Church To Stay On Earth

[Davy]

One of the false doctrines the Pre-tribulationists have is the false idea that Christ raptures His Church to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation" Jesus foretold of in His Olivet discourse.

Then after Jesus' return to end the tribulation they believe Israel is then restored, on earth, while the Church reigns with Jesus, from Heaven.

That of course is not written in The Word of God, neither is a pre-trib rapture.

Both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles make up Christ's Church, and those believing Israelites don't stop being from the children of Israel just because they believe on Jesus Christ. Can any man (or woman) say any of Christ's Apostles stopped being Israelites when they believed on Jesus? Didn't Jesus say that His 12 Apostles would each sit upon a throne judging the 12 tribes of Israel? That has to mean the Apostles will be on earth to do that after Christ's return! And per Paul in Ephesians 2, those Apostles makeup part of the 'foundation' of the Church. So how can such a stupid doctrine as Darby's dispensationalism be allowed to fool so many brethren?

You want proof where Christ's Church will reign from with Jesus at His coming? It's easy, it is written in Zechariah 14 coupled with the events of the "day of the Lord", which is the final day of this present world when Jesus comes to gather His saints. Jesus' feet are touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem on the day of His ONLY coming return, and there it is written He brings all the saints with Him to that spot. That is the "day of the Lord" timing, which is the final day of this present world. The tribulation is over at that point. And that is where Zechariah 14 speaks of His reigning from, on earth.

 

[marks]

One of the false doctrines the Pre-tribulationists have is the false idea that Christ raptures His Church to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation" Jesus foretold of in His Olivet discourse.

Then after Jesus' return to end the tribulation they believe Israel is then restored, on earth, while the Church reigns with Jesus, from Heaven.

That of course is not written in The Word of God, neither is a pre-trib rapture.

Both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles make up Christ's Church, and those believing Israelites don't stop being from the children of Israel just because they believe on Jesus Christ. Can any man (or woman) say any of Christ's Apostles stopped being Israelites when they believed on Jesus? Didn't Jesus say that His 12 Apostles would each sit upon a throne judging the 12 tribes of Israel? That has to mean the Apostles will be on earth to do that after Christ's return! And per Paul in Ephesians 2, those Apostles makeup part of the 'foundation' of the Church. So how can such a stupid doctrine as Darby's dispensationalism be allowed to fool so many brethren?

You want proof where Christ's Church will reign from with Jesus at His coming? It's easy, it is written in Zechariah 14 coupled with the events of the "day of the Lord", which is the final day of this present world when Jesus comes to gather His saints. Jesus' feet are touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem on the day of His ONLY coming return, and there it is written He brings all the saints with Him to that spot. That is the "day of the Lord" timing, which is the final day of this present world. The tribulation is over at that point. And that is where Zechariah 14 speaks of His reigning from, on earth.

Hi Davy,

I guess there are those who say the church remains in heaven but I don't.

However . . . my 2 cents . . .

I think that when Jews become Christians, they stop being identified with National Israel, and are identified "in Christ". But that the time will come when God removes those "in Christ", and then begins His strange work to save His chosen nation as promised.

When Jesus returns, His body is with Him. The Apostles are raised to judge the tribes. David is raised king of Israel, and Jesus rules from Jerusalem over all the earth. And where He goes, we go.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Hi Davy,

I guess there are those who say the church remains in heaven but I don't.

However . . . my 2 cents . . .

I think that when Jews become Christians, they stop being identified with National Israel, and are identified "in Christ".

That would of course negate God's promises to the children of Israel. It would mean scrapping a whole lot of Old Testament prophecy that is set for the day of Christ's return and thereafter, and also certain New Testament prophecies that are 'only' to Israelite believers. Sorry but Pre-tribulationalists cannot have their cake and eat it too. Darby struggled with the restoration of Israel prophecies in God's OT prophets, which is also pointed to in The New Testament Books. The excuse that Israelites stop being Israelites to try and keep his pre-trib rapture theory to Heaven intact was only a vain excuse, and violates God's promises to Israel in His Word.

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

That promise by Christ is 'only' to those 12 Apostles of His, and they represent the part of the foundation of His Church. Those thrones won't be in Heaven. They will be on earth where Christ's throne will be, because Lord Jesus is to inherit David's throne, which is an earthly throne.

