Must Christians obey government
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I think you could count the number of politicians who actually do work for you by setting off a fire alarm in the senate. The ones who stay are working for you.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Mark 6:7 ¶ And he called unto him His anarchists, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
Who are you talking about Historyb ?
As far as I am aware, we followed what Europe was doing - We saw what was going on in Spain and Italy - so we acted.
I would be interested to know who you are talking about though , I am intrigued as to who it was you think the USA experts followed.
Rita
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
While this had an immediate fulfilment in the time of the early church, I do agree that this will find a secondary fulfilment in the end time church which in many places is being taking place now.
Revelation 12 is a wonderful prophecy. But it covers vastly more time expanse than you give it credit for. Beginning with the birth of Christ to the OT church/congregation/body of Christ Israel, the woman (the church) then did indeed have to flee into the wilderness as a result of persecution from first Pagan Rome, then Papal Rome. The time period, 1260 years, started from 538 with the establishment of Justinian's declaration of independence and civil authority for the Roman bishops to judge heresy, thus creating a church/state union, this time culminated in 1798 when the political arm of the Papacy was disbanded by the French when they invaded Rome General Berthier) and took the Pope captive and subsequently died in exile. Though another Pope was elected, the church did not gain secular authority again until 1928 (the 'mortal wound' heals).
The 42 months, times time and half a time, and 1260 days all refer to the same time prophetic period...1260 years of persecution, yet also 1260 years of being supported and fed by God.
This sounds a little bazarre, and I think you are stretching. It was the discovery of America that ultimately led the church to be free from papal persecutions, and at the time of the captivity, 1798, (the land beast rising in Revelation 13 at the time of the captivity of the sea beast).
I do not hold to any rapture theory. The church will glorify God by going through the coming time of trouble by remaining faithful to her calling despite immense opposition and yes, persecution. At the end, there will be a death decree laid upon all Christians who have refused the mark. Note that the mark itself is a religious sign of affiliation to a religious order...it is a form of worship...for which financial incentives are offered. Turning down a vaccine at a time when a great number of people will be on your side and supporting your stand, even though there may be work issues etc, will be far easier that refusing a membership to a club (Babylon the Great) to which the entire world, all religions, all political persuasions, and all churches will happily affiliate to. Your refusal will be considered not just treachery to the global government, but treachery to God. You will not only lose your job. But also any and all manner of income, support, you will be homeless, ostracized even by other homeless, you will have nothing. Except the seal of God. Finally, after threats of jail, fines, torture etc, the final remedy to your intransigence and stubbornness will be a death sentence.
If you are on the right side that is. Choose wrong now you may find yourself chasing and imprisoning those I have described above...much like Paul did when known as Saul. Thinking that by murdering Christians he was doing God service. The future is going to be more complicated and surprising than many believe. Certainly more complicated than believing that they are going to whisked away without any problems.
Just been mulling this over, I can only speak from a personal prospective. I know that Apak, and a few others believe this whole virus is a scam - so I can understand the OP and thread.
However, with regards to whether I would go against the government, which I consider is below The Lord, it would depend on what the Lord was guiding me to do.
I would not merely follow another Christian , because that would be following another sheep as well as if I just followed blindly what the government were saying. ( although I would be naive to say I had not ever done both !! )
Right now, in the UK, the government tell me I can meet with a number of people, but my work is telling that I can only meet with 6 at a time. Logic, when I go shopping I am actually meeting with a whole load of people. Some wear masks, some don’t. In pubs you don’t have to wear masks, in shops you do ( if you are able ) - so the rules don’t make a lot of sense anyway. However I am employed by my managers, they are an authority over me. At the moment I do not feel any kind of conviction to go against what they, and others are asking of me. I am not going to denounce the sense of care that I have for others, it’s in my heart.
Now if work were to eventually tell me that ‘ I have to have a vaccine ‘ - well that would be an issue I would have to seriously consider, not because of the conspiracies or anything else, but purely on the basis that it’s not something I have complete peace about.
When I was married to a non believer ( came to faith after I married ) Scripture relayed that my husband had authority over me, but running alongside that was the knowledge and truth that The Lord had a higher authority over me. So if and when my husband asked me to do something that would go against my conscience and what the Lord was laying on my heart - then I would refuse and explain why.
