Must Christians obey government

[Brakelite]

It has been said by Winston Churchill that democracy is the worst form of government but it better than all the others.

I think Churchill was right. Democracy allows for the majority to oppress the minority, and the minority has no say in the matter. They just gotta suck it up for 3 or 4 years, and even then their say is useless. They are still the minority.
America solved that issue through republicanism, whereby the minority are protected through the constitution and bill of rights. Added to that are the several checks and balances that exist in having state legislation with certain jurisprudence and federal for national affairs but not overriding state autonomy except in exceptional circumstances.
Okay. Remember guys I'm a kiwi living on Australia and I do not have a degree in political science or history, so the above is just an opinion okay? I may very well be very wrong so go easy on me please. But the way I understand the American way, it's several grades better than simple democracy.

 

[APAK]

I think Churchill was right. Democracy allows for the majority to oppress the minority, and the minority has no say in the matter. They just gotta suck it up for 3 or 4 years, and even then their say is useless. They are still the minority.
America solved that issue through republicanism, whereby the minority are protected through the constitution and bill of rights. Added to that are the several checks and balances that exist in having state legislation with certain jurisprudence and federal for national affairs but not overriding state autonomy except in exceptional circumstances.
Okay. Remember guys I'm a kiwi living on Australia and I do not have a degree in political science or history, so the above is just an inversion okay? I may very well be very wrong so go easy on me please. But the way I understand the American way, it's several grades better than simple democracy.

Love your response again....you can be an honorary US citizen any time in my view...go all the way and be a triple country citizen of all three countries you mentioned. Of course our real citizenship is the Kingdom, our Kingdom, yours and mind. The Kingdom of the body in Christ our Lord. Looking forward to it with all my heart..

Great day again for you Backlit, and your family

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

So these are laws to keep people safe and prevent a lot more people from dying. It's not about control, but it's about saving and protecting as many human lives as possible from the pandemic.

And we can do the right thing by obeying the law in this situation and obeying the restrictions to keep people safe.

As I have said somewhere before my dad's cousin's wife died from covid-19 in Louisiana.

And for those who complain and oppose mask wearing, what do you have to complain about? Nurses wear them for long periods of time, furniture polishers wear them for long periods of time, some painters wear them for long periods of time. So what we have is a minority against OH & S it seems.

And because I am pro-life I agree with these restrictions that are preventing tens of millions more people from dying.

only they arent preventing anyone from dying; your immune system does that. And what they were first saying--before the manipulation started--was "flatten the curve," remember? Bc you cannot stop the wind, but what you can do by socially isolating healthy people is make them sick, too, in the end.

 

[bbyrd009]

I think Churchill was right. Democracy allows for the majority to oppress the minority, and the minority has no say in the matter. They just gotta suck it up for 3 or 4 years, and even then their say is useless. They are still the minority.
America solved that issue through republicanism, whereby the minority are protected through the constitution and bill of rights. Added to that are the several checks and balances that exist in having state legislation with certain jurisprudence and federal for national affairs but not overriding state autonomy except in exceptional circumstances.
Okay. Remember guys I'm a kiwi living on Australia and I do not have a degree in political science or history, so the above is just an inversion okay? I may very well be very wrong so go easy on me please. But the way I understand the American way, it's several grades better than simple democracy.

ha well we havent had a "democracy" for a long time now, imo and others; we have two parties that are really the same party, and a private Federal Reserve, Central Bank. How is that "democracy?"

 

[Rita]

Apak,
I have never said that I don’t believe that there are no deceptions or that I don’t think the virus is being used. I equally don’t trust the governments as far as I could throw them, and that’s no distance at all!! I do not believe that the virus is fake - end of, you have argued that point to me in the past, but don’t presume that I do not reflect and think about things that have been conveyed or things that are going on around me. All I have conveyed is that there are so many voices reaching so many different conclusions about things.I hear it from non believers ,work mates, family, on the forums - all slightly different.
Just because I choose to wear a mask does not mean I believe everything I hear - and I certainly don’t go along with all the reports from all the supposed experts - even they take on different sides. Who said I believe the science ?
I have sadly known of people that died, close to me in distance. At this moment in time I cannot agree that the virus does not exist, nor can I say that I do not believe that it wasn’t fatal to many people around the world. However some things do not add Up- but I cannot just agree with you on everything at this moment of time. Whether that view changes or not is not known.
Josho asked me to look at the thread, or more importantly what historyb had conveyed, I did that and responded, and that was inline with the OP theme , but I just used the present situation as a basis for some of my answer.

