Church To Stay On Earth

[marks]

is what will be revealed for all peoples on that day of Christ's coming. This flesh death will be over for all peoples. Yet that still is not Christ's Salvation. It's only a manifesting of the resurrection body, or "spiritual body", or "image of the heavenly".

Paul also taught two required changes in 1 Cor.15 to have eternal life through Christ, per 1 Corinthians 15:54. Just as Lord Jesus showed the blind Pharisees were like whited tombs outside but inside were full of dead men's bones, that's the idea of being without Christ. The non-believer is actually spiritually dead inside their flesh; their soul is in a liable to perish condition without Christ. The liable to die soul Paul defined as "this mortal". It has to put on immortality by Faith on Jesus Christ. But the body of incorruption, which is the "spiritual body" or resurrection body, that is for everyone. It is only the outward image body in the heavenly. It is what the angels have, even Satan and his angels. God can still destroy it in the future "lake of fire", called the "second death". That is what those of the "resurrection of damnation" will still be subject to throughout Christ's future 1,000 years reign.

Interestingly, I've never heard this POV before. But this is what I love about a good Christian forum! And BTW . . . I've wanted to tell you I've really been appreciating our discussion!

At the end of the millennium, is there then the final battle, and Satan at last defeated and cast into the lake of fire? This is what I've thought, and that the final enemy is defeated after this enemy, and death is likewise cast into the lake of fire.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Is there a question you'd like to ask, or a point to make, or continue to make assumptions about me?

Because if you and I are both truly born again, we're seated at table in the heavens together right now. If we could see through the veil we would see that. We know that we HAVE a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens. We're going to be clothed upon with that house. Yes, I think we have a dual existence. I believe that I think that more concretely than most people I know. But what of it?

We have a difference of opinion on timelines I think, primarily, and a bit of a difference on ecclesiology. I think it's safe to say you are more covenantal and I'm more dispensational.

I had a fascinating discussion with Scott A some months ago about the material and spiritual aspects of the resurrection, and in what flesh we are raised. It is very interesting to think about! Mostly I like the place that says "the body of our humiliation will be made like His glorious body". I'm looking forward to that!!



Much love!

Not meaning to offend, but I find the majority of brethren haven't studied 1 Cor.15 very thoroughly.

My understanding of the "spiritual body" of 1 Cor.15 is like Paul said, in the present tense, there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44). Does Clint Walker's testimony agree with that? Yes, it does. So it's not like it's something that will have to be made or created anew when Jesus comes. It means our flesh is merely cast off on that day, and suddenly we find ourselves in the heavenly dimension, just like Clint Walker suddenly found himself in his spirit body. So what physical component kept him from dying? What was not separated? It was his "silver cord"; it was still intact. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 reveals there is a "silver cord" that attaches our spirit (w. soul) to our flesh body, and if it is severed, then our flesh goes back to the earth, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. This is why Lord Jesus showed in John 3 that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. So we have those two parts existing right now while alive on earth. In 2 Cor.5, Paul revealed this also when he said that if our earthly house were dissolved, we have another building of God, eternal in the heavens. He was speaking of a body we already have, inside our flesh.

 

[marks]

I see it as the fulfillment of the Isaiah 42:7 prophecy, the prison house being a symbol for the heavenly pit prison.

Some doctrines of men assign those "spirits in prison" as being evil spirits, and that Jesus was only proclaiming His victory over them by that event. I don't agree with that, especially with Peter's follow up on it in the next chapter.

I agree with you on this. I'm not sure what you mean by heavenly pit prison, I think in terms of Jesus going to Sheol, Abraham's bosom, and preaching there.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

So then in actuality, not two gatherings, but a single gathering of all people on the earth, and then a separation between the sheep and the goats, the sheep being the same people as the elect in 24:31? Is that correct?

Much love!

I don't see that as another event after His coming. The idea He says there for His sheep to come and inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world points directly to Christ's Church per Eph.1.

Also, the goats are shown going in the lake of fire then. But that's not the order of events in Rev.20. There's a 1,000 years period in between which Lord Jesus didn't mention there.

 

[Davy]

And the millennial kingdom follows this?

Much love!

The millennium kingdom immediately begins on that day. The cleansing and building of the Millennial sanctuary in Jerusalem will also begin then.

