Bible alone?

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Eternally Grateful

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it may have changed...I first got saved in the Baptist Church and they pressured me to get water baptized for over a year....I was only 7 when I got saved...but at 8 I finally got water baptized.:)
Ok I see What you mean now,

baptism is one of the first commands, but to push is wrong, and yes they can push.

but as far as major doctrines, or what they focus on, I hardly ever heard anything about baptism
 

Heart2Soul

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Good post, but as a lifelong baptist Until I left that church, water baptism was never one of their main focuses,

I think one of the major issues we have is we do not really know everything the other does. So we stereotype them.
In doing so, we are hard of hearing because we think we already know

not saying all of us, but in my decade of being involved in one form or another in christian chat, it has been what I have experienced,
There is so much time and effort debating one another over a topic (mostly from a difference in doctrinal beliefs) and very little focusing on Jesus and what is soon to happen....and after a short time the arguments are the same over and over and over again...lol....that's insanity! :confused:
Reminds me of the country and western song MerryGoRound by Kacey Musgraves.....:)
 

Eternally Grateful

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There is so much time and effort debating one another over a topic (mostly from a difference in doctrinal beliefs) and very little focusing on Jesus and what is soon to happen....and after a short time the arguments are the same over and over and over again...lol....that's insanity! :confused:
Reminds me of the country and western song MerryGoRound by Kacey Musgraves.....:)
Yeah I got caught up in all that, until I sat back and looked at myself and saw I was acting like the ones I were complaining about, I have to change the way I respond, so I have not been responding much. I also decided not to try to discuss with someone when they are closed, say a few words and walk away
 

Heart2Soul

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Yeah I got caught up in all that, until I sat back and looked at myself and saw I was acting like the ones I were complaining about, I have to change the way I respond, so I have not been responding much. I also decided not to try to discuss with someone when they are closed, say a few words and walk away
Share your faith and convictions but do it humbly and peacefully....I like the way a member here responds to others.....they always thank them for their reply and then debates their side of the topic...never seen them in a heated argument.
 

Heart2Soul

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Yeah I got caught up in all that, until I sat back and looked at myself and saw I was acting like the ones I were complaining about, I have to change the way I respond, so I have not been responding much. I also decided not to try to discuss with someone when they are closed, say a few words and walk away
BTW....Good Job! You're refusing to be a vessel for the enemy to sow spiritual strife....You can have an extra cookie for dessert tonight.:)
 

theefaith

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That is the Church that God is going to Restore! As it was on the day of Pentecost

the church is a perfect society and was founded by God like divine revelation it cannot be restored, reformed or changed, the heavenly Jerusalem, the kingdom of God, the bride of Christ is without spot!
 

Marymog

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I actually agree with your words although it is likely that our underlying understanding differs. I look to these verses in support of our need for helpers provided to us by God:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Eph 4:11-16

Without the five ministries mentioned, how can we move beyond childhood into mature perfected fitted part of the Body of Christ? A man can serve God all alone for times or for a time, but can he all alone finish his course in the Lord as a part of the Church connected to all the other parts and along with all of the other parts subject to the Head, which is Jesus?

Jonah ran away as did Elijah, but God let them both know where they were in error. If we are sincerely and submitted to Him, will He not bring us to where He knows that we should be at the end of our course? Consider where Apostle Paul was when he approached the end of his course:

"For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:" II Tim 4:6-7
Yes sir. I totally agree with you. Scripture makes it clear we 'need helpers provided to us by God'.

You asked me the question: how can we move beyond childhood into mature perfected fitted part of the Body of Christ?

My answer, or the answer from scripture to your question is that we move beyond childhood by listening to those "helpers" (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers who perform the work of the ministry) who rule over us. We are to be submissive to them since they watch out for our souls and THEY must give account for their leadership (help) for what they do is profitable to us (Hebrews 13:17).


They are considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. They are the shepherds of the flock of God, exercising their oversight when they reprove, rebuke and exhort members of the church. Like Paul said to Timothy, All scripture is given to them by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. And if we refuse to listen to them THEY (Elders of The Church) have the authority to treat us as pagan/tax collectors. (1 Timothy 5:17, 1 Peter 5:1–2, 2 Timothy 4:2, 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 18:17).