Rita

 

[bbyrd009]

Apak,
I have never said that I don’t believe that there are no deceptions or that I don’t think the virus is being used. I equally don’t trust the governments as far as I could throw them, and that’s no distance at all!! I do not believe that the virus is fake - end of, you have argued that point to me in the past, but don’t presume that I do not reflect and think about things that have been conveyed or things that are going on around me. All I have conveyed is that there are so many voices reaching so many different conclusions about things.I hear it from non believers ,work mates, family, on the forums - all slightly different.
Just because I choose to wear a mask does not mean I believe everything I hear - and I certainly don’t go along with all the reports from all the supposed experts - even they take on different sides. Who said I believe the science ?
I have sadly known of people that died, close to me in distance. At this moment in time I cannot agree that the virus does not exist, nor can I say that I do not believe that it wasn’t fatal to many people around the world. However some things do not add Up- but I cannot just agree with you on everything at this moment of time. Whether that view changes or not is not known.
Josho asked me to look at the thread, or more importantly what historyb had conveyed, I did that and responded, and that was inline with the OP theme , but I just used the present situation as a basis for some of my answer.

Rita

fwiw the science that no one seems to be disseminating is that you can take steps to improve your immunity, not hard steps, we know what improves immunity, but see we get "social distancing" installed as a viable countermeasure instead, while they dump more money into developing an "immunization" right.

 

[bbyrd009]

And the government will be on His shoulders to the point of the op

no reason that cannot be today imo

 

[JohnDB]

From lessons learned in Daniel we see that while Daniel was in captivity he did all that he could to help assist the nation of Babylon. Rumor/legend says that Daniel created the first central bank, fiat money system, and banking system for the Babylonians...which propelled them to even greater economic heights and development than ever seen at this time. Babylonians were thought to be heathens. Kinda odd for a guy who lost everything (even procreation rights and his name) to help this heathen nation do better.


But on matters of religion... Daniel took exception. He prayed publicly (by himself) on a daily basis. He never waivered or started a revolt. He didn't start an argument with the king on the matter either. He refused to bow down to the idol the king commissioned either. (He was outside the area but his Jewish compatriots didn't either)
Same thing with the Persians who came later. No arguing, no whining, but assistance in all things honestly until it came time to practice his religion.

And I think that this is the model we should follow.

However...

America is a nation founded by Christians for Christians. Any other notion is absolutely wrong. Themes of Christian ideals are infused and intertwined throughout our laws and governance. Any undoing of that is abject failure and our doom. The USA has a responsibility for having the label of God's name attached to it. When the day comes that the USA declares or creates an equivalent of an "Abomination that causes desolation" it's game over.

And this sort of thing can be accomplished in many ways quite easily. I have no idea when it's coming or how and why...I just know it is. And it's likely that "Christians" will likely have a hand in it's making.

 

[Rita]

fwiw the science that no one seems to be disseminating is that you can take steps to improve your immunity, not hard steps, we know what improves immunity, but see we get "social distancing" installed as a viable countermeasure instead, while they dump more money into developing an "immunization" right.

Yes, I know - I started taking extra supplements some months back - well we all know there are those that will be making a fortune from what is going on !!

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, I know - I started taking extra supplements some months back - well we all know there are those that will be making a fortune from what is going on !!

meh, garlic is cheap, zinc is maybe a little harder to get, but not much imo

 

[David H.]

