Church To Stay On Earth

[Enoch111]

One of the false doctrines the Pre-tribulationists have is the false idea that Christ raptures His Church to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation" Jesus foretold of in His Olivet discourse. Then after Jesus' return to end the tribulation they believe Israel is then restored, on earth, while the Church reigns with Jesus, from Heaven.

Once you replace "false" with "true", you will be on the right track. Otherwise you will continue to wander in the wilderness of false teachings.

The eternal home of the Church is the New Jerusalem in Heaven. But redeemed and restored Israel will definitely be on earth and Israel will become "greater Israel".

 

[CharismaticLady]

Over the years I've heard all kinds of predictions and never paid much attention to them. But I believe we are in the last days. I also believe that up ahead is a tsunami of the Holy Spirit which I call the Harvest wave. When He first showed it to me in '96 I thought it would be here by the following weekend. There was a real sense of urgency that came with it. The last time He showed it to me it was much closer. In it were President Trump and an F-16 jet. "It's growing larger, it's getting nearer, oh can't you see it straight ahead? I can see a wave, the Harvest Wave." Part of a song the Lord inspired me to write 19 years ago. Shalom. P.S. What you're saying here reminds me of the book of Revelation. I won't be surprised if He does come back after the tribulation. One way or another, we are going to find out. Bye.

On April 13, 2029 that is when we will either be hit by the huge asteroid NASA is watching, or it will be a near miss, but close enough to take out satellites. As I said, "this could be the fullfilling of Revelation 8, not that it will. But seeing as it will be too close to say for sure that it will miss us, let's keep our eyes open for the revealing of the Antichrist in 2022. If that happens, then the asteroid will hit us. They have already calculated that it will hit at the shoreline of the California/Mexico border.

 

[Davy]

As a pre-tribber, I don't have an issue with this.

Yes, the Apostles will judge the tribes, in the restored National Israel. Natural men - Israelites - will be judged by the resurrected Apostles, and King David will be resurrected the king of Israel. And Jesus is King of Kings.

That 'natural men' idea applied to restored Israel just isn't written. That's a dispensational theory by the same guy (Darby) who taught a pre-trib rapture in 1830's Britain. Christ's Church will be 'on earth' with Him during His future Millennial reign. The Ezekiel 44 chapter reveals the faithful Church that reigns with Jesus as the Zadok, which means 'the Just' or 'the Righteous'. It is written there that they only will be allowed to approach Christ in that time and serve Him at His table. The other Levites will not be allowed to approach Him but they will be in charge of all the menial duties involving the sanctuary, so those represent the religious leadership that led God's people astray, both in OT times and thereafter. All that is to happen on earth, not up in Heaven.

Something interesting occurs to me.

1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

The Apostle's names will be written on the foundations of the Heavenly City. In this passage above, we are builded directly on the foundation of Christ.

Yes, and those 12 thrones over the 12 tribes of Israel will be on earth. That is where Christ's Apostles will reign from, in the holy lands of promise. The new Jerusalem is to come down out of Heaven to the earth. Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22:14-15 reveals God's River is back on earth again, and the tree of life is manifested on earth, for the Millennium. Ezekiel 47 even reveals its location in the middle east naming two specific areas. The Rev.22:14-15 verses reveal Christ's elect will have right inside the gates of the holy city to the tree of life, while the wicked dwell outside those gates, which is pointing to the time of Christ's 1,000 years reign on earth. So there are Biblical detail pointers that show where the Church will be in the future after Jesus returns. The pre-trib rapture doctors simply bypass those Scriptures because it goes against their doctrine of men.

 

[Davy]

Very well said Davy,

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Amen...yes Jew and Gentile = one in Christ. But that does not mean there won't be different 'roles', positions and levels...on the new earth when He puts all His enemies under His feet. The apostles will, as you said, be ruling over the 12 tribes.
The pre-tribbers have Him returning twice! Sad to think I believed that only because somebody on a 'stage' taught it. Wished I were a Berean back then!

Right, that's what I mean by the Pre-tribulationalists wanting to have their cake and eat it too. The idea that when the kingdom of Israel is restored on earth when Jesus comes, and that means 'only' Israelites that did NOT believe, and then claiming the Israelites who 'did' believe are no longer Israelites, those are ideas in direct contradiction. The very idea about the Israel that is restored at Christ's coming is about Christ's Kingdom, as He is the rightful King of Israel, to sit upon David's throne, an earthly throne...

