Bible alone?

[CadyandZoe]

NONSENSE.

OT Scripture was appealed to when making the decision at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 because Scripture IS Authoritative.
Nobody is arguing against this.

Sola Scriptura, on the other hand posits that Scripture is our SOLE Authority - which Scripture itself rejects (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23). Peter's entire opening statement was based on the GOSPEL - which had NOT yet been written.
James, then quoted the OT in his speech.

In the end - it was the Apostles, guided by the Holy Spirit who made the decision.
Scripture indeed played a part - but NOT Scripture "alone" . . .

Let's stop dancing around the issue and get right to the point. We have already dealt with those passages, which you take out of context in order to justify your loyalty to your religion.

Jesus is not impressed with your religious devotion. He did not come to the earth to create Pharisees. He came to lead his followers into life and love and truth. His followers are loyal to him; they are his disciples who love him and worship him. Consider the following passage. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura answers to the question, "who is your teacher? Who do you follow?"

Matthew 28:16-20
But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

I would like to focus your attention on two ideas above: 1) authority has been granted to Jesus, and 2) the 11 disciples were to baptize in his name. Many who read this passage place the emphasis on the wrong idea. Understanding this as "the great commission" the emphasis is placed on evangelism and the call to all Christians to proselytize their neighbor. But although this is a very important idea, we note that Jesus is placing the emphasis on his role as teacher.

The central and most significant idea in this passage is this. Jesus has commanded the 11 to go make disciples of all the nations, but rather than baptizing them in their own name, they are to baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. In other words, these men are to make disciples for Jesus, teaching them everything that Jesus commanded. If Peter himself were to baptize me, I am not Peter's disciple, I am Jesus' disciple. If Paul were to baptize me, I would not be Paul's disciple, I would be Jesus' disciple. Who is my teacher? Jesus. Who do I follow? Jesus. Where do I find the teachings of Jesus? The Bible. Who is the only person authorized to tell me what to believe? Jesus.

I am Jesus' disciple.

 

[Taken]

Bible alone?
OP^

Bible Alone-
For VERIFICATION of TRUTH?

Absolutely!

1 Tim 3:
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Eph 5:
[17] Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Jane_Doe22]

As I said, the statement is authoritative. God the father declares to the Son, who declares to the Apostles who declares to us. Simple. God is the only one who has authority to tell me what to believe and he has granted that authority to his son. By a trick of your magic wand, hocus pocus, you claim that a catholic pope has also been granted authority ex cathedra.

So then, When we say, "scripture alone" we deny other writings and documents. Not only do we reject the writings of Ellen G. White and the Book of Mormon, we reject the Catholic Magisterium. We classify any group who affirms extrabiblical writings as a cult, a group that has deviated from Christ and the truth. In Essence, The Roman Catholic Church is a cult, having deviated from Christ and the truth. Protestants have heard the call, "come out of her my people."

In my experience, having visited across many faiths, the "anti-cult" movement is extremely destructive: it focuses on painting people as stereotyped demons and fear-mongreling. On the other hand, Christ sees each person as an individual, and loves them even in their filthy state (each person is filthy). We should focus the same: see the individual person, love that person, celebrate any shard of discipleship that person might have, and helping it grow stronger and stronger.

 

[BreadOfLife]

As I said, the statement is authoritative. God the father declares to the Son, who declares to the Apostles who declares to us. Simple. God is the only one who has authority to tell me what to believe and he has granted that authority to his son. By a trick of your magic wand, hocus pocus, you claim that a catholic pope has also been granted authority ex cathedra.

So then, When we say, "scripture alone" we deny other writings and documents. Not only do we reject the writings of Ellen G. White and the Book of Mormon, we reject the Catholic Magisterium. We classify any group who affirms extrabiblical writings as a cult, a group that has deviated from Christ and the truth. In Essence, The Roman Catholic Church is a cult, having deviated from Christ and the truth. Protestants have heard the call, "come out of her my people."

Yes - the statement was Authoritative and it was made by the APOSTLES.
THEY had the Supreme earthly Authority transferred onto them by Christ Himself:
John 16:15
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

Matt. 18:18
Amen, I say to you, whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

As I've told you repeatedly - Go IS the one with Authority. However, He has given HIS Authority to His Church. And the Church DOES have hierarchy and magesterium, as prescribed by Scripture:
1 Cor. 12:28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, FIRST, apostles; SECOND, prophets; THIRD, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.