Revelation 12 is a wonderful prophecy. But it covers vastly more time expanse than you give it credit for. Beginning with the birth of Christ to the OT church/congregation/body of Christ Israel, the woman (the church) then did indeed have to flee into the wilderness as a result of persecution from first Pagan Rome, then Papal Rome. The time period, 1260 years, started from 538 with the establishment of Justinian's declaration of independence and civil authority for the Roman bishops to judge heresy, thus creating a church/state union, this time culminated in 1798 when the political arm of the Papacy was disbanded by the French when they invaded Rome General Berthier) and took the Pope captive and subsequently died in exile. Though another Pope was elected, the church did not gain secular authority again until 1928 (the 'mortal wound' heals).

Revelation 12 is all future in the way of Prophecy, as the first thing it speaks of is Michael rising up and withstanding Satan. I Do not subscribe to the SDA interpretation of these events. That being said there are 2 women in revelation 12, One is Israel who flees into the wilderness as per Matthew 24:15-30, and the other is the Christendom whose doctrine will be oppressed, who fly into the wilderness. Without getting into all of my eschatology, the simplicity of end times is as follows. Birth pangs leads to Labor and delivery which leads to sorrow turning to Joy. This is exactly how Jesus says the events will occur, and this is seconded by the foreshadow of the fall feasts for Israel.... there are 40 days of sorrow beginning at Elul 1, the final 10 days of which are the 10 days of Awe leading up to the Day of atonement, which then is followed by the feast of Tabernacles which is described as the feast of sorrow turning to Joy. We can see all this play out in Revelation 12. That is to say, we are in the time of birth pangs now, we will be heading into the time of travail (the great tribulation) which is followed by the time of sorrow turning to Joy. I Believe in a pre-wrath rapture.

Satan has fallen many times from his ascended position, this will lead to his eventual confinement in the bottomless pit. He is seen falling In Genesis from the first heaven to the second, He is seen falling from the second heaven to the first heaven at the time of Christ where he sits now as the prince of the air, and he will fall to earth due to the testimony of the saints (rev. 12:11) and he will be chained into the bottomless pit for the thousand years and from there into the Lake of fire where the beast and false Prophet already reside after the 1000 years have ended.

I Do not see the Pope as the beast, But i do agree with you on the religious element of this beastly rule. IMO this will come out of the NAR and Dominionist teachings we are seeing in the churches now, and their concept of seven mountains that the church must dominate in order for the Kingdom to come. Much of this dominionist teaching is allied With the current President here, But he is not their man, but they are riding his coattails to power. I recommend you do a search on these teachings of the Dominionists/NAR and see for yourself. Undoubtedly, the Pope has a Role in this as well, But I see Rome as more of a bit player in all of this.

To tie this into this Post here, the deception and all its manifestations are a strong delusion to those that do not love the Truth, so strong that it may seem like it is capable of deceiving the very elect "if it were possible". It will have authority to back up its claims, it will have power, but we as Christians must Love God more than the world, and resist this final seduction of the Adversary just as Christ himself did in the wilderness when offered the Kingdoms of the world if he but worship Satan. Then we, in this Laodicean age can claim we have overcome as Christ overcame (Revelation 3:21).

 

[FollowHim]

Rita, you are missing the point of the OP. Me, believing that this virus etc is a scam is one thing, and I do. I guess I might even make a thread on the history of it to date, connecting all the dots that I know. Real or not this 'virus' has become the excuse and catalyst for the acts or attempts of the overthrowing of especially Western governments, all in parallel. It is at least a cultural and behavioural modification revolution being enacted here. I guess you really do not see a real conspiracy underfoot then? Step back a bit and see the bigger picture that is unfolding before your very eyes, everyday. Don't you think your government is over-reacting? I guess not if you believe the 'science' and the politicians and the politically promoted medical so-called experts.

There are folks like @Josho and @FollowHim that would rather hide their heads in the sand and believe that nothing is happening around them, out of the ordinary. They cite scripture or the Bible and then interpret governance and men's relationship to it, to suit their own minds, in their own way....I may add more later if I keep hearing this same one-sided, distorted status quo view from them and those like them.

I wear different lenses than they do, evidently. I guess they do believe the lie that there is a new virus that warrants all these worldwide draconian measures and no one should dare challenge the actions of government...I do not and I cannot believe they seem to believe it is all normal; 'run along now, there's nothing to see here.'