 

[Randy Kluth]

One of the false doctrines the Pre-tribulationists have is the false idea that Christ raptures His Church to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation" Jesus foretold of in His Olivet discourse.

Then after Jesus' return to end the tribulation they believe Israel is then restored, on earth, while the Church reigns with Jesus, from Heaven.

That of course is not written in The Word of God, neither is a pre-trib rapture.

Both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles make up Christ's Church, and those believing Israelites don't stop being from the children of Israel just because they believe on Jesus Christ. Can any man (or woman) say any of Christ's Apostles stopped being Israelites when they believed on Jesus? Didn't Jesus say that His 12 Apostles would each sit upon a throne judging the 12 tribes of Israel? That has to mean the Apostles will be on earth to do that after Christ's return! And per Paul in Ephesians 2, those Apostles makeup part of the 'foundation' of the Church. So how can such a stupid doctrine as Darby's dispensationalism be allowed to fool so many brethren?

You want proof where Christ's Church will reign from with Jesus at His coming? It's easy, it is written in Zechariah 14 coupled with the events of the "day of the Lord", which is the final day of this present world when Jesus comes to gather His saints. Jesus' feet are touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem on the day of His ONLY coming return, and there it is written He brings all the saints with Him to that spot. That is the "day of the Lord" timing, which is the final day of this present world. The tribulation is over at that point. And that is where Zechariah 14 speaks of His reigning from, on earth.

Davy, good argument. I completely agree with it.

As for my own beliefs, I think that the Great Tribulation is a term that Jesus originally applied to Jewish Christians and to the nation Israel. Israel had fallen into apostasy, and Jesus wanted to warn his followers what would happen to them with a fallen country and with hostile fellow Jews. This "Great Tribulation," as Jesus described it, would begin with the fall of Jerusalem (70 AD) and end on the last day of the age, when Jesus returns.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

When Jesus gave this Discourse, the Church was entirely Jewish! Israel was still the exclusive Chosen Nation! And so, Jesus gave a prophecy to the nation, regarding the NT age, and indicated great tribulation would befall the nation, in terms of their dispersion across the earth and seemingly endless diaspora. The believers among the Jews would not enjoy acceptance by their unbelieving brethren.

Non-Jewish Christians may learn from the example of Israel because in the NT era many nations have become Christian and now are falling, like Israel did, into apostasy. And genuine Christians will go through the same national upheavals and persecution. That's happening right now for me in America! All kinds of plagues are hitting the US for our sins, and the nation, instead of repenting, is turning on genuine Christians as the cause of all their problems!

In the last days I do think what is happening to me in America will be happening all over the world, in formerly Christian nations and also in pagan nations. We can expect more "great tribulations" to come! But if Christians have learned from Jesus' Discourse, and from the book of Revelation, they should know we are called to witness to Christ's righteousness during these stressful times! We will be here until he comes. Amen, brother!

 

[CharismaticLady]

When Jesus returns, His body is with Him.

From the rest of your post, it seems you may be pre-trib, or mid-trib., sometime before the second coming. But that would mean some of those in heaven before His return never died, so are not asleep. Sorry, Paul said Jesus comes back (second coming) with those who are asleep in Him, nothing about the alive, except those who are alive and remain on earth.

1 Thes. 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

If Paul ever meant there was a secret rapture he would have said so here. We wouldn't have to search all over to twist scripture like Revelation 4:1.

 

[marks]

From the rest of your post, it seems you may be pre-trib, or mid-trib., sometime before the second coming. But that would mean some of those in heaven before His return never died, so are not asleep. Sorry, Paul said Jesus comes back (second coming) with those who are asleep in Him, nothing about the alive, except those who are alive and remain on earth.

1 Thes. 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

I'm not sure I understand your objection.

Jesus brings with Him those who are asleep, to receive their physical resurrecton. Those who remain alive, these are caught up, being transformed into incorruptibility. And so all those in Christ receive the redemption of their bodies. This leaves the world without a witness, which I don't believe God does, and the 144,000 are sealed, and the two witnesses in Jerusalem begin to prophesy.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

From the rest of your post, it seems you may be pre-trib, or mid-trib., sometime before the second coming. But that would mean some of those in heaven before His return never died, so are not asleep. Sorry, Paul said Jesus comes back (second coming) with those who are asleep in Him, nothing about the alive, except those who are alive and remain on earth.