Luke 1:31-33
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call His name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David:

33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

 

[marks]

That's a dispensational theory by the same guy (Darby) who taught a pre-trib rapture in 1830's Britain.

I wouldn't dismiss me with a reference to Darby. I study the Bible, and I don't know much about Darby or what he thought.

My thinking is this.

God removes the church from the earth, then brings all of Isreal to faith through great tribulation. Jesus returns with the church. Israel is gathered back to their land, now expanded. The gentiles are gathered and judged. The OT faithful are raised from the dead. David will be king over Isreal, the 12 Apostles judge the 12 tribes. The Israelites and the righteous gentiles live on into the kingdom, having children. Jesus, King of Kings, rules the world from the temple in Jerusalem, the nations come to Israel to worship. The risen serve Jesus in whatever capacity He wants, yes, on this earth.

I get all this from reading the Bible.

I seem to get this a lot, that since I believe pre-trib, I must think the Christians never live on the earth again. That makes no sense to me.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Hi. You said that the dead in Christ will return with Him. I never thought about that before. I'm seeking the Lord on this one.

That is specifically written by Apostle Paul...

1 Thess 4:14-15
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

Paul is saying that if we believe Jesus rose from the dead then the resurrection of the dead is real. And those who die in Christ are resurrected first. That is how Jesus brings those asleep saints with Him when He comes.


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (phthano - go beforehand) them which are asleep.
KJV

The KJV "prevent" actually means 'to precede, or beforehand' (Strong's no.5348). Those still alive on earth shall not precede the alseep saints which have already died in Christ. Why? Because the asleep saints are resurrected first, and then those still alive are changed, which links to the event Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:51-4 about being changed at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump.

 

[Truman]

That is specifically written by Apostle Paul...

1 Thess 4:14-15
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

Paul is saying that if we believe Jesus rose from the dead then the resurrection of the dead is real. And those who die in Christ are resurrected first. That is how Jesus brings those asleep saints with Him when He comes.


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (phthano - go beforehand) them which are asleep.
KJV

The KJV "prevent" actually means 'to precede, or beforehand' (Strong's no.5348). Those still alive on earth shall not precede the alseep saints which have already died in Christ. Why? Because the asleep saints are resurrected first, and then those still alive are changed, which links to the event Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:51-4 about being changed at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump.

I've read it many times but I missed it. I thought it meant the dead would rise from their graves. Which didn't fit with other scripture. It's a good day, I learned something new. Shalom.

 

[Davy]

Once you replace "false" with "true", you will be on the right track. Otherwise you will continue to wander in the wilderness of false teachings.

The eternal home of the Church is the New Jerusalem in Heaven. But redeemed and restored Israel will definitely be on earth and Israel will become "greater Israel".

As usual, nothing but secular humanist supposition, and nothing per God's written Word.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

One of the false doctrines the Pre-tribulationists have is the false idea that Christ raptures His Church to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation" Jesus foretold of in His Olivet discourse.

Then after Jesus' return to end the tribulation they believe Israel is then restored, on earth, while the Church reigns with Jesus, from Heaven.

That of course is not written in The Word of God, neither is a pre-trib rapture.

Both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles make up Christ's Church, and those believing Israelites don't stop being from the children of Israel just because they believe on Jesus Christ. Can any man (or woman) say any of Christ's Apostles stopped being Israelites when they believed on Jesus? Didn't Jesus say that His 12 Apostles would each sit upon a throne judging the 12 tribes of Israel? That has to mean the Apostles will be on earth to do that after Christ's return! And per Paul in Ephesians 2, those Apostles makeup part of the 'foundation' of the Church. So how can such a stupid doctrine as Darby's dispensationalism be allowed to fool so many brethren?

You want proof where Christ's Church will reign from with Jesus at His coming? It's easy, it is written in Zechariah 14 coupled with the events of the "day of the Lord", which is the final day of this present world when Jesus comes to gather His saints. Jesus' feet are touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem on the day of His ONLY coming return, and there it is written He brings all the saints with Him to that spot. That is the "day of the Lord" timing, which is the final day of this present world. The tribulation is over at that point. And that is where Zechariah 14 speaks of His reigning from, on earth.