The people are not allowed then to know what their government is up to, because they serve no one except themselves and not their own people? Once a government becomes its own raison d'etre, the people have every right to intervene - it is truly a God-given right to do so and it must be done. These rebellious governments now intrude on God's turf. Now believers in kind question everything, as the Spirit reminds them of it. God laid out governmental institutions and if a mass rebellion occurs as we see today in many governments, God shall surely intervene and route them out as evil cancer. It is healthy to question government.

I was never raised to be 'puppet' and carte blanche, trust government in all things. I guess this is why I liked the US style of government and the Constitution. It is a near-perfect document that was surely inspired by God himself. I was definitely swayed in my opinion of government by my believer's walk over these years whilst living in the Spirit. Being around many relatives from OZ (Melbourne and Adelaide), States and England on and off over the years, also gave me new perspectives, for comparison and contrast of culture and government...although I grew up NZ. I was also in government and support for it ,for many years. These all changed my view, especially my new life in Christ before I was 20 years old.

Anyway, the purpose of this OP and thread is both for the 'virus' and then to use it to describe a believer's reaction to it, to its governing bodies etc, as the world is currently turning wacky , strange and more evil, if that can be imagined.

Bless you,

APAK

It is hard to hide your head in the sand when people have died from covid in our church, others been in coma's for 6 weeks, and others again worked in intensive care seeing people die who they could literally do very little to help.

Now those who believe this is conspiracy have little or no credibility and cause the deaths of people who listen to them and are vulnerable, and die as a result of catching this illness. Now if you balance this reality with faith, and positions of conviction, if some cannot hold reality which is right in front of them, there is little hope that in the world of faith anything really adds up.

Now there are people in our church from senior professors of medicine to politicians and civil servants embedded in government, and there is no conspiracy or great deception. Things are as they appear to be.

As a people who follow Jesus, truth is our walk and gospel. So I wonder how those who think the world is more mysterious and conspiritorial think they know Jesus, the Lord of love and peace.

To put it mildly, if I think a gun is my security so I can blow others away, my faith actually is just white wash. We stand and fall by His will. God bless you

 

[APAK]

Apak,
I have never said that I don’t believe that there are no deceptions or that I don’t think the virus is being used. I equally don’t trust the governments as far as I could throw them, and that’s no distance at all!! I do not believe that the virus is fake - end of, you have argued that point to me in the past, but don’t presume that I do not reflect and think about things that have been conveyed or things that are going on around me. All I have conveyed is that there are so many voices reaching so many different conclusions about things.I hear it from non believers ,work mates, family, on the forums - all slightly different.
Just because I choose to wear a mask does not mean I believe everything I hear - and I certainly don’t go along with all the reports from all the supposed experts - even they take on different sides. Who said I believe the science ?
I have sadly known of people that died, close to me in distance. At this moment in time I cannot agree that the virus does not exist, nor can I say that I do not believe that it wasn’t fatal to many people around the world. However some things do not add Up- but I cannot just agree with you on everything at this moment of time. Whether that view changes or not is not known.
Josho asked me to look at the thread, or more importantly what historyb had conveyed, I did that and responded, and that was inline with the OP theme , but I just used the present situation as a basis for some of my answer.

Rita

Well that's fair

 

[APAK]

fwiw the science that no one seems to be disseminating is that you can take steps to improve your immunity, not hard steps, we know what improves immunity, but see we get "social distancing" installed as a viable countermeasure instead, while they dump more money into developing an "immunization" right.

So true....if the virus is fake or the sequence of this virus is an 'old' one, and/or has not be isolated and examined because there is nothing to 'see,' then why would they fiddle around and try to make your immune system healthy. They want to make you believe it is a real new pandemic virus to dispense their future vaccine regiments.. It's a cruel PSYOPS and there will not be just ONE vaccine shot required by them...there will be two or three required.