1 Thes. 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

If Paul ever meant there was a secret rapture he would have said so here. We wouldn't have to search all over to twist scripture like Revelation 4:1.

It's interesting that Paul said the living, still on earth, will not "precede" those who are dead and in heaven with Christ. What do you think it is that Paul sees the living could do before the dead?

It appears to me that Paul is talking about participation in our destiny in the Kingdom of God on earth. The living are already on earth, and close to reigning here. The dead are in heaven, and not close to reigning here. Paul seems to be saying that even though the living are already on earth, they will not begin to reign until after the dead join us alive on earth?

If so, then the emphasis is not on going to heaven in the Rapture as much as on what the Rapture will enable us all to do on earth, which is reign on earth. The Rapture, at any rate, does not appear to be a race with the dead to get to heaven, since the dead are already there. Why would it be that the living can be quicker to be glorified than the dead, who are already with Christ in heaven?

We are trying to simultaneously, living and dead, be glorified with new immortal bodies so that we can exercise dominion over the earth. How that dominion takes place on earth, and where we will actually reign from, I can't begin to know!

 

[marks]

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

That promise by Christ is 'only' to those 12 Apostles of His, and they represent the part of the foundation of His Church. Those thrones won't be in Heaven. They will be on earth where Christ's throne will be, because Lord Jesus is to inherit David's throne, which is an earthly throne.

As a pre-tribber, I don't have an issue with this.

Yes, the Apostles will judge the tribes, in the restored National Israel. Natural men - Israelites - will be judged by the resurrected Apostles, and King David will be resurrected the king of Israel. And Jesus is King of Kings.

Something interesting occurs to me.

1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

The Apostle's names will be written on the foundations of the Heavenly City. In this passage above, we are builded directly on the foundation of Christ.

@charity looking for your thoughts here . . .

Partly what I think Pre-Trib is that I do expect the OT prophecies to be fulfilled, and it seems to me this is how that happens.

I am dispensational in my thinking, recognizing that while salvation is always by grace through faith, yet at different times God gives a new message that is to be believed. Abraham believed his descendants would outnumber the stars. The Israelites believed that offering a sacrifice would restore relationship with God. And we believe we come alive in Christ.

What will the 2 witnesses prophesy during their ministry? Will they give a new message?

Why are the sheep and goats judged righteous or unrighteous based on their works? And why does that judgment not include the Israelites? These questions are, I think, best answered by simply following the Biblical narrative as it develops, and we see these changes come.

144,000 are sealed, 12,000 each from twelve tribes. An interesting thing in that passage, John says the servants of God were sealed in their forehead, and there are 144,000 if them, and they are all Jews. Seeing as Christians are in general in the New Testament the "servants of God", how is it that at this time, there are only 144,000 and they are all Jews?

Unless the church has just been removed?

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

One of the false doctrines the Pre-tribulationists have is the false idea that Christ raptures His Church to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation" Jesus foretold of in His Olivet discourse.

Then after Jesus' return to end the tribulation they believe Israel is then restored, on earth, while the Church reigns with Jesus, from Heaven.

That of course is not written in The Word of God, neither is a pre-trib rapture.

Both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles make up Christ's Church, and those believing Israelites don't stop being from the children of Israel just because they believe on Jesus Christ. Can any man (or woman) say any of Christ's Apostles stopped being Israelites when they believed on Jesus? Didn't Jesus say that His 12 Apostles would each sit upon a throne judging the 12 tribes of Israel? That has to mean the Apostles will be on earth to do that after Christ's return! And per Paul in Ephesians 2, those Apostles makeup part of the 'foundation' of the Church. So how can such a stupid doctrine as Darby's dispensationalism be allowed to fool so many brethren?

You want proof where Christ's Church will reign from with Jesus at His coming? It's easy, it is written in Zechariah 14 coupled with the events of the "day of the Lord", which is the final day of this present world when Jesus comes to gather His saints. Jesus' feet are touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem on the day of His ONLY coming return, and there it is written He brings all the saints with Him to that spot. That is the "day of the Lord" timing, which is the final day of this present world. The tribulation is over at that point. And that is where Zechariah 14 speaks of His reigning from, on earth.