I appreciate the quote from Paul that you referenced (II Tim 4:6-7). In that passage Paul was telling Timothy that the end (he was going to be put to death) is near for him but it was no big deal since HE has fought a good fight, finished his course and kept the faith. In a few passages (vs 2-4) before that, in his opening of the letter, Paul urges Timothy to persistently proclaim the message whether the time is favorable or unfavorable. Timothy, who is a church leader, is to convince, rebuke and encourage with the utmost patience in teaching. Paul made it clear that the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine and with itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires. Paul knew that the flock will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths.

With that said the answer to your other question (A man can serve God all alone for times or for a time, but can he all alone finish his course in the Lord as a part of the Church connected to all the other parts and along with all of the other parts subject to the Head, which is Jesus?) is NO, a man (Christian) being all alone can not finish his course in the Lord as part of The Church. They have to be 'connected" to the Elders of The Church who teach us sound doctrine. For if our twitching ears go out on our own, looking for teachers who suit OUR desires, we have wandered away into myths and we have turned from the Truth that is being taught by The Church.

Mary
 
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amadeus

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the church is a perfect society and was founded by God like divine revelation it cannot be restored, reformed or changed, the heavenly Jerusalem, the kingdom of God, the bride of Christ is without spot!
"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Eph 4:11-16

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

"She [Wisdom] is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her." Prov 3:18

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom:..." Prov 9:10

 

Marymog

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He will bring us together on His Truth
But He hasn't revealed it all to us yet....the Hidden Wisdom and the Mysteries of God that are kept hidden until the appointed time....therefore what we know at this point is what He wants us to know.
But an example of what I am saying is this...
Baptist: Their main focus is on salvation and water baptism.....they pretty much avoid the teaching on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit
Catholics: They focus on Communion, Confession, Charity and achieving sainthood...
Assemblies of God: main focus is Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Gifts

So there are 3 examples....
Now all 3 teach from the same Bible.....but not all 3 teach the same message in the Bible.

Does that make more sense?
Thank you.

I long for the day we will be brought together in His Truth. :rolleyes:

You make an interesting point that "He hasn't revealed it (truth) all to us yet". Protestants on this forum point out that the Catholic Churches doctrine has evolved over time with some dogma not becoming official dogma for hundreds of years until AFTER Scripture was written. They use that point as evidence that the Catholic Church can't be THE CHURCH since it's dogma/doctrine evolves over time. But, according to your statement, it is possible that God has over time slowly revealed The Truth to The Catholic Church!!

Not only do all 3 not teach the same message but all 3 have opposing teaching/doctrine on what one must do to obtain salvation. So my point is it comes down to more than what message they emphasize (which is what I believe you are saying). It really comes down to what they say you must do to be saved. All three teach different 'salvation messages'.

That brings me back to my original question (with a little modification) based on your new point. Since all 3 teach different ways to salvation how do WE know which church (denomination) has the truth in it's fullness on what one MUST do to obtain salvation?

After all....our salvation is at risk here so we must get it right and, based on your scenario, we have a 1 in 3 chance to get it right.

I appreciate your time....Mary
 
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Marymog

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Good post, but as a lifelong baptist Until I left that church, water baptism was never one of their main focuses,

I think one of the major issues we have is we do not really know everything the other does. So we stereotype them.
In doing so, we are hard of hearing because we think we already know

not saying all of us, but in my decade of being involved in one form or another in christian chat, it has been what I have experienced,
Good morning EG,

We are to listen to The Church because it KNOWS what "we think we already know" according to Matthew 18:17!
 
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CadyandZoe

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WRONG on BOTH counts.

First of all, at the Council of Jerusalem - the Apostles made a decision. They made a decision BASED on Scripture and the teachings of Christ - but the decision was THEIRS.
Of course. They made a decision based on scripture and the teachings of Christ. So do we all.

As for Peter and Paul - Peter was out of line and needed to be rebuked.
Paul's rebuke was based on sound reason and scripture, not on his authority as an apostle.

 

amadeus

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Yes sir. I totally agree with you. Scripture makes it clear we 'need helpers provided to us by God'.
And a good clear response by you. Thank you!
You asked me the question: how can we move beyond childhood into mature perfected fitted part of the Body of Christ?

My answer, or the answer from scripture to your question is that we move beyond childhood by listening to those "helpers" (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers who perform the work of the ministry) who rule over us. We are to be submissive to them since they watch out for our souls and THEY must give account for their leadership (help) for what they do is profitable to us (Hebrews 13:17).