Well as is par for the course for those who reject the biblical pre-trib Rapture, you have mixed many lies with some partial truths.

As for the Kingdom being restored to Israel? anyone who denies this denies in the infallibility of the Word of God! This restoration after being scattered for their sin is the subject of an enormous amount of OT prophecy! Only those who alter the Word of God and make those prophecies then mean the church think otherwise.

As for the Church? Yes we are on e body comprised of saved jews and gentiles! But when the rapture occurs, the church age ends and the tribulation period begins sometime afterwards. these "tribulation saints" are saints but different from the church just as all OT saints are different than the church saints!

Most of you make Darby a straw man and love to attack him. Dispensationalism has moved on greatly from Darby and Scofield and Larkin. These were great men of God and only beginning to see the restoration of what we now call dispensational thought. And the church will reign with Jesus wherever He is. On earth or in heaven we are His queen?

And a "pre trib rapture is definitely written in Scripture! The tribulation period which is 7 years, is called teh wrath of God, the wrath of the Lamb, the time of Jacobs trouble, the tribulation, Gods wrath poured out etc.. No where will you find hell called Gods wrath or the lake of fire Gopds wrath. IN Thess. and Ephesians and Revelation the church is promised to be deliverd from the wrath and judgment to come. As we are already saved and given eternal security we know that this cannot be talking about teh lake of fire as itr is never called "wrath". Bu9t the tribulation is so called and that is what we will be delivered out of !

I agree Jesus returns to earth only once! The rapture is not a return of Jesus, but HIm simply coming down into either the first or second heaven and calling his church home! That is why we are shown in heaven in REv. 19 getting ready for our wedding to Jesus in heaven prior to His return!

 

[Nancy]

Right, that's what I mean by the Pre-tribulationalists wanting to have their cake and eat it too. The idea that when the kingdom of Israel is restored on earth when Jesus comes, and that means 'only' Israelites that did NOT believe, and then claiming the Israelites who 'did' believe are no longer Israelites, those are ideas in direct contradiction. The very idea about the Israel that is restored at Christ's coming is about Christ's Kingdom, as He is the rightful King of Israel, to sit upon David's throne, an earthly throne...

Luke 1:31-33
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call His name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David:

33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Amen, God gave to Christ all those who believe, all things are His and, I for one am very excited to see the new Earth. From what I recall, the New heavens and earth will come to pass after the thousand year reign of Christ on earth? Not sure where that leaves us at this time, are we in the thousand years already? I doubt it...unless, it is the end of the thousand year reign and Satan has been loosed for a little while, again.
I love eschatology and all it contains. Yet, it's still pretty confusing with all the timing of events. Poor study habits on my part, followed me throughout school as well. Right now, memorization of certain scriptures is on my plate. Maybe He will open the avenue for me to understand more of the deeper things of God.
God Bless!
Nancy

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Right, that's what I mean by the Pre-tribulationalists wanting to have their cake and eat it too. The idea that when the kingdom of Israel is restored on earth when Jesus comes, and that means 'only' Israelites that did NOT believe, and then claiming the Israelites who 'did' believe are no longer Israelites, those are ideas in direct contradiction. The very idea about the Israel that is restored at Christ's coming is about Christ's Kingdom, as He is the rightful King of Israel, to sit upon David's throne, an earthly throne...

Luke 1:31-33
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call His name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David:

33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Well on this thread you have continued your pattern of lying about pre-tribbers teach in the mainstream of dispensational eschatology!

We do not claim that unbelieving Israelites inherit the kingdom. I don't know of any major teacher who does!

The church age ends with the rapture and during the tribulation period 2/3 of all Jews on earth are killed! The remaining 1/3 all accept the Lord to fulfill Zech. 13 and Romans 11. they inherit the kingdom when Jesus returns. They are part of teh sheep that enter into teh kingdom and repopulate the earth!

And yes it is an earthly throne! Why do you continue to lie about dispensational theology? Is your believe in convenant and replacement theology so weak that you feel you can only bear false witness against those you disagree with?

 

[Davy]

I wouldn't dismiss me with a reference to Darby. I study the Bible, and I don't know much about Darby or what he thought.