Very well said Davy,

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Amen...yes Jew and Gentile = one in Christ. But that does not mean there won't be different 'roles', positions and levels...on the new earth when He puts all His enemies under His feet. The apostles will, as you said, be ruling over the 12 tribes.
The pre-tribbers have Him returning twice! Sad to think I believed that only because somebody on a 'stage' taught it. Wished I were a Berean back then!

 

[CharismaticLady]

I'm not sure I understand your objection.

Jesus brings with Him those who are asleep, to receive their physical resurrecton. Those who remain alive, these are caught up, being transformed into incorruptibility. And so all those in Christ receive the redemption of their bodies. This leaves the world without a witness, which I don't believe God does, and the 144,000 are sealed, and the two witnesses in Jerusalem begin to prophesy.

Much love!

What do you mean without a witness? The Church is here!

 

[CharismaticLady]

It's interesting that Paul said the living, still on earth, will not "precede" those who are dead and in heaven with Christ. What do you think it is that Paul sees the living could do before the dead?

It appears to me that Paul is talking about participation in our destiny in the Kingdom of God on earth. The living are already on earth, and close to reigning here. The dead are in heaven, and not close to reigning here. Paul seems to be saying that even though the living are already on earth, they will not begin to reign until after the dead join us alive on earth?

If so, then the emphasis is not on going to heaven in the Rapture as much as on what the Rapture will enable us all to do on earth, which is reign on earth. The Rapture, at any rate, does not appear to be a race with the dead to get to heaven, since the dead are already there. Why would it be that the living can be quicker to be glorified than the dead, who are already with Christ in heaven?

We are trying to simultaneously, living and dead, be glorified with new immortal bodies so that we can exercise dominion over the earth. How that dominion takes place on earth, and where we will actually reign from, I can't begin to know!

The problem that Paul is addressing is that some of the Christians believed if someone died, they missed the second coming. Paul comforted them with the truth.

Paul seems to be saying that even though the living are already on earth, they will not begin to reign until after the dead join us alive on earth?

Correct.

Why would it be that the living can be quicker to be glorified than the dead, who are already with Christ in heaven?

Wrong. "And the dead in Christ will rise first."

 

[Nancy]

It's interesting that Paul said the living, still on earth, will not "precede" those who are dead and in heaven with Christ. What do you think it is that Paul sees the living could do before the dead?

It appears to me that Paul is talking about participation in our destiny in the Kingdom of God on earth. The living are already on earth, and close to reigning here. The dead are in heaven, and not close to reigning here. Paul seems to be saying that even though the living are already on earth, they will not begin to reign until after the dead join us alive on earth?

If so, then the emphasis is not on going to heaven in the Rapture as much as on what the Rapture will enable us all to do on earth, which is reign on earth. The Rapture, at any rate, does not appear to be a race with the dead to get to heaven, since the dead are already there. Why would it be that the living can be quicker to be glorified than the dead, who are already with Christ in heaven?

We are trying to simultaneously, living and dead, be glorified with new immortal bodies so that we can exercise dominion over the earth. How that dominion takes place on earth, and where we will actually reign from, I can't begin to know!

Hi Randy!
To me it seems the dead will meet Jesus with us in the air, my own belief is that the dead will be with Jesus already, in the clouds waiting for us to join them?

"The living are already on earth, and close to reigning here. The dead are in heaven, and not close to reigning here. Paul seems to be saying that even though the living are already on earth, they will not begin to reign until after the dead join us alive on earth?"

1 Thess 4:16-17
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

JMO

 

[amadeus]

What do you mean without a witness? The Church is here!

Indeed!

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are" John 17:11

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt 5:14-16

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hi Randy!
To me it seems the dead will meet Jesus with us in the air, my own belief is that the dead will be with Jesus already, in the clouds waiting for us to join them?

"The living are already on earth, and close to reigning here. The dead are in heaven, and not close to reigning here. Paul seems to be saying that even though the living are already on earth, they will not begin to reign until after the dead join us alive on earth?"

1 Thess 4:16-17
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

JMO

and @Davy

Davy, I'm glad you posted this, because when I rechecked Revelation 20, I found that I had previously made a mistake, and this gave me an opportunity to correct my belief. A belief that I came to a few years ago, and was wrong.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Indeed!

