Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Yes, ultimately, at the Judgment, faith that is alone means you did not really have faith in this life. The lack of righteous works being the evidence and proof of that.
The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS
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If there are steps needed to ensure salvation, how can it be secure? That's conditional salvation.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I can tell what's inside a man's heart by what comes out of his mouth. But this teaching about recognizing true saving faith by the works it produces is mainly for the individual person to test himself to see if he is in the faith or not. I'm entitled to decide if I should trust a person as a fellow believer or not, but ultimately, I do not pass judgment on them. I can only discern their behavior and respond accordingly. This is what 1 John is all about. Knowing that you have eternal life and discerning if others do. And you do that by looking at behavior.
There are very few who have "genuinely surrendered their lives to Christ - folks like Mother Theresa. There are many Christians who follow man made dogma and think they are being Obedient to God and Christ - but they are not.
Taken
Well-Known Member
According to Jesus;
Salvation is for Heartful Belief and His Conversion.
According to you;
Judgement for no works, means No Salvation.
According to Jesus;
Salvation is for Heartful Belief.
Conversion is the Receiving of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and Born Again spirit.
According to Jesus;
Men will be Judged...
The Saved & Born Again Risen in Glory.
The Unsaved Risen to Damnation.
All Works Judged...
Of the Saved, All Works rewarded, THAT DID Glorified God.
OF the Saved, All Works Burned, THAT DID NOT Glorify God.
OF the Unsaved, All Works Burned.
According to you, The Saved without Works, are NOT Saved.
According To James 2:
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not (justified)
by faith only.
You have taken James 2 out of Context.
There are TWO Justifications OF TWO things FOR TWO things.
• Justification # 1
Salvation/Born Again spirit
FOR Belief & Conversion
Justified: To be Raised IN Glory
• Justification # 2
Works
FOR Glorifying God
Justified: To Receive Rewards
• If a "Converted man," does NOT One Work to Glorify God...
He IS Justified to be Raised in Glory.
He is Not Justified to receive Rewards.
Don't you get it?
According to Scripture TWO men were Hanging next to Jesus.
One man Asked Jesus...to Save:
Jesus and Both men.
WHO DID Jesus Save?
And WHY?
Can you answer?
Luke 23:
[39] And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
[40] But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
[41] And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
[42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Glory to God,
Taken
Of course salvation is conditional...upon faith in Jesus Christ. Just read Romans 5:2, for example.
Mother Theresa is not the example that I would give of someone that is born again. Her entire faith base was faulty...and she was very likely doing all of her works in order to earn salvation; for that is the teaching of her denomination.
However, the only works that can carry "merit" are those works that are done out of a salvation already given.
And such works do not carry "merit for salvation" because if anyone does them, they are already saved by grace through faith, and that not of themselves: it is the fit of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. So they are not saved by the works. Rather, the works merely show forth that they are genuinely saved.
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"Mother Theresa's entire faith base was faulty" - "likely doing works to earn Salvation"
But MT has a great amount of Faith in Jesus Christ... same as a Sola Fide adherent such as yourself. She just does works on top of this faith.
You are a lost sheep - demonizing MT and anyone else because she has beliefs that differ from yours.
Once again I hearken you to the words of Jesus that you hate so much and have desperately tried to avoid.
Perhaps take log out of own eye .. before picking speck out of Mother Theresa's eye.
That is quite a statement
I endeavor always to take out of my eye any prospective "beams" before attempting to take the speck out of another's eye...
My judgment of Mother Theresa has nothing to do with her but with the faith-base of the church that she belongs to...
The teaching of the Catholic Church, that faith + works = belief, is faulty at its very core.
For if works is included in faith/belief, then in being saved through faith I would be saved by works.
However, the holy scriptures are clear...that I am saved by grace through faith, and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9).
If anyone has faith in Jesus Christ, but adds to that faith the concept that their works also save them, they are trusting in a faulty premise...and they are not placing their faith wholly in what Jesus did for them on the Cross.
Mother Theresa may have departed from the teaching of her denomination that she is saved by her works; and therefore she may indeed be saved...
However the criteria for salvation dictates that if she was in any way trusting in her works to save her, she may indeed hear the fateful words from our Lord, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (see Matthew 7:21-23).
Of course I am not her final judge; but she will be judged on her final day on the basis of Ephesians 2:8-9 and whether she believed according to it or not; among other criterion for judgment..
My judgment of Mother Theresa has nothing to do with her but with the faith-base of the church that she belongs to...
The teaching of the Catholic Church, that faith + works = belief, is faulty at its very core.
For if works is included in faith/belief, then in being saved through faith I would be saved by works.
However, the holy scriptures are clear...that I am saved by grace through faith, and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9).
If anyone has faith in Jesus Christ, but adds to that faith the concept that their works also save them, they are trusting in a faulty premise...and they are not placing their faith wholly in what Jesus did for them on the Cross.
Mother Theresa may have departed from the teaching of her denomination that she is saved by her works; and therefore she may indeed be saved...
However the criteria for salvation dictates that if she was in any way trusting in her works to save her, she may indeed hear the fateful words from our Lord, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (see Matthew 7:21-23).
Of course I am not her final judge; but she will be judged on her final day on the basis of Ephesians 2:8-9 and whether she believed according to it or not; among other criterion for judgment..