Not everything in Darby's theory of Dispensationalism is written in The Bible. His idea of the restored kingdom of Israel on earth while Christ and His Church reign from Heaven is not written anywhere in God's Word.

Thus it is impossible... that you studied that idea from God's Word.

God removes the church from the earth, then brings all of Isreal to faith through great tribulation. Jesus returns with the church. Israel is gathered back to their land, now expanded. The gentiles are gathered and judged. The OT faithful are raised from the dead. David will be king over Isreal, the 12 Apostles judge the 12 tribes. The Israelites and the righteous gentiles live on into the kingdom, having children. Jesus, King of Kings, rules the world from the temple in Jerusalem, the nations come to Israel to worship. The risen serve Jesus in whatever capacity He wants, yes, on this earth.

I get all this from reading the Bible.

I realize you say... you got all that from God's Word, but really be honest, you didn't some of it. You got some of it from men's doctrines. Like many deceived brethren on man's Pre-trib Rapture doctrine, you've no doubt been listening to men's loose Bible interpretations for so long, that you can no longer tell the difference of what is actually written in The Word of God. I'm being honest when I say this, and not in order to belittle you, but in hopes that you will get down to disciplined Bible study for yourself more, asking Christ's help in understanding.

There is no Scripture about the Church being raptured prior to the great tribulation. Instead, Jesus taught in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that He comes to gather His Church AFTER... the tribulation, not before. And the gathering He showed there links directly to what Apostle Paul taught about Christ's gathering of the Church per 1 Thess.4.

Secondly, on the "day of the Lord", which is the final day of this present world, and the day that Jesus comes to gather His Church, that day also is the day He brings all the saints with Him to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, as per Zechariah 14. And there in Jerusalem, on earth, is where He and His saints begin to reign over all peoples and nations.

Thirdly, there will be no more marriages in the future kingdom of Christ when He comes. In Matthew 22:30 Jesus said those of the resurrection are 'as the angels of God in heaven', and they do not marry nor take in marriage. Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15 that we shall not all sleep, but we shall 'all' be changed. He was including the wicked too because he said also as we (man) have borne the image of the earthy, we (man) shall also bear the image of the heavenly. That's not just about Christ's Church. It's for all peoples, which Isaiah 25 hints at this, and is where Paul got the idea of death being swallowed up in victory.

Fourthly, after Jesus returns, the only... death mentioned to occur is the "second death", which is the casting into the future "lake of fire" at the end of His Millennium reign. There is no more flesh death after Jesus returns. The things of this flesh world will be over and done with, God's consuming fire burning them off this earth at Jesus' coming on the "day of the Lord". That means no more marriage and having children either. You got that idea of flesh re-population from not updating your understanding of the future per New Testament doctrine.

 

[Davy]

Well as is par for the course for those who reject the biblical pre-trib Rapture, you have mixed many lies with some partial truths.

Nothing Biblical about a pre-trib rapture theory, so you've started right off on the wrong foot. Listen to Lord Jesus, not man. In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Lord Jesus showed that His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation. And the gathering He said there links directly to what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the gathering of the Church.

 

[marks]

Not everything in Darby's theory of Dispensationalism is written in The Bible. His idea of the restored kingdom of Israel on earth while Christ and His Church reign from Heaven is not written anywhere in God's Word.

Thus it is impossible... that you studied that idea from God's Word.

You do understand I'm not saying this, right?

 

[marks]

but really be honest,

Oh, now you be honest!

 

[marks]

I'm being honest when I say this, and not in order to belittle you, but in hopes that you will get down to disciplined Bible study for yourself more, asking Christ's help in understanding.

The reality is that you are making a massive assumption, while in fact you know virtually nothing about me.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen, God gave to Christ all those who believe, all things are His and, I for one am very excited to see the new Earth. From what I recall, the New heavens and earth will come to pass after the thousand year reign of Christ on earth? Not sure where that leaves us at this time, are we in the thousand years already? I doubt it...unless, it is the end of the thousand year reign and Satan has been loosed for a little while, again.
I love eschatology and all it contains. Yet, it's still pretty confusing with all the timing of events. Poor study habits on my part, followed me throughout school as well. Right now, memorization of certain scriptures is on my plate. Maybe He will open the avenue for me to understand more of the deeper things of God.
God Bless!
Nancy