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are" John 17:11

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt 5:14-16

Amen!

 

[Randy Kluth]

The problem that Paul is addressing is that some of the Christians believed if someone died, they missed the second coming. Paul comforted them with the truth.
Correct.
Wrong. "And the dead in Christ will rise first."

You misunderstand. I'm actually agreeing with you. How is it, I'm saying rhetorically, "that the living can be quicker to be glorified than the dead, who are already with Christ in heaven?"

In other words, Paul could not have thought that this was a race to see who can be glorified 1st, the dead or the living, because the dead would win hands down--they were already with Christ in heaven.

So it has to be a race to see who can start reigning on earth 1st, the dead or the living, and it looks as if the living would win that race. Therefore, Paul corrects this notion by insisting it's not a race at all, that the living will not win that race, because both dead and living must go to heaven and be transformed, or "glorified," 1st.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy!
To me it seems the dead will meet Jesus with us in the air, my own belief is that the dead will be with Jesus already, in the clouds waiting for us to join them?

Exactly, I think Charismatic Lady misunderstood my rhetoric. I was asking the question, rhetorically, whether this was a race as to who would get to heaven 1st, or a race as to who would get to earth 1st. My thought is that the dead are already in heaven, with Christ, and would win, hands down, any race to get to heaven 1st!

So it isn't about a race to get to heaven and be glorified. Rather, it is a race as to who will get to start reigning on earth 1st. And since the living are already on earth, it seems they would win that race hands down. However, Jesus does not want this to be a race as to who starts reigning on earth 1st. Rather, he wants us all, living and dead, to start reigning at the exact same time, as one body. And so, we will all meet in heaven, for one second, and be transformed into glorified bodies, and then start reigning on earth at exactly the same time.

I know...it seems like an insignificant detail. However, with all this emphasis on getting to heaven, I thought I would put the emphasis on getting to earth to reign, and just meeting in heaven for a brief moment to be glorified.

"The living are already on earth, and close to reigning here. The dead are in heaven, and not close to reigning here. Paul seems to be saying that even though the living are already on earth, they will not begin to reign until after the dead join us alive on earth?"

1 Thess 4:16-17
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

JMO [/QUOTE]

 

[Truman]

From the rest of your post, it seems you may be pre-trib, or mid-trib., sometime before the second coming. But that would mean some of those in heaven before His return never died, so are not asleep. Sorry, Paul said Jesus comes back (second coming) with those who are asleep in Him, nothing about the alive, except those who are alive and remain on earth.

1 Thes. 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

If Paul ever meant there was a secret rapture he would have said so here. We wouldn't have to search all over to twist scripture like Revelation 4:1.