 

[marks]

Not meaning to offend, but I find the majority of brethren haven't studied 1 Cor.15 very thoroughly.

Personally, I think many people who discuss these things haven't studied in very much depth, and don't realize the implications of their views when trying to harmonize with the rest of the Bible. But between you and I, it's just whatever we are saying about what the Bible says.

Does Clint Walker's testimony agree with that? Yes, it does.

And on that note, I have to say, I really stick to the Bible on this stuff.

He was speaking of a body we already have, inside our flesh.

Everything I'm seeing here is that this is refering to a sequence, first the one, and then the other.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

It is sown, and it is raised.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

We shall . . . future

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

These all speaks to me of something being added that results in transformation.

Putting on the new man and putting off the old man, this to me means, letting the reality of the existance of the new man overwhelm my life, conforming me to its design. Putting off the old man is to stop letting this false reality overwhelm my life, and stop letting it conform me to its design. To me it's a matter the new overcoming and transforming the old, the renewing of the mind.

In the corruptible putting on incorruption, I see in this the redemption of the body, not that it goes away, rather, that it is transformed.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Interestingly, I've never heard this POV before. But this is what I love about a good Christian forum! And BTW . . . I've wanted to tell you I've really been appreciating our discussion!

At the end of the millennium, is there then the final battle, and Satan at last defeated and cast into the lake of fire? This is what I've thought, and that the final enemy is defeated after this enemy, and death is likewise cast into the lake of fire.

Much love!

I love to think about our Heavenly Father's and His Son's future Kingdom, and the world to come. He actually told us quite a bit about it, but most of the time we pass over it.

If you look at the 1 Cor.15:53 verse in the Greek, you'll find that Paul used 4 different Greek words about the change:

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

1st Change:
"corruptible" = flesh body
"incorruption" = spiritual body

AND:

2nd Change:
"this mortal" = soul/spirit still liable to die
"immortality" = deathlessness, eternal life in Christ

Only those in Christ Jesus go through both changes. But the unsaved go only through the 1st change, their spirit/soul will still be in a liable to perish condition, which is what the idea of the "dead" in Rev.20:5 is actually about. It's about a spiritually dead mortal soul still liable to die at the "second death".

 

[Davy]

I agree with you on this. I'm not sure what you mean by heavenly pit prison, I think in terms of Jesus going to Sheol, Abraham's bosom, and preaching there.

Much love!

Satan's pit prison. Hades apparently has different levels. The terms like bottomless pit, the abyss, haides, etc., I see as simply names for Satan's place in the heavenly dimension. I definitely do not adhere to any idea that the abode of hell is underneath the earth nor any such idea as that. It is in the heavenly dimension, in a place of separation, just like we have prisons today for criminals in places of separation.

One should note Revelation 12:7-9 which shows where Satan and his are cast out from, and that there is no more place found for them there. It shows Satan's abode is in the heavenly dimension.

 

[Davy]

Personally, I think many people who discuss these things haven't studied in very much depth, and don't realize the implications of their views when trying to harmonize with the rest of the Bible. But between you and I, it's just whatever we are saying about what the Bible says.

Somewhat, maybe.

And on that note, I have to say, I really stick to the Bible on this stuff.

I do too, which was my point. His testimony sticks to what God's Word reveals too. Eccl.12:5-7, and Matt.10:28, and John 3, and 2 Cor.5, and 1 Cor.15, and 2 Cor.12, and Luke 16, all reveal the existence of the two separate bodies, belonging to two distinct and different dimensions of existence.

Everything I'm seeing here is that this is refering to a sequence, first the one, and then the other.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

It is sown, and it is raised.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

We shall . . . future

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

These all speaks to me of something being added that results in transformation.

Putting on the new man and putting off the old man, this to me means, letting the reality of the existance of the new man overwhelm my life, conforming me to its design. Putting off the old man is to stop letting this false reality overwhelm my life, and stop letting it conform me to its design. To me it's a matter the new overcoming and transforming the old, the renewing of the mind.

In the corruptible putting on incorruption, I see in this the redemption of the body, not that it goes away, rather, that it is transformed.

Much love!

