Perpetual virginity of Mary!

[farouk]

There are many things that I have said here. But I have never said that children can't come to Jesus. Not now, not ever.

There are few things that would make me report anyone, but misrepresenting what I have said is one of them.

The onus is now on you. Please show the quote where I said "forbid the children to go to him!.

@Spurgeon's Girl The Lord Jesus indeed said the opposite....He receives children gladly...

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

Ummm......no propaganda here. I quoted Jesus sooooo if you think HE is propaganda then that is on you. The money changers have nothing to do with hierarchy sooooo there's that. I see you can't provide any passages from scripture of Jesus saying ignore hierarchy. All you have are your personal opinion soooo there's that...


Who is in your hierarchy?

Your perception is of course your own. But Jesus said this to the hierarchy of his faith.

Matthew 23:23-37
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

 

[farouk]

Your perception is of course your own. But Jesus said this to the hierarchy of his faith.

Matthew 23:23-37
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

@Spurgeon's Girl Solemn words; highly applicable...

 

[Renniks]

Where do you think the Jews went?
Heaven....Sheol.....Hell

So when was heaven opened for business?

 

[Grailhunter]

So when was heaven opened for business?

As you probably know Enoch and Elijah were taken....where they went is not explained but it is not out of the question that they went to Heaven.
As the OT scriptures say, the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews when they died, they were gathered with their fathers...in Sheol.
God stated many "promises" in the OT but did not promise Heaven to anyone, He did not suggest it as a destination for Man.
No Salvation in the OT that lead to Heaven. As far as the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews were concerned Heaven was the abode of God.
As far as Hell, God did not threaten them with Hell. The Hebrews/Israelites/Jews did not not know of a Hell in the OT.
The Jews knew of Satan but in their religion he was not a devil. The Hebrews/Israelites/Jews did have a devil in their religion.

Now what happens in the "300 years" between the testaments is a long story and is debatable. But essentially the Jews were under the "friendly" rule of the Persians until they were conquered by Alexander the Great. Was it their exposure to Zoroastrianism that suggested that Hell and the devil existed, another debatable topic.

What is clear is that, by the time of Christ, some of the Jews believed in Heaven and Hell as a possible destination and some believed in angels and the resurrection. During Christ's ministry He talks about Heaven as a possible destination for those that believe in Him. And He talks about Hell as possible destination for sinners. Satan emerges as the devil at this point, but the conversions that Christ has with the Jews about Satan is very limited.

So the status of Sheol is that it is still a possible destination and Heaven becomes a possible destination, and Hell becomes a possible destination.

Now there is a confusion factor here because the word Hades appears in the Bible and it gets used in various contexts. Why? The NT was written in a Pagan language....Greek. In Greco-Roman mythology Hades was a god and his domain was something like Hell. Was this term borrowed from the Greeks? Obviously. It actually appears in the NT, but translators inserted it into the OT because some thought that Hades was Sheol or the grave. It still causes some confusion.

So in the end, to answer your question; Heaven was opened up to Mankind in the NT.

 

[theefaith]

Where do you think the Jews went?
Heaven....Sheol.....Hell

sheol was not hell but Abraham’s bosom cod with the fall or original sin of Adam heaven was closed represented by the veil in the temple

 

[theefaith]

I particularly love Matthew 23. It's a reaffirmation of everything I have said. The ruling Pharisees were called hypocrites. The very same activity as your supposed church.

There is indeed unity between Jesus and His disciples. But I have no evidence that anyone that ruled the early church were disciples of Jesus. I have already shown that I don't believe that Peter was the first Pope, but it seems that I can't find a single disciple among the ECF's. I have taken a lengthy course in Church history. An argument can and should be made for those who followed Christ and the disciples and their adherents. But.....

The reality is that men can't help but destroy everything in their path. Jesus never uttered a word about purgatory, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc. And... He never said anything about there being no salvation outside the Catholic Church. No these are just puffed up musings that do not come from scripture.



These are all good verses, but none of them apply solely to the Roman Catholic Church. My Pastor is a disciple of Christ and there are many others which I believe was the intent of Jesus when he instructed the disciples to be about the Great Commission.

