDS folk on another site, I found that the "mishies" are taught to lie and evade when they go out on their missions. Even though they may presently call themselves, (Christians" (according to their own definition) the history.

What many do not know is that during the "Mormon Wars" they took up arms against the people if Missouri because they wanted to turn the state into a Mormon theocracy because Joe Smith said that was where Eden was. They started ALL the shooting, and lost all of the "wars".

That is the reason why Governor Boggs made the Mormon Expulsion Order

from Wikipedia:

In October 1833, anti-Mormon mobs drove the Mormons from Jackson County. At that time, opponents of the Mormons used a pattern that would be repeated four times, culminating in the expulsion of the Mormons from the entire state.​

To hear them tell it, they were all peaceful people and that is prima facie evidence that the Mormons are taught to lie about things detrimental to their history

But that is really a background post, not intended as a derail

^This is a complete load of crock. Just complete crock.

 

[BarneyFife]

God CAN NOT Change.

He can do anything He pleases.
But His character doesn't change.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Cult can be either of the following.(A-B)
If people call their own group a Cult, that's their business.

When people call another group a Cult, it is typically an expression of their Opinion and is not required to be a fact.

Don't worry about it...you know what you accept and doesn't matter IF others do or do not.


* A) a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

* B) a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.

• Glory to God,
• Taken

Amen.