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, Matthew 10:28, and John 3:6 tells me that we have both already, which is how at flesh death our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit/soul goes back to God Who gave it. When the heavenly was opened up to Isaiah in Isaiah 6, and he saw God on His throne in Heaven, that was his spirit that saw that, not his flesh. Same thing here...

2 Cor 12:2-4
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV

I know this subject scares a lot of folks. But the reality is that two different dimensions exist in God's creation. And in our near future, this present earthly dimension is going to change, being meshed with the heavenly dimension with the casting off our flesh. God once dwelt upon this earth, as shown by His Garden of Eden which is His Paradise. It was once upon this earth and is going to return. Now John 4 says He is a Spirit, yet He made us in His image likeness. We look like Him, He looks like us. But He doesn't have a flesh body, doesn't need one, as He existed before this material dimension was even created. So I don't have any problem understanding that the heavenly dimension of existence is actually the more real than this material one.

 

[marks]

I know this subject scares a lot of folks. But the reality is that two different dimensions exist in God's creation. And in our near future, this present earthly dimension is going to change, being meshed with the heavenly dimension with the casting off our flesh.

This doesn't frighten me, it's just the medium we live in. The heavenly, that is.

I don't see this taking away the veil until the new heaven and the new earth, after the judgment, after the 1000 year reign.

I don't think people have that celestial body like in 2 Corinthians 5 until being born from above, to become a spirit child of God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Same thing here...

2 Cor 12:2-4
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV

Yet Paul says that he didn't know whether this fellow went to bodily or not.

?

 

[marks]

1st Change:
"corruptible" = flesh body
"incorruption" = spiritual body

AND:

2nd Change:
"this mortal" = soul/spirit still liable to die
"immortality" = deathlessness, eternal life in Christ

Corruptible = subject to the law of sin and death
Mortal = subject to the law of sin and death

Spiritual we have become incorruptible and immortal. Then it will be physically.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I don't see that as another event after His coming. The idea He says there for His sheep to come and inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world points directly to Christ's Church per Eph.1.

Also, the goats are shown going in the lake of fire then. But that's not the order of events in Rev.20. There's a 1,000 years period in between which Lord Jesus didn't mention there.

The sheep and goats are separated according to whether they did or didn't care for Jesus' brothers. Who are Jesus' brothers in this text?

My thinking is that Jesus defeats the beast, gathers Israel, takes His throne, and gathers the nations. Then He judges the nations based on whether they helped the Jews during the great tribulation or stood by and did nothing. Those who helped them are declared righteous and allowed to enter the kingdom. Those who did not are rejected.

Personally, I don't see where this doesn't fit with exactly what these passages say, and is likewise supported by other passages, such as Joel 3.

Much love!

 

[charity]

As a pre-tribber, I don't have an issue with this.

Yes, the Apostles will judge the tribes, in the restored National Israel. Natural men - Israelites - will be judged by the resurrected Apostles, and King David will be resurrected the king of Israel. And Jesus is King of Kings.

Something interesting occurs to me.

1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

The Apostle's names will be written on the foundations of the Heavenly City. In this passage above, we are builded directly on the foundation of Christ.

@charity looking for your thoughts here . . .

Hello @marks,

Thank you for calling me in to read this.

I will be back God willing.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Nothing Biblical about a pre-trib rapture theory, so you've started right off on the wrong foot. Listen to Lord Jesus, not man. In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Lord Jesus showed that His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation. And the gathering He said there links directly to what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the gathering of the Church.

YOur error is you conflate the term elect with the church! In reality it would be saved Israel and teh save gentiles from the rapture to teh return of the Lord that are still alive at the end of the trib period.

Also you ignore many other posts that directly point to the church not being in the Tribulation period!.

Rev. 3: 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

We know this has to be the tribulation period because there never has been a global trial by god yet! Also if the church goes through th etribulation, then God lied here for millions will die in the tribulation period.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1. Revelation 6:16
   And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Revelation 6:17
   For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

You will not find the term wrath defining hell or the lake of fire! But when spoken of it is always God pouring His wrath out on people on this earth!

And 1 thess. 5:9 is not salvation but deliverance out of! It is soteria which primarily means deliverance out of! Sozo is the word for salvation from our sin!