And that magesterium is charged with TEACHING the people - and they are to be respected as such:
1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.


Finally - YOUR version of Sola Scriptura differs from other Protestant sects.
Catholics - and MOST Protestants reject extrabiblical writings as inspired Scripture, but we don't reject them as efficacious teaching. That would be stupid. That would mean that everything your pastor or ANY other Protestant has written is NOT to be read.

Sola Scriptura is a self-defeating, man-made invention that is destroyed by Scripture itself . . .

 

[theefaith]

Amen and the apostles are guided by angels and the Holy Spirit! Acts 8
Jn 16:13

 

[BreadOfLife]

Let's stop dancing around the issue and get right to the point. We have already dealt with those passages, which you take out of context in order to justify your loyalty to your religion.

Jesus is not impressed with your religious devotion. He did not come to the earth to create Pharisees. He came to lead his followers into life and love and truth. His followers are loyal to him; they are his disciples who love him and worship him. Consider the following passage. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura answers to the question, "who is your teacher? Who do you follow?"

Matthew 28:16-20
But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

I would like to focus your attention on two ideas above: 1) authority has been granted to Jesus, and 2) the 11 disciples were to baptize in his name. Many who read this passage place the emphasis on the wrong idea. Understanding this as "the great commission" the emphasis is placed on evangelism and the call to all Christians to proselytize their neighbor. But although this is a very important idea, we note that Jesus is placing the emphasis on his role as teacher.

The central and most significant idea in this passage is this. Jesus has commanded the 11 to go make disciples of all the nations, but rather than baptizing them in their own name, they are to baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. In other words, these men are to make disciples for Jesus, teaching them everything that Jesus commanded. If Peter himself were to baptize me, I am not Peter's disciple, I am Jesus' disciple. If Paul were to baptize me, I would not be Paul's disciple, I would be Jesus' disciple. Who is my teacher? Jesus. Who do I follow? Jesus. Where do I find the teachings of Jesus? The Bible. Who is the only person authorized to tell me what to believe? Jesus.

I am Jesus' disciple.

I am ALSO a disciple of Jesus. I was Baptized in His Church, into His death and resurrection.
The difference between YOU and me, however, is that I don't reject His Body as YOU do.

MY teacher is the Holy Spirit, working THROUGH His Church.
YOUR teacher is some guy's interpretation of Scripture. Next year - or next month, it might be some other guy's interpretation, who splintered off from HIS splinter group.

And therein lies the tragedy of Protestantism:
Tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects that ALL teach different doctrines - yet ALL claim that the Holy Spirit led them to this confusion . . .

 

[CadyandZoe]

In my experience, having visited across many faiths, the "anti-cult" movement is extremely destructive: it focuses on painting people as stereotyped demons and fear-mongreling. On the other hand, Christ sees each person as an individual, and loves them even in their filthy state (each person is filthy). We should focus the same: see the individual person, love that person, celebrate any shard of discipleship that person might have, and helping it grow stronger and stronger.

In general, I agree with you. I mention cults only to emphasize why sola scriptura is important. I'm not in favor of heretic hunting.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I am ALSO a disciple of Jesus. I was Baptized in His Church, into His death and resurrection.
The difference between YOU and me, however, is that I don't reject His Body as YOU do.

MY teacher is the Holy Spirit, working THROUGH His Church.
YOUR teacher is some guy's interpretation of Scripture. Next year - or next month, it might be some other guy's interpretation, who splintered off from HIS splinter group.

And therein lies the tragedy of Protestantism:
Tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects that ALL teach different doctrines - yet ALL claim that the Holy Spirit led them to this confusion . . .

I believe in inspired scripture, not inspired interpretations.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

In general, I agree with you. I mention cults only to emphasize why sola scriptura is important. I'm not in favor of heretic hunting.

