Church To Stay On Earth

[marks]

That part in verse 20 is an expression for longevity. Either one believes in 'eternal life' per the New Covenant... through Christ Jesus, or one doesn't.

Are you saying then that people won't actually die?

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

?

 

[marks]

Have you studied 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 thoroughly? I know pre-trib likes to pull from that chapter a lot, but I find many on pre-trib haven't properly understood it.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That specific gathering is about the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him on the day of His coming:

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

That is the specific link to that gathered group in the Matt.24:31 verse. They are gathered in their resurrected bodies, and Paul said the asleep saints resurrect first.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

The Mark 13 example of that gathering is different. It instead is about those still alive on earth being gathered:

1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 tells us those of us still alive on earth will not precede (prevent = beforehand in the Greek) the asleep saints which will resurrect first.

It's also important to understand that event accompanies the 'change' to the "spiritual body" which Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15, what Paul called the "image of the heavenly". The word "air" in 1 Thess.4:17 can also mean the 'breath' per the Greek 'aer' (Strong's no.109), pointing to the breath of life spirit body. Basically it mean, on that day, the heavenly dimension is going to be opened up to all peoples. This present existence in a flesh body will be over. That's why Rev.20 doesn't mention a flesh death anymore, but only the "second death" which is the casting into the future "lake of fire", as it was prepared especially for the devil and his angels, and they never had flesh bodies.

And Matthew 25:32? What is that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Oh, I know plenty that do believe they reign from Heaven.

Perhaps you should be discussing that part with them . . .

Much love!

 

[Davy]

I'm not sure I can follow your answer, can you simplify this for me?

I've read through this several times, but I'm not seeing an answer, my question was how Jesus' audience would have understood Him as He was prophesying the gathering of the "chosen" and "all nations".

Here's how I answer this. When Jesus said the elect would be gathered, and that that the nations would be gathered, I'm thinking that Jesus' audience, Jewish, would have understood Jesus to be referring to the elect nation, themselves, the Jews, and "all nations" meaning the gentiles. The chosen, and the nations, the Jews, and the gentiles.

Do you agree or disagree?

Much love!

Ask our Heavenly Father about it through His Son. I can't make you 'see' what those Scriptures are about, even though they are plain to me, and I gave a brief description for each one. And you cannot allow preconceived denominational notions to interfere when you read it. You have to read as if God is speaking directly (which He is really, since His Word is The Living Word).

I'm not going to get into the seminary tethers of how Jesus' audience might or might not have understood what He said. Much time has passed since His first coming, but it still does not mean what He said to them doesn't still apply to His Church today. If you believe it doesn't, like some say about His Olivet discourse, then I recommend to stop listening to the traditions of men, and ask The LORD directly.

The Scriptures I posted reveal that God's Israel gathered at Christ's coming is... Christ's Church of BOTH believing Israelite, and believing Gentile. That is who all is gathered specifically back to the holy land and setup to reign with Jesus there. The rest of peoples will be of the nations outside its gates. This is also what Rev.20 shows for the Millennium, as Zechariah 14 does also, and especially that Isaiah 19 Scripture I quoted where Israel, Assyria, and Egypt are each a third in God's future kingdom on earth.

So I don't find that all that difficult to understand, since I've done Bible study in the OT prophets, so I'm aware what's there. But those who haven't done that OT study, they are not as likely to understand what all Paul didn't cover from the prophets that is still to be fulfilled.

 

[marks]

I recommend to stop listening to the traditions of men, and ask The LORD directly.

Yes, I completely agree!

 

[marks]

The Scriptures I posted reveal that God's Israel gathered at Christ's coming is... Christ's Church of BOTH believing Israelite, and believing Gentile. That is who all is gathered specifically back to the holy land and setup to reign with Jesus there. The rest of peoples will be of the nations outside its gates. This is also what Rev.20 shows for the Millennium, as Zechariah 14 does also, and especially that Isaiah 19 Scripture I quoted where Israel, Assyria, and Egypt are each a third in God's future kingdom on earth.