So, for me , it’s not clear cut, it’s based on what The Lord requires and leads me to do.
There are just so many voices shouting out through this present situation- not everyone is right, I would rather lean on the One person who knows the truth of it all- The Lord.
Rita
We are to obey authorities as they exercise the authority given to them by God.
They are though bounded by the limits of Gods will and morality.
The principle is we support justice and the rule of law and order. We are not anarchistic or against authority because it does not believe in God the way we do. We are not against authority and desire to grab it for ourselves and create a theocracy. It is why Jesus did not come out against the Romans or slavery or injustice within the community, but emphasised the individuals heart and conscience and following love in our daily walk. In a sense all the surrounds were secondary to the reality within, which transcends our physical situation and circumstance. God bless you
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Your arguments are unconvincing Josho because you haven't given a rationale for them. So perhaps I can do that. Yesterday I read an article about John MacArthur who defied authority and opened his church for meetings. He was asked why he defied the civil authorities when the bible tells us not to. He had obviously thought this one through as he did not give a pat answer to the question. What he did say convinced me and it was this.
There are three realms of authority. The government (civil), the church (religious), and the family (society).
His backdrop was to render to Ceasar those things that are Caesar's and render to God those things that are God's. He said that the authority God gave the government is for civil matters. No where does God give the government control of religious or family matters?
If we break the law then we expect the government to exercise its authority in the courts. If there is the need for water in farming land the government is expected to come up with a solution.
Whether the church opens for meetings is not a civil matter. It is a religious matter therefore it has no authority to control the decision or rule over it. Of course, some are going to say that it is a civil matter because people can die if they have church services. As it is first and foremost a religious matter, the government has to prove it has a compelling interest in keeping churches shut. MacArthur believes it has not done this hence his refusal to obey the government.
The authority in the family is the father and no one has any right to usurp that authority unless there is a compelling interest to do so as in a father abusing his children. If a father decides that the children will go to bed at 8 pm, it is nobody else's business.
Now regarding North Korea, the government has overstepped the mark by denying people the right to own a bible as that is a religious matter, not civil. But the difference there is that the government of North Korea believes that they have the right to govern everyone in all aspects of life. There is no such thing as the separation of powers. That becomes a dictatorship which decides that no one has any rights except what the government gives them. If the government decides not to give them something that is too bad because we make all the decisions around here. Be thankful for what you do get.
Communist dictatorships are total hypocrites. I read two days ago that the President of China is a billionaire. So much for everyone equal.
It has been said by Winston Churchill that democracy is the worst form of government but it better than all the others.
There are three realms of authority. The government (civil), the church (religious), and the family (society).
His backdrop was to render to Ceasar those things that are Caesar's and render to God those things that are God's. He said that the authority God gave the government is for civil matters. No where does God give the government control of religious or family matters?
If we break the law then we expect the government to exercise its authority in the courts. If there is the need for water in farming land the government is expected to come up with a solution.
Whether the church opens for meetings is not a civil matter. It is a religious matter therefore it has no authority to control the decision or rule over it. Of course, some are going to say that it is a civil matter because people can die if they have church services. As it is first and foremost a religious matter, the government has to prove it has a compelling interest in keeping churches shut. MacArthur believes it has not done this hence his refusal to obey the government.
The authority in the family is the father and no one has any right to usurp that authority unless there is a compelling interest to do so as in a father abusing his children. If a father decides that the children will go to bed at 8 pm, it is nobody else's business.
Now regarding North Korea, the government has overstepped the mark by denying people the right to own a bible as that is a religious matter, not civil. But the difference there is that the government of North Korea believes that they have the right to govern everyone in all aspects of life. There is no such thing as the separation of powers. That becomes a dictatorship which decides that no one has any rights except what the government gives them. If the government decides not to give them something that is too bad because we make all the decisions around here. Be thankful for what you do get.
Communist dictatorships are total hypocrites. I read two days ago that the President of China is a billionaire. So much for everyone equal.
It has been said by Winston Churchill that democracy is the worst form of government but it better than all the others.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
But the fact is the bible was not written for those who do not live in North Korea. If it says to obey the authorities that applies to whatever country you live in.