They are considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.
The double honor is due to those who "rule well". I remember some places in my own experience where they often had potluck dinners at the end of a fellowship service and automatically the pastor or minister in charge of the local assembly would ask that all ministers and their spouses go to the head of the chow line. This was explained as a part of this double honor. When someone had Not been ruling well, it certainly would have been a poor example to set. To allow visitors to go first might be a good thing... if that were the reason, but on the honor, they should have been little more cautious. I did not say anything as it was not my place nor was it the right time, but some certainly received that double honor from what I knew about them... in error.
They are the shepherds of the flock of God, exercising their oversight when they reprove, rebuke and exhort members of the church. Like Paul said to Timothy, All scripture is given to them by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. And if we refuse to listen to them THEY (Elders of The Church) have the authority to treat us as pagan/tax collectors. (1 Timothy 5:17, 1 Peter 5:1–2, 2 Timothy 4:2, 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 18:17).
I appreciate the quote from Paul that you referenced (II Tim 4:6-7). In that passage Paul was telling Timothy that the end (he was going to be put to death) is near for him but it was no big deal since HE has fought a good fight, finished his course and kept the faith. In a few passages (vs 2-4) before that, in his opening of the letter, Paul urges Timothy to persistently proclaim the message whether the time is favorable or unfavorable. Timothy, who is a church leader, is to convince, rebuke and encourage with the utmost patience in teaching. Paul made it clear that the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine and with itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires. Paul knew that the flock will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths.

With that said the answer to your other question (A man can serve God all alone for times or for a time, but can he all alone finish his course in the Lord as a part of the Church connected to all the other parts and along with all of the other parts subject to the Head, which is Jesus?) is NO, a man (Christian) being all alone can not finish his course in the Lord as part of The Church. They have to be 'connected" to the Elders of The Church who teach us sound doctrine. For if our twitching ears go out on our own, looking for teachers who suit OUR desires, we have wandered away into myths and we have turned from the Truth that is being taught by The Church.

Mary
Sounds like we may be on the same pathway. Am I wrong?
 
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Marymog

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Sounds like we may be on the same pathway. Am I wrong?
Hi,

We are on the same pathway if you, like me, accept the teachings from the elders of your church as sound doctrine and if you believe your elders have the authority to decide who is to be treated as a pagan/tax collector (excommunicated from The Church) when a member of that church twitching ears do not adhere to sound doctrine.

Mary
 
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Ronald Nolette

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I don’t know any scripture that says the people are to teach the people, the church is the kingdom of God on earth and has structure hierarchy authority and power!

matt 28:19 has the apostles teaching and baptizing the people, I suppose your going to baptize yourself too?

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

(None of the so called reformers were apostles)


We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

The obedience of faith!

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Taught the one true faith revealed by Christ to His apostles! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Don't get me wrong- I am not against the office of pastor/teacher! I am very very much for it! It is a gift ministry for the church so that the church may mature.

I agree we must be taught by the apostles doctrine. And as far as their successors, as long as their teaching conforms to Scripture, I will obey! but if it veers from the plain sense of Scripture- every believer must resist it- no matter he be pastor, priest, bishop or pope!

Funny you quote Luke! He was not an apostle, or pastor or successor!

Sad you omitted the next part of Matt. 28!
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus told the apostles to teach and command to observe everything Jesus taught the apostles!

And yes we can baptize another believer. Phillip was just a deacon which is not a position of authority in the church.

YOu can do the same things Phillip and the apostles did!

The church has organization, but is not an organization, but an organism. The local churches Paul planted probably had very very little communication with each other and had no presiding bishop over a region. That came much later.

Yes there is a hierarchy!

Jesus the chief cornerstone, the apostles, then pastor teachers for the maturing of the saints. Any other hierarchy like (using the catholic church as an example) Where you have the local priest, then a monsignor, then a bishop, then a cardinal then the college of cardinals then the pope!

This has never worked well in church history when we had layers of
bureaucracy.
 

theefaith

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Don't get me wrong- I am not against the office of pastor/teacher! I am very very much for it! It is a gift ministry for the church so that the church may mature.

I agree we must be taught by the apostles doctrine. And as far as their successors, as long as their teaching conforms to Scripture, I will obey! but if it veers from the plain sense of Scripture- every believer must resist it- no matter he be pastor, priest, bishop or pope!

Funny you quote Luke! He was not an apostle, or pastor or successor!

Sad you omitted the next part of Matt. 28!
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus told the apostles to teach and command to observe everything Jesus taught the apostles!