Hi. You said that the dead in Christ will return with Him. I never thought about that before. I'm seeking the Lord on this one. You see, I was a little perplexed about a vision He gave me. Briefly (I can hear the scepticism, and laughing from those who know me, you briefly? lol), He took me to a night sky where an army on horseback was riding on the clouds. I was in this army. I found that Jude 14 (1 Enoch 1:9) tells of this vision.
See if I've got it. Jesus returns with those who were dead in Him to catch up the living believers. Perhaps He may lead them to the earth after a while to remove all evil. Either that or He will return with them at a later date to do this.
When He returns is something I don't think about much. I call it the resurrection. I don't have a theory about pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. Though I know He is returning.
First off, the word church was used by the King James translators to replace the correct translation of ekklesia to congregation. The word church means a house of a lord, which is what it has become. I don't know why they did it.
I believe that much of today's church (as well as the West) is descended from the House of Israel who was exiled by God 2,800 years ago for worshipping false gods. God made a promise that in the latter days He would wake up their descendants to who they were, beginning with the Levites.
Insane as it may sound, He told me that I was a Levite 3 times during the 90s (I didn't understand then) and late last year He led me to a historical documentary on the exiles which ended at the same time and place that my parent's family tree went back to. I've found information online that says my last name originated in the same place, which was Normandy. Though I suspect it was in use by the lost Hebrews before they entered the British Isles and Scandinavia.
I believe that there will be a restoration of the 12 tribes of the nation of Israel. Those who have faith in Messiah/Christ. I refer to when God takes the 2 sticks and makes them one in His hand. See Ezekiel 37:19. Those who are left will make up the body of Christ.
So there will be the Body, the restored 12 Tribes, the 144,000, and all of God's holy angels. Can you imagine the party? The marriage of the Lamb and if we are His, we will be there.
No more sickness, no more pain or sorrow. New bodies like Jesus has. Eternity to spend with our God. The blessed hope that will not disappoint. No death and no sin. No enemy. I think I'm missing much of it. It will be a surprise. Hallelujah!
"And the Spirit and the Bride say come!" And let him who hears say, "Come." Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17 NKJV Shalom.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hi. You said that the dead in Christ will return with Him. I never thought about that before. I'm seeking the Lord on this one. You see, I was a little perplexed about a vision He gave me. Briefly (I can hear the scepticism, and laughing from those who know me, you briefly? lol), He took me to a night sky where an army on horseback was riding on the clouds. I was in this army. I found that Jude 14 (1 Enoch 1:9) tells of this vision.
See if I've got it. Jesus returns with those who were dead in Him to catch up the living believers. Perhaps He may lead them to the earth after a while to remove all evil. Either that or He will return with them at a later date to do this.
When He returns is something I don't think about much. I call it the resurrection. I don't have a theory about pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. Though I know He is returning.
First off, the word church was used by the King James translators to replace the correct translation of ekklesia to congregation. The word church means a house of a lord, which is what it has become. I don't know why they did it.
I believe that much of today's church (as well as the West) is descended from the House of Israel who was exiled by God 2,800 years ago for worshipping false gods. God made a promise that in the latter days He would wake up their descendants to who they were, beginning with the Levites.
Insane as it may sound, He told me that I was a Levite 3 times during the 90s (I didn't understand then) and late last year He led me to a historical documentary on the exiles which ended at the same time and place that my parent's family tree went back to. I've found information online that says my last name originated in the same place, which was Normandy. Though I suspect it was in use by the lost Hebrews before they entered the British Isles and Scandinavia.
I believe that there will be a restoration of the 12 tribes of the nation of Israel. Those who have faith in Messiah/Christ. I refer to when God takes the 2 sticks and makes them one in His hand. See Ezekiel 37:19. Those who are left will make up the body of Christ.
So there will be the Body, the restored 12 Tribes, the 144,000, and all of God's holy angels. Can you imagine the party? The marriage of the Lamb and if we are His, we will be there.
No more sickness, no more pain or sorrow. New bodies like Jesus has. Eternity to spend with our God. The blessed hope that will not disappoint. No death and no sin. No enemy. I think I'm missing much of it. It will be a surprise. Hallelujah!
"And the Spirit and the Bride say come!" And let him who hears say, "Come." Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17 NKJV Shalom.

I believe in a 7 year tribulation period that begins with revealing of the Antichrist. That is the deadline for any Gentiles to come into the Church. It is called "when the fullness of the Gentiles come in, then all Israel will be saved." Romans 11. If you look at Revelation 8, this could be fulfilled on April 13, 2029. Seeing as that is the end of the tribulation, just before Christ returns, the Antichrist and the deadline will begin in 2022. Just think Jesus could be here in our lifetime!

 

[Truman]

I believe in a 7 year tribulation period that begins with revealing of the Antichrist. That is the deadline for any Gentiles to come into the Church. It is called "when the fullness of the Gentiles come in, then all Israel will be saved." Romans 11. If you look at Revelation 8, this could be fulfilled on April 13, 2029. Seeing as that is the end of the tribulation, just before Christ returns, the Antichrist and the deadline will begin in 2022. Just think Jesus could be here in our lifetime!

Over the years I've heard all kinds of predictions and never paid much attention to them. But I believe we are in the last days. I also believe that up ahead is a tsunami of the Holy Spirit which I call the Harvest wave. When He first showed it to me in '96 I thought it would be here by the following weekend. There was a real sense of urgency that came with it. The last time He showed it to me it was much closer. In it were President Trump and an F-16 jet. "It's growing larger, it's getting nearer, oh can't you see it straight ahead? I can see a wave, the Harvest Wave." Part of a song the Lord inspired me to write 19 years ago. Shalom. P.S. What you're saying here reminds me of the book of Revelation. I won't be surprised if He does come back after the tribulation. One way or another, we are going to find out. Bye.