And who is being gathered in Matthew 25:32, and what is happening with them?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

The congregation in the wilderness?

Or the body of Christ?

Are you saying these are one and the same?

What do you think did begin on Pentecost?

Much love!

I have to ask a question in response, what do you think when Jesus did this for those of the Old Testament?

Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
KJV


1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

 

[Davy]

And were they baptized into Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection?

Much love!

If you understand the fulfillment by Jesus of the Isaiah 42:7 prophecy per the "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3 and 4, then yes, they had to have been baptized (spiritually) into Jesus' death when they accepted Christ's preaching of The Gospel, and led them out of that prison house. Like He said in Mark 12:26-27, God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

 

[marks]

It's also important to understand that event accompanies the 'change' to the "spiritual body" which Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15, what Paul called the "image of the heavenly". The word "air" in 1 Thess.4:17 can also mean the 'breath' per the Greek 'aer' (Strong's no.109), pointing to the breath of life spirit body. Basically it mean, on that day, the heavenly dimension is going to be opened up to all peoples. This present existence in a flesh body will be over. That's why Rev.20 doesn't mention a flesh death anymore, but only the "second death" which is the casting into the future "lake of fire", as it was prepared especially for the devil and his angels, and they never had flesh bodies.

I want to be sure I'm understanding . . . no one anywhere will have flesh bodies after Jesus' coming in power and glory, as in Matthew 24:30? Am I understanding correctly?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Do you think that there was the possibility that if Israel had as a nation received Jesus as their Messiah, that the kingdom would have come to Israel?

Much love!

Well, yeah. But if Adam and Eve had not sinned in God's Garden, would there have been the need for Christ to be born of woman to die on the cross? That's kind of the category your question is in. Some might see it as invading God's space about His purposes.

 

[marks]

I have to ask a question in response, what do you think when Jesus did this for those of the Old Testament?

Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
KJV


1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

Myself, I think that as sin is not imputed when there is no law, that Jesus was announcing this to dead ones who had lived when there was no law, and preaching to them the gospel of their redemption. But to be sure, I'm not aware of a passage that gives the particulars of Jesus' message.

Only that with one exception, that being a civic announcement in Ephesus, every use of this word is in reference to preaching the Gospel.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well, yeah. But if Adam and Eve had not sinned in God's Garden, would there have been the need for Christ to be born of woman to die on the cross? That's kind of the category your question is in. Some might see it as invading God's space about His purposes.

Actually, this question is about whether or not God would be disengenuous, and would offer things which could never be. Some would answer, no, it was never a possibility. The question relates to how we understand God's intent as it relates to His foreknowledge.

God knew the Jews would reject Jesus, and continue to reject Jesus. But I believe God's promise to Israel that had they received Jesus, God would have fulfilled the covenant with them. And so therefore, there were not, for instance, any prophecies that had been given that could not have been completely and fully fulfilled had they received their Messiah, and been given the kingdom.

And example would be, there are no OT prophecies of a gentile church that resulted from Israel's rejection. Paul teaches on this after the fact. Had this been prophesied, I think we'd have a tough time making a case that things could have been different.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Are you saying then that people won't actually die?

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

?

When Lord Jesus returns... everyone will be changed to the "spiritual body". Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15 that as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Have the wicked borne the image of the earthy? Yes! They will also bear the image of the heavenly in that time. It sounds like you haven't understood what Paul taught about the resurrection in 1 Cor.15, nor about the difference between the two dimensions of existence, i.e., this earthly one vs. the heavenly one.

 

[Davy]

And Matthew 25:32? What is that?

Much love!

That's the same event, the gathering of His sheep on His right hand vs. the goats (wicked) on the left. You do realize that He used the idea of sheep about His Church at times, right, like John 10 and John 21?

 

[marks]

It sounds like you haven't understood what Paul taught about the resurrection in 1 Cor.15, nor about the difference between the two dimensions of existence, i.e., this earthly one vs. the heavenly one.

Is there a question you'd like to ask, or a point to make, or continue to make assumptions about me?