We need to look at more than just a few verses, but take into account more counsel from Scripture to understand that we will be snatched off the earth before the trib starts, will underggo the bema judgment, receive our crowns and robes of righteousness, wed Jesus in heaven and then return to earth with Him as shown in REv. 19!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I am not lying. It's actually 'you' that is lying against the Scriptures with trying to support Pre-tribulationalism and Darby's theories of Dispensationalism. If you had actually understood the Luke 1:31-33 Scripture, you would have admitted that the kingdom Jesus reigns over will be... the 'kingdom of Israel'! Here's more Scripture proof...

YOu are obsessed with Darby! I have nothing to do with Him.

You are in love with Augustine and His amillenial thought. I can play that game as well.

YOu still need to answer the Scriptures that show the church will not be in teh Tribulation! YOU haven't yet and still just vomit your old Darbymania and calling people liars!

There is no such thing as a Church throne in Heaven that Jesus will reign from.

I never said there wasd! thatr is a straw man of your creation in this debate so you can beat a falsehood!

Men's doctrines again. There is no such thing as Darby's 'Church Ages' idea, that's a doctrine of men. Each one of Christ's Messages to the seven Churches in Revelation are Messages still in effect today for ALL Churches! That cancels Dispensationalist ideas that each one of those Messages represents a certain "Church age".

Once again- if you wish to keep quoting Darby or supposedly quote Darby- debate his grave site. Other wise pay attention to what I say!

The seven letters to the seven churches have a three fold meaning.
1. actual letters to actual churchjes.
2. Seven attitudes believers have in all eras fo the church age.
3. Based on teh meanings of the names of the churches and simply reading church history- we see seven eras within the church age where the attitude of that particular church dominates the time frame. That is simple history and beyond refute!

POst trib rapture is also a doctrine of men. You will not find that term in SCripture nor will you find a post trib snatching away in Scripture. These are terms believers use to describe events SCripture talks about. Same with the Word Trinity. If you are going to be so straining at gnats- Never refer to God as a Trinity again for that is a man made term!

 

[marks]

Hello @marks,

Thank you for calling me in to read this.

I will be back God willing.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

In considing the rapture debate in relation to the things we've been discussing, this has given me a lot of food for thought. I really appreciate the knowledge of the topic that you bring to the table!

One of the things I've been thinking about is that Paul was nonetheless the apostle to the gentiles, and addressed gentile churches in a number of topics that continue in application to the church in general, and in the specifics of our salvation and God's plan for us, I'm wondering why this doctrine would not?

John of course also teaches of this living transformation, When we see Him, we will be like Him. The address of his letter is simply, "my children", and he calls them beloved.

OK, this is a window into some half-formed thoughts anyway . . .

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

YOU haven't yet and still just vomit your old Darbymania and calling people liars!

When people have no leg to stand on, then they attack personalities. Even if John Nelson Darby had never been born, Bible truth would remain what it was since it was written down.

Davy has no idea about this matter, since he claims that the Church will remain on earth, in opposition to what the Bible says.

 

[marks]

The seven letters to the seven churches have a three fold meaning.
1. actual letters to actual churchjes.
2. Seven attitudes believers have in all eras fo the church age.
3. Based on teh meanings of the names of the churches and simply reading church history- we see seven eras within the church age where the attitude of that particular church dominates the time frame. That is simple history and beyond refute!

I think also that the 7 letters show a potential "life cycle" of a church. I remember someone talking about, "from a man, to a mission, to a movement, to a monument". But in more detail than that.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I think also that the 7 letters show a potential "life cycle" of a church. I remember someone talking about, "from a man, to a mission, to a movement, to a monument". But in more detail than that.

Much love!

It can!

A church can go from being an Ephesus church (beloved)

Then to a Smyrnan church sufferings persecution (bitter)

Then onto a Pergamos (mixed marriage) church that is entangled too much with Govt. and the world.

I only know of one Thyatiran church (perpetual sacrifice)

Then a church can be Sardis (escaping) if they wake back up after being spiritually asleep

I love Philadeplphian churches (brotherly love) they are mission minded

Then to Laodecia which is the age we live in now (people rule) the churches generally are lukewarm! We have many lively churches but when you look at all the reformation churches, they have sound statemetn fo faith but are dead inside.