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Eh, no you can not.
You can merely "guess" what they Say is True.
A person can Say they love you out of their mouth, say they will repay a loan, say anything...but In their Heart, know that is not True.
No it is NOT for the Individual. It is for Other people TO SEE what they Do.
It is to give an OTHER PEOPLE, "an indication" of their True Belief in God.
Are you unaware of the CLERICS who have Pastored Churches for years claiming Belief, preaching out of Scripture.
(And even church members)..."coming out", fessing up, they NEVER "BELIEVED"?
You think the faithful Church members KNEW, their Pastor was a Fraud, by what came Out of His Mouth FOR YEARS? Eh, no.
Yes you are entitled to discern what you believe and Why.
But you are not entitled to Teach a Saved person is Not Saved, because "His works", or lack thereof, do not meet your standard.
"God justifies" men to Receive Salvation and Born Again spirit.
"God justifies" men to Receive Rewards for Works.
Glory to God,
Taken
Rudometkin
Well-Known Member
Yes, but only a few words. Not enough to write home with.
I would like to learn several languages, including Hebrew and Greek. Wouldn't that be nice?
If you are truly saved, you cannot cease to have faith. Everlasting life means everlasting faith.
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) and faith is instilled into us by the Holy Spirit as a fruit (Galatians 5:22-23) and as a gift (1 Corinthians 12:9).
So then, as long as I have the Holy Spirit (see Ephesians 4:30), I will have faith.
Hebrews 10:35-39
Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. For, “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay; but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
Matth 24:1…11 and many false prophets will arise and mislead many. 12 Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.…
Romans 11;20 do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in. 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.… 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.…
Now, why would I be afraid of losing faith if it were impossible? How could I throw away my confidence and faith to endure, if it's impossible to fall away from faith? How will the love of many grow cold if they are promised eternal life regardless? Yes, you will have faith as long as you have the Spirit, but you can reject and grieve the Spirit.
I hate to pull the middle class card but go into a prison with murderers, rapists and thieves, and righteous walking becomes obvious. In polite showy society things are often hidden, but no less destructive. A bitter angry heart with thorns and thistles destroys.
Christs love alive in someone cannot be hidden. If it is hidden it probably was never there. Only those who do not know love that nails us to a cross still saying I love you, you do not know what you are doing, speaks that such love cannot exist with no mark or shinning light. Jesus calls us to count love of Him above all else. This shows.
God bless you
Phl 1:6, Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Rom 11:20, Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21, For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22, Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
We are to be confident but not highminded, that He which hath begun a good work in us will be faithful to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.
It is the difference between faith and presumption.
Heb 11:29, By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
The Israelites had a relationship with God and also His promise to them that they were able to trust in...the Egyptians, on the other hand, tried to cross the Red Sea because they saw that the Israellites were able to do so...but they had no relationship with the Lord and no promise from Him that they would be able to also cross over safely. And in fact, because they were the enemies of Israel and the Lord, He used the situation to bring judgment upon them. But the point being that they were presumptuous rather than having real confidence in the very real promises of God...which they did not have.
In being presumptuous the Egyptians were being highminded; whereas Israel was confident in the promises of the Lord and were able to cross over safely because God was backing them up; and they knew with confidence that the Lord was going to back them up.
Rom 11:20, Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21, For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22, Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
We are to be confident but not highminded, that He which hath begun a good work in us will be faithful to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.
It is the difference between faith and presumption.
Heb 11:29, By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
The Israelites had a relationship with God and also His promise to them that they were able to trust in...the Egyptians, on the other hand, tried to cross the Red Sea because they saw that the Israellites were able to do so...but they had no relationship with the Lord and no promise from Him that they would be able to also cross over safely. And in fact, because they were the enemies of Israel and the Lord, He used the situation to bring judgment upon them. But the point being that they were presumptuous rather than having real confidence in the very real promises of God...which they did not have.
In being presumptuous the Egyptians were being highminded; whereas Israel was confident in the promises of the Lord and were able to cross over safely because God was backing them up; and they knew with confidence that the Lord was going to back them up.
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That's a promise that is conditional on us staying in Christ. Also in context it's Paul talking to others about his confidence in God. Not in thier faith but in God's work. I could say that to a crowd knowing some may leave the faith and it would still be legit.
There are four types of soil in the parable of the sower...
Only one of those types can bank on the promises found in scripture on eternal security (such as John 5:24 (kjv), John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv), Psalms 19:9 (kjv), Romans 11:29 w/ Romans 6:23, and more).
But those who are of the good soil can definitely bank on those promises and have no doubt that they already have eternal life (1 John 5:13).
The other soils are people that are saved and fall away from faith for various reasons. Romans 6 for example makes clear that we can always choose who to offer our selves to.
Cherry picking verses doesn't give us us any context.
Luke 8:13 speaks of the believer who has a nominal, shallow, or lukewarm faith...
As opposed to John 6:47 which speaks of someone who has a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10), and enduring to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22).
You can always look up the context if there is doubt...
But I believe that you will find that the context of any singular verse or passage never nullifies the plain meaning of that verse or passage....for the scripture does not contradict itself. Again, this is a first rule of hermeneutics.
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