I would not be surprises that the 1st shot is a glorified sugar solution or a flu strain shot they have used in the past to convince you that this vaccine is working and safe. And they of course will drop the number of cases world wide in the process to show the vaccine is effective. Then when the 2nd or 3rd one comes along, many will be in conformance and willing to trust these medical experts and take them. Their final vaccine however will be of a quite difference nature and composition. It will be a RNA/DNA vaccine that has been too dangerous to give humans thus far. It will create a new sequence of DNA within your body. This new sequence, replacing your old God-given one, will then be the new you....you will become a GMO and Gates and company can own you because you are not legally a human species anymore. They have a patent on you...thrilling right?

APAK

 

[APAK]

It is hard to hide your head in the sand when people have died from covid in our church, others been in coma's for 6 weeks, and others again worked in intensive care seeing people die who they could literally do very little to help.

Now those who believe this is conspiracy have little or no credibility and cause the deaths of people who listen to them and are vulnerable, and die as a result of catching this illness. Now if you balance this reality with faith, and positions of conviction, if some cannot hold reality which is right in front of them, there is little hope that in the world of faith anything really adds up.

Now there are people in our church from senior professors of medicine to politicians and civil servants embedded in government, and there is no conspiracy or great deception. Things are as they appear to be.

As a people who follow Jesus, truth is our walk and gospel. So I wonder how those who think the world is more mysterious and conspiritorial think they know Jesus, the Lord of love and peace.

To put it mildly, if I think a gun is my security so I can blow others away, my faith actually is just white wash. We stand and fall by His will. God bless you

Yes, you told me a bit about your family and related COVID history before. My regrets and condolences to those that perished. And I remember where we left off before when I contested not that they died of real illnesses or especially pneumonia, but how do you know it was of this novel virus? And I would think it would be impossible for you to get the actual real cause of death in this environment of COVID mania today.

So what is your answer to your question you just wrote to yourself or as a rhetorical question, or was it directed to me..you said.." As a people who follow Jesus, truth is our walk and gospel. So I wonder how those who think the world is more mysterious and conspiritorial think they know Jesus, the Lord of love and peace.?

Let me rephrase your question for you, more pointedly. Those that follow Jesus walk in truth and the gospel. Therefore those that know Jesus in truth and the gospel, the Lord of love and peace are those that cannot believe the the world and government is mysterious and conspiratorial?

And my answer to you would be, based on this revised question: Do you know the truth @FollowHim, I wonder

And where did this thought come from, and what is meant by having a weapon to 'blow someone away' as someone's security mean?

Yes we do stand and fall by his will.... And further. I testify that I attempt to do his will everyday , every hour and every minute of it.,,as humanly possible How say you brother?

Having a weapon or not is not an indication we are doing his will or not. I get the strong impression you have imposed your own standard on it and say if you do have a weapon you are not doing God's will and you are faithless.

What you really are saying is that you are really timid or even worse, and if you are killed innocently, especially without a sword, then God knows this I was doing his will.

How do you know what is the will of God for me?


Blessings,

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

So true....if the virus is fake or the sequence of this virus is an 'old' one, and/or has not be isolated and examined because there is nothing to 'see,' then why would they fiddle around and try to make your immune system healthy. They want to make you believe it is a real new pandemic virus to dispense their future vaccine regiments.. It's a cruel PSYOPS and there will not be just ONE vaccine shot required by them...there will be two or three required.

I would not be surprises that the 1st shot is a glorified sugar solution or a flu strain shot they have used in the past to convince you that this vaccine is working and safe. And they of course will drop the number of cases world wide in the process to show the vaccine is effective. Then when the 2nd or 3rd one comes along, many will be in conformance and willing to trust these medical experts and take them. Their final vaccine however will be of a quite difference nature and composition. It will be a RNA/DNA vaccine that has been too dangerous to give humans thus far. It will create a new sequence of DNA within your body. This new sequence, replacing your old God-given one, will then be the new you....you will become a GMO and Gates and company can own you because you are not legally a human species anymore. They have a patent on you...thrilling right?