Because if you and I are both truly born again, we're seated at table in the heavens together right now. If we could see through the veil we would see that. We know that we HAVE a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens. We're going to be clothed upon with that house. Yes, I think we have a dual existence. I believe that I think that more concretely than most people I know. But what of it?

We have a difference of opinion on timelines I think, primarily, and a bit of a difference on ecclesiology. I think it's safe to say you are more covenantal and I'm more dispensational.

I had a fascinating discussion with Scott A some months ago about the material and spiritual aspects of the resurrection, and in what flesh we are raised. It is very interesting to think about! Mostly I like the place that says "the body of our humiliation will be made like His glorious body". I'm looking forward to that!!



Much love!

 

[marks]

That's the same event, the gathering of His sheep on His right hand vs. the goats (wicked) on the left. You do realize that He used the idea of sheep about His Church at times, right, like John 10 and John 21?

So then in actuality, not two gatherings, but a single gathering of all people on the earth, and then a separation between the sheep and the goats, the sheep being the same people as the elect in 24:31? Is that correct?

Much love!

 

[marks]

When Lord Jesus returns... everyone will be changed to the "spiritual body".

And the millennial kingdom follows this?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

I want to be sure I'm understanding . . . no one anywhere will have flesh bodies after Jesus' coming in power and glory, as in Matthew 24:30? Am I understanding correctly?

Much love!

Yes, that's right, here is where Paul was pulling from about death being swallowed up in victory on that future day...

Isa 25:6-8
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
KJV

If you watched Clint Walker's testimony about his near death experience, then that spirit body he said we have is what will be revealed for all peoples on that day of Christ's coming. This flesh death will be over for all peoples. Yet that still is not Christ's Salvation. It's only a manifesting of the resurrection body, or "spiritual body", or "image of the heavenly".

Paul also taught two required changes in 1 Cor.15 to have eternal life through Christ, per 1 Corinthians 15:54. Just as Lord Jesus showed the blind Pharisees were like whited tombs outside but inside were full of dead men's bones, that's the idea of being without Christ. The non-believer is actually spiritually dead inside their flesh; their soul is in a liable to perish condition without Christ. The liable to die soul Paul defined as "this mortal". It has to put on immortality by Faith on Jesus Christ. But the body of incorruption, which is the "spiritual body" or resurrection body, that is for everyone. It is only the outward image body in the heavenly. It is what the angels have, even Satan and his angels. God can still destroy it in the future "lake of fire", called the "second death". That is what those of the "resurrection of damnation" will still be subject to throughout Christ's future 1,000 years reign.

 

[Davy]

Myself, I think that as sin is not imputed when there is no law, that Jesus was announcing this to dead ones who had lived when there was no law, and preaching to them the gospel of their redemption. But to be sure, I'm not aware of a passage that gives the particulars of Jesus' message.

Only that with one exception, that being a civic announcement in Ephesus, every use of this word is in reference to preaching the Gospel.

Much love!

I see it as the fulfillment of the Isaiah 42:7 prophecy, the prison house being a symbol for the heavenly pit prison.

Some doctrines of men assign those "spirits in prison" as being evil spirits, and that Jesus was only proclaiming His victory over them by that event. I don't agree with that, especially with Peter's follow up on it in the next chapter.

 

[Davy]

Actually, this question is about whether or not God would be disengenuous, and would offer things which could never be. Some would answer, no, it was never a possibility. The question relates to how we understand God's intent as it relates to His foreknowledge.

God knew the Jews would reject Jesus, and continue to reject Jesus. But I believe God's promise to Israel that had they received Jesus, God would have fulfilled the covenant with them. And so therefore, there were not, for instance, any prophecies that had been given that could not have been completely and fully fulfilled had they received their Messiah, and been given the kingdom.

And example would be, there are no OT prophecies of a gentile church that resulted from Israel's rejection. Paul teaches on this after the fact. Had this been prophesied, I think we'd have a tough time making a case that things could have been different.

Much love!

This was in play, showing God caused Israel's blindness for His Purpose...

Rom 11:7-10
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
KJV

Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
KJV