A person can firmly believe in Sola Scriptura without any "anti-cult" junk.
And in my experience visiting all sorts of faiths, including mainstream and each one of the "cults", on each set of pews there are both 1) strong Christians whom love Christ and strive to follow Him, and 2) ....people who've got a LOT of work to do in that regard.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Finally - YOUR version of Sola Scriptura differs from other Protestant sects.

Are you surprised?

Catholics

- and MOST Protestants reject extrabiblical writings as inspired Scripture, but we don't reject them as efficacious teaching. That would be stupid. That would mean that everything your pastor or ANY other Protestant has written is NOT to be read.

Masterful equivocation. If you don't think that the Magisterium is infallible, then you aren't Catholic. Followers of Jesus Christ do not admit or affirm that the Magisterium is infallible.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I believe in inspired scripture, not inspired interpretations.

You believe in post 16th century men's interpretations of Scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Are you surprised?

I'm not surprised at ALL.
You're just being a good Protestant - which is perpetual-splintering . . .

Masterful equivocation. If you don't think that the Magisterium is infallible, then you aren't Catholic. Followers of Jesus Christ do not admit or affirm that the Magisterium is infallible.

I simply believe in the guarantee of Christ Himself that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).
YOU don't.

This guarantee wasn't made to each individual believer. If it was - then you wouldn't have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines - yet ALL believe they were "led" by the Holy Spirit to this confusion.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You believe in post 16th century men's interpretations of Scripture.

No, I believe in my own interpretations of scripture. I study and I work hard at it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, I believe in my own interpretations of scripture. I study and I work hard at it.

What about the guy next door?
Is his interpretation wrong?

What about the pastor down the street? What about the hundreds of thousands of pastors around the world?
Are they ALL wrong and YOU right? They ALSO studied hard and came to different conclusions that YOU did.

Some of them believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some of them believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some of them believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some of them believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some of them believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some of them believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some of them believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some of them believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some of them believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some of them believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

WHO is right - and HOW do you know??

PS - Why are you "working hard"??
I thought Protestants don't believe in the efficacy of "works" . . .

 

[Marymog]

No, I believe in my own interpretations of scripture. I study and I work hard at it.

Soooo Martin Luther, the great Reformer, was wrong in his interpretation but YOU are right?


2 Peter 3:16

 

[CadyandZoe]

Soooo Martin Luther, the great Reformer, was wrong in his interpretation but YOU are right?


2 Peter 3:16

Whether Martin Luther was right or wrong, doesn't matter. What matters is that I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and he is holding me personally responsible to study and obey his teaching. You would do well to do the same. Romans 14:4

 

[CadyandZoe]

WHO is right - and HOW do you know??

I am not concerned with who is right and who is wrong. My primary concern is to serve my Lord. And that I will do. My secondary concern is to help others understand the Bible, answering to the question, "Isn't this what the Bible says?" You are free to agree or disagree with my interpretation.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am not concerned with who is right and who is wrong. My primary concern is to serve my Lord. And that I will do. My secondary concern is to help others understand the Bible, answering to the question, "Isn't this what the Bible says?" You are free to agree or disagree with my interpretation.

That's NOT the point.

Jesus fervently prayed for the UNITY of His Church at the Last Supper. He prayed that they remain ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). He did NOT pray that they splinter off into tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects.
The Early Church taught and believed in the SAME things (2 Thess. 2:15). When there was an issue with somebody teaching something different - it was dealt with, as at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15).

The plain fact is that YOUR interpretations differ from those of the guy across the street, the pastor down the road - and millions of others.
As I showed you in my last post - sometimes these different interpretations are on ESSENTIAL teachings, so you'd BETTER be concerned with who is right and who is wrong . . .

 

[CadyandZoe]

so you'd BETTER be concerned with who is right and who is wrong . . .

Again, I am not following anyone except Jesus Christ. I don't concern myself with "tens of thousands of disjointed" sects because I am not following any of them. Understand? You and I are responsible to our Lord. Therefore, personal Bible study is an obligation, and if we obey our Lord, we will not be tossed around by every wind of doctrine. Don't be seduced by the safety and security of a dogma. Your Lord is not the Church. Your Lord is Jesus Christ. Follow him.

 

[farouk]

I believe in inspired scripture, not inspired interpretations.

@CadyandZoe Good way of putting it...