We cant be in the thousand year reign . Any guesses why .
Be encouraged . Lets open the bible .
During the thousand years , both the FP and Beast are already burning in the lake of fire .
ONLY satan is released from his pit at the end of the thousand years . For a short time indeed .
BUT then take a peek where he is cast . IN the lake of fire , WHERE both the FP and beast are and have been .
SO if we in the thousand years . SATAN would have been unable to decieve anything and the FP and beast are roasting in a lake of fire .
AND even if we were nigh the end where he is released , The FP and BEAST wont be there , they burning in a lake of fire .
PLUS , and here is the BIG one . At what time have the nations not been decieved . I aint ever even heard of that .
Deception has been around and never ceased . SO , nope the thousand years is still future . Be encoouraged nancy .
I LOVE that bible . IT WILL ALWAYS tell TRUTH . SING IT SISTER . SING TO THE KING and let us learn our bibles well .

 

[Nancy]

We cant be in the thousand year reign . Any guesses why .
Be encouraged . Lets open the bible .
During the thousand years , both the FP and Beast are already burning in the lake of fire .
ONLY satan is released from his pit at the end of the thousand years . For a short time indeed .
BUT then take a peek where he is cast . IN the lake of fire , WHERE both the FP and beast are and have been .
SO if we in the thousand years . SATAN would have been unable to decieve anything and the FP and beast are roasting in a lake of fire .
AND even if we were nigh the end where he is released , The FP and BEAST wont be there , they burning in a lake of fire .
PLUS , and here is the BIG one . At what time have the nations not been decieved . I aint ever even heard of that .
Deception has been around and never ceased . SO , nope the thousand years is still future . Be encoouraged nancy .
I LOVE that bible . IT WILL ALWAYS tell TRUTH . SING IT SISTER . SING TO THE KING and let us learn our bibles well .

Thank you Amigo,
I'm always singing to Him! That's where the joy comes in And neither have I ever heard of nations NOT being deceived. Still future...kind of thought so yet, have heard many differing "opinions"...and, yes, yes, yes! The Word is chock full of precious pearls to be sought out diligently! Amen.
Thank you and God Bless!
Nancy

 

[Davy]

Amen, God gave to Christ all those who believe, all things are His and, I for one am very excited to see the new Earth. From what I recall, the New heavens and earth will come to pass after the thousand year reign of Christ on earth? Not sure where that leaves us at this time, are we in the thousand years already? I doubt it...unless, it is the end of the thousand year reign and Satan has been loosed for a little while, again.
I love eschatology and all it contains. Yet, it's still pretty confusing with all the timing of events. Poor study habits on my part, followed me throughout school as well. Right now, memorization of certain scriptures is on my plate. Maybe He will open the avenue for me to understand more of the deeper things of God.
God Bless!
Nancy

Christ's "thousand years" reign with His elect will begin on the day of His return, which is the "day of the Lord". The new heavens and a new earth is not until after the "thousand years". The wicked who perish in the future "lake of fire" at the end of the "thousand years" won't see the new heavens and new earth.

Study in the OT prophets is really important to understand our Lord's Book of Revelation, and really all of the previous Books of God's Word. I'm a firm believer that if we discipline ourselves in line upon line Bible study, all the way through, then when we struggle later with a certain idea or Bible passage, The Holy Spirit will help us recall what we studied previously. So it's not like 'our' memory at work in it only, but an unlimited memory by The Holy Spirit helping us too. I've felt this when speaking with brethren before, when they mentioned how could I remember so much, and then I had to think about it. Not me, it's The Holy Spirit working.

This is why Lord Jesus told His elect that will be delivered up to not premeditate what they will say in that hour, but to speak what The Holy Spirit gives them to say.

 

[marks]

There is no Scripture about the Church being raptured prior to the great tribulation. Instead, Jesus taught in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that He comes to gather His Church AFTER... the tribulation, not before. And the gathering He showed there links directly to what Apostle Paul taught about Christ's gathering of the Church per 1 Thess.4.

You have the church appearing before it is revealed, I don't think it works that way.

What do you suppose that Jesus' hearers would understand when Jesus spoke of the chosen, and the nations? The chosen will be gathered, and the nations will be gathered?

Much love!