So here is my question. Why should I follow a man who espouses socialism? Why should I follow a man who has covered up the grievous sins of child sexual assault for generations? Why should I follow an organization that funds abortion. Why should I follow a man who seemingly worships wooden idols? Why should I follow a man who approves of homosexuality when the Bible calls it depraved sin?

I understand that you are sincere in your beliefs. But I ask you to search the scriptures such as the Bereans did. A child of the Risen King deserves the truth.

God Speed.

well Matt 23 the successors of Moses had the authority of the keys of the kingdom and the power to bind and loose and Jesus commanded obedience to them, then Jesus gave the authority and power to Peter, the apostles, and their successors and still requires obedience to them!

 

[theefaith]

do you believe dogma?

what is dogma?

 

[Grailhunter]

sheol was not hell but Abraham’s bosom cod with the fall or original sin of Adam heaven was closed represented by the veil in the temple

Not being argumentative but I am not sure what your sentence means....I am going to answer but if I read you wrong don't be cursing me. lol
I am assuming that you are referencing the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
As far as the fall of man, heaven was not a possible destination for Adam and Eve.
Now the veil in the temple, now that is something. Adam and Eve may have walked with God in the Paradise of Delights...(Garden of Eden) And He may have helped them make clothes genesis 3:21, after they had sinned, but after they left there was a physical separation because of the sin nature of Man....God's nature being such that if they got to close He would kill them....and of course that meant a downgrading of their relationship. The veil represented a division between God and Man, but it was not made of steel. The veil was a warning....don't come any closer.
Just when God told Moses not to let the people get too close to the mountain, Mt. Sinai.

 

[Pearl]

I hope it's blessing somebody to keep harping on about this subject.

 

[theefaith]

With the blood sacrifice of Jesus on the cross the veil was torn by God from top to bottom and the tombs were opened and the dead seen, Heaven was then open, there is no more Sheol only heaven and hell and the purification

 

[Grailhunter]

there is no more Sheol only heaven and hell and the purification

Interestingly enough you will not find the closer of Sheol in the Bible. For a very good reason, it was not closed and there are still Jews going to Sheol.

 

[theefaith]

It was temporary until the redemption of Christ,
Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

 

[theefaith]

Sorry you were did-respected, Christians should practice charity, have a blessed day

 

[Grailhunter]

It was temporary until the redemption of Christ,
Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

That has nothing to do with Sheol.
Just curious, where do you think your soul goes when you die?

 

[Renniks]

So in the end, to answer your question; Heaven was opened up to Mankind in the NT

Lots of speculation... Jesus taught what was always true. It wasn't that heaven didn't exist, but that the people had an incomplete revelation of the afterlife at the time.

 

[theefaith]

That has nothing to do with Sheol.
Just curious, where do you think your soul goes when you die?

to be judged by Jesus if found to be in a state of His sanctifying grace then to be purgatory for purification then heaven.
If not in Christ then hell.

 

[Grailhunter]

to be judged by Jesus if found to be in a state of His sanctifying grace then to be purgatory for purification then heaven.
If not in Christ then hell.

Find the word Purgatory in the Bible.
Not a place you would want to go to even if it existed.
And Judgment day as at the end....not in the beginning....not in the middle.

 

[theefaith]

Find the word Purgatory in the Bible.
Not a place you would want to go to even if it existed.
And Judgment day as at the end....not in the beginning....not in the middle.

why?
Why does it have to be in the Bible?
The Bible says we believe the apostles. Acts 2:42

the word Trinity is not there either but both doctrines are, 1 cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

there are two judgements one particular or personal then the general on judgement day

 

[Grailhunter]

Lots of speculation... Jesus taught what was always true. It wasn't that heaven didn't exist, but that the people had an incomplete revelation of the afterlife at the time.

Never said that Heaven did not exist in the OT, the point was that it became a possible destination with complete Salvation in and only in the NT.
while we are looking at the OT....
1. Find where God offered Heaven to those good Jews and where He threatened Hell for the bad Jews.
2. Find where God was warning people about Satan the devil or talked about devils or demons at all.
3. Yeshua and Yahweh talked to each other in the NT. Asked each other questions. Find that in the OT.
4. Find the name Yeshua as a God or a God called Son of God in the OT.
5. Find where a God named Yeshua....named Yeshua specifically did anything in the OT.
6. Find where a God named Yeshua....talked to anyone in the OT.
7. Find where the OT talks about a God named Yeshua.