Hmmm, you do realize that the original apostles under persecution didn't resist arrest or fight the authorities with fists and weapons.
Anyway....
But then like what Rita said, the husband has authority over the wife, unless if God tells the wife otherwise.
Likewise....
The government has authority over us and we are to obey them, unless if God instructs us to do otherwise.
When God gives specific instructions to one person, it does not necessarily apply to another person. So if God tells you @marksman to go to a certain place at a certain time, it does not mean that I am to go to that place too.
Unless if God speaks otherwise, we are meant to obey the government, as the government and authorities like the police are above us, and if we don't obey them, we will eventually get into trouble, if God tells you or me to do otherwise, He will protect us and give us total peace.
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@marksman and @APAK and some others may want to read this but. On another note I think the other thing we need to ask though, is what does God really want? And it may be a hard pill for some to swallow. A lot of people are asking for a way out of the restrictions and have pushed Dan Andrews our premier to provide a roadmap out as soon as possible. Many people want to go back to the way it was before the pandemic, but is this what God really wants? So if we look at Australia for example, what was it like before the covid-19 pandemic for many? For many people it was pubs, bars, wild parties, night clubs, many were having wild times getting drunk with their mates before the pandemic. And it would appear a lot people still want to go back to that sort of life in this country and I don't think that is something God wants. Maybe God wants the nation to turn to him.
And you would know about the next part @marksman and it's already happening, I believe God wants to bring back the Church to where the 2 or 3 are gathered. So in this pandemic for example 1000s of church buildings may be closed, but up have sprung up 100s of thousands more right in the living rooms of our homes, some people may say the Church is shut down, but it really isn't.
So I am going to tell you all. Yes we may be living under government restrictions right now, but what if in desperation a nation turns to God?
So on that note, you have seen everything that I had to post, so let's quit the debating and pray for the people to turn to God.
Rita, you are missing the point of the OP. Me, believing that this virus etc is a scam is one thing, and I do. I guess I might even make a thread on the history of it to date, connecting all the dots that I know. Real or not this 'virus' has become the excuse and catalyst for the acts or attempts of the overthrowing of especially Western governments, all in parallel. It is at least a cultural and behavioural modification revolution being enacted here. I guess you really do not see a real conspiracy underfoot then? Step back a bit and see the bigger picture that is unfolding before your very eyes, everyday. Don't you think your government is over-reacting? I guess not if you believe the 'science' and the politicians and the politically promoted medical so-called experts.
There are folks like @Josho and @FollowHim that would rather hide their heads in the sand and believe that nothing is happening around them, out of the ordinary. They cite scripture or the Bible and then interpret governance and men's relationship to it, to suit their own minds, in their own way....I may add more later if I keep hearing this same one-sided, distorted status quo view from them and those like them.
I wear different lenses than they do, evidently. I guess they do believe the lie that there is a new virus that warrants all these worldwide draconian measures and no one should dare challenge the actions of government...I do not and I cannot believe they seem to believe it is all normal; 'run along now, there's nothing to see here.'
The people are not allowed then to know what their government is up to, because they serve no one except themselves and not their own people? Once a government becomes its own raison d'etre, the people have every right to intervene - it is truly a God-given right to do so and it must be done. These rebellious governments now intrude on God's turf. Now believers in kind question everything, as the Spirit reminds them of it. God laid out governmental institutions and if a mass rebellion occurs as we see today in many governments, God shall surely intervene and route them out as evil cancer. It is healthy to question government.
I was never raised to be 'puppet' and carte blanche, trust government in all things. I guess this is why I liked the US style of government and the Constitution. It is a near-perfect document that was surely inspired by God himself. I was definitely swayed in my opinion of government by my believer's walk over these years whilst living in the Spirit. Being around many relatives from OZ (Melbourne and Adelaide), States and England on and off over the years, also gave me new perspectives, for comparison and contrast of culture and government...although I grew up NZ. I was also in government and support for it ,for many years. These all changed my view, especially my new life in Christ before I was 20 years old.
Anyway, the purpose of this OP and thread is both for the 'virus' and then to use it to describe a believer's reaction to it, to its governing bodies etc, as the world is currently turning wacky , strange and more evil, if that can be imagined.
Bless you,
APAK
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