APAK

well i guess one never knows, but im noting that the reality usually does not manifest the same way we believed it might? Not that i will be taking any vaccines anyway

 

[FollowHim]

Yes, you told me a bit about your family and related COVID history before. My regrets and condolences to those that perished. And I remember where we left off before when I contested not that they died of real illnesses or especially pneumonia, but how do you know it was of this novel virus? And I would think it would be impossible for you to get the actual real cause of death in this environment of COVID mania today.

So what is your answer to your question you just wrote to yourself or as a rhetorical question, or was it directed to me..you said.." As a people who follow Jesus, truth is our walk and gospel. So I wonder how those who think the world is more mysterious and conspiritorial think they know Jesus, the Lord of love and peace.?

Let me rephrase your question for you, more pointedly. Those that follow Jesus walk in truth and the gospel. Therefore those that know Jesus in truth and the gospel, the Lord of love and peace are those that cannot believe the the world and government is mysterious and conspiratorial?

And my answer to you would be, based on this revised question: Do you know the truth @FollowHim, I wonder

And where did this thought come from, and what is meant by having a weapon to 'blow someone away' as someone's security mean?

Yes we do stand and fall by his will.... And further. I testify that I attempt to do his will everyday , every hour and every minute of it.,,as humanly possible How say you brother?

Having a weapon or not is not an indication we are doing his will or not. I get the strong impression you have imposed your own standard on it and say if you do have a weapon you are not doing God's will and you are faithless.

What you really are saying is that you are really timid or even worse, and if you are killed innocently, especially without a sword, then God knows this I was doing his will.

How do you know what is the will of God for me?


Blessings,

APAK

I can understand the idea from a distance there is a conspiracy at work. But no country fills the hospitals with ill people, literally full, with operating theatres, overflow wards full of one type of patient, with lung loss, lack of breathing and 50% of them dying. It is just a wave of patients, and whole hospitals being filled with nothing else. And then after 3 months it stops. Either they recover or die, and the numbers of new patients stop. Medical doctors, nurses, physios go from their normal jobs to looking after these patients and then finally back to their normal job.

Now anyone who thinks this is a conspiracy has a mental disorder, because no one invents or creates this, it overwhelms countries.

Now there is innocent cynicism and just plain paranoia. Why this issue matters is because vulnerable people with cancer, lung diseases, immune compromised systems will die. We have close contact with 3 such people. So each day I isolate, cut off contact with outsiders, post, wash hands and am very careful. And this virus is not like other illnesses. Get it badly and you can become permanently disabled. Also you can be fine. Worse still the bigger exposure probably the worse the outcome, and it will return after 4 months maybe, so no long term immunity.

So it is fine to believe whatever you like, if people do not die as a result. But when they do, it is no longer fine, but a crime.
It is like saying here is a long knife, stabbing yourself in the chest does you no harm. Give it a go, you will be fine.
This is the level of insanity that is going on, and the lack of understanding how many people 55+ are vulnerable.

So many people have poured scorn on the virus, and then got ill, and lost a partner or their own lives.

This is the dilemma. There is no opinion here it is just basic medical reality. There I simply rest my case, because judgement will fall, and probably we over time will discover the outcome of this illness. Maybe a vaccine will work, but we will have this disease for the rest of our lives.
God bless you

 

[Enoch111]

As I said in the other thread, the current covid-19 restrictions are to prevent a far bigger spread of the virus and to keep people safe.

FORMER AUSSIE PM SLAMS “HEALTH DICTATORSHIP”
He said, “much of the media has indulged virus-hysteria with the occasional virus-linked death of a younger person highlighted to show that deadly threat isn’t confined to the very old or the already-very-sick or those exposed to massive viral loads.”

Former Aussie PM Slams “Health Dictatorship”

 

[Brakelite]

ha well we havent had a "democracy" for a long time now, imo and others; we have two parties that are really the same party, and a private Federal Reserve, Central Bank. How is that "democracy?"

It isn't, which is why I say elsewhere that in theory and in it's founding documents, it's a constitutional republic, but in practice and prophetically it speaks like the dragon of Revelation 13:11...

 

[Brakelite]

I wrote the following ten years ago. I think it not only relevant to this discussion, but even more relevant to today's society, especially in America, than it was when I wrote it.
Balaam