And yes we can baptize another believer. Phillip was just a deacon which is not a position of authority in the church.

YOu can do the same things Phillip and the apostles did!

The church has organization, but is not an organization, but an organism. The local churches Paul planted probably had very very little communication with each other and had no presiding bishop over a region. That came much later.

Yes there is a hierarchy!

Jesus the chief cornerstone, the apostles, then pastor teachers for the maturing of the saints. Any other hierarchy like (using the catholic church as an example) Where you have the local priest, then a monsignor, then a bishop, then a cardinal then the college of cardinals then the pope!

This has never worked well in church history when we had layers of
bureaucracy.

I quote the Bible alone including Luke cos that’s what you accept.
I believe in Divine revelation, thru scripture and tradition the constant faith of the apostles Jude 1:3 taught for 2000 yrs
Where does the Bible say the Bible is the ultimate or only authority?

The word of God is not limited to the Bible alone!

How do you know from the Bible alone exactly what is and what is not the Bible?

The church and the apostles with power and authority were founded before the New Testament, and wrote the New Testament and cannonized the Bible!

The rule of faith is not the Bible or the Bible alone, but God, and His divine revelation!

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (It does not say every verse of the Bible alone)

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handy work.

Gen God called Abraham

Matt 16:16-17 Peter received divine revelation from the Father.

Lk 3:2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

(This is divine revelation and opposes the doctrine of the Bible alone, the heavens are not the Bible or Bible alone, the word of God did not come to Abraham, Peter, John etc. by the Bible or Bible alone)

The church is the pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15



Philip was an apostle Matt 10:2
 

Ronald Nolette

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I quote the Bible alone including Luke cos that’s what you accept.
I believe in Divine revelation, thru scripture and tradition the constant faith of the apostles Jude 1:3 taught for 2000 yrs
Where does the Bible say the Bible is the ultimate or only authority?

The word of God is not limited to the Bible alone!

How do you know from the Bible alone exactly what is and what is not the Bible?

The church and the apostles with power and authority were founded before the New Testament, and wrote the New Testament and cannonized the Bible!

The rule of faith is not the Bible or the Bible alone, but God, and His divine revelation!

I believe in divine REvelation as well, but none of it holds the saem authority as Scripture!

I take it you are catholic, so let me ask you , do you believe these are divine revelations?

Mary as co-redeemer, Queen of Heaven, sinless, ever virgin, co mediator with Jesus?
Purgatory,Limbo, indulgences, sacramentals? the Rosary?

Loss of salvation? Wearing a scapula will keep you from hell?

All these were proclamations from teh "successors to teh apostles. And all these run contrary to Scripture?

2 Timothy 3:15-17
King James Version

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


No show me where traditions or new rules from men are just as inspired by God!
 

Heart2Soul

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Thank you.

I long for the day we will be brought together in His Truth. :rolleyes:

You make an interesting point that "He hasn't revealed it (truth) all to us yet". Protestants on this forum point out that the Catholic Churches doctrine has evolved over time with some dogma not becoming official dogma for hundreds of years until AFTER Scripture was written. They use that point as evidence that the Catholic Church can't be THE CHURCH since it's dogma/doctrine evolves over time. But, according to your statement, it is possible that God has over time slowly revealed The Truth to The Catholic Church!!

Not only do all 3 not teach the same message but all 3 have opposing teaching/doctrine on what one must do to obtain salvation. So my point is it comes down to more than what message they emphasize (which is what I believe you are saying). It really comes down to what they say you must do to be saved. All three teach different 'salvation messages'.

That brings me back to my original question (with a little modification) based on your new point. Since all 3 teach different ways to salvation how do WE know which church (denomination) has the truth in it's fullness on what one MUST do to obtain salvation?

After all....our salvation is at risk here so we must get it right and, based on your scenario, we have a 1 in 3 chance to get it right.

I appreciate your time....Mary
I think He is a Merciful Father who sees the bondage of lies (that Satan planted in the church)..and it brings you back to when the timing is right He and He alone will reveal His Truth...that's all I can say at this point.
We will probably all be shocked when His Truth is shown.
God Bless!
 
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farouk

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"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Eph 4:11-16

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

"She [Wisdom] is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her." Prov 3:18
@amadeus Searching verses there. The Matthew 8.20 one is very sobering and revealing as to how the Creator is sadly treated by His own creation; a reminder of the pilgrim character of the true church.
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom:..." Prov 9:10
 
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