Bible alone?

[BreadOfLife]

Again, I am not following anyone except Jesus Christ. I don't concern myself with "tens of thousands of disjointed" sects because I am not following any of them. Understand? You and I are responsible to our Lord. Therefore, personal Bible study is an obligation, and if we obey our Lord, we will not be tossed around by every wind of doctrine. Don't be seduced by the safety and security of a dogma. Your Lord is not the Church. Your Lord is Jesus Christ. Follow him.

Do you ever actually READ your Bible??
It doesn't appear so . . .

First of all - we are NOT to be "Lone Ranger" believers as YOU are. The Body of Christ is a FAMILY setting (1 Cor 12).
We NEED each other.
1 Cor. 12:12-21
For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are ONE BODY, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves[d] or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

FOR THE BODY DOES NOT CONSIST OF ONE MEMBER BUT OF MANY. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”

As for Jesus NOT being the Church - again, your Biblical ignorance is astounding . . .

In Acts 9, Paul is knocked to the ground and confronted by Jesus for persecuting His CHURCH.
THIS is how the encounter plays out:
Acts 9:3-5
Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am JESUS, whom you are persecuting.

Paul was persecuting the CHURCH, yet Jesus equated His very SELF with His Church.
Paul ALSO tells his readers that the CHURCH is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) and the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

when you follow HIS Church - you follow HIM and the ONE who sent HIM (Luke 10:16).

 

[farouk]

There's one aspect of the Bible that you need to consider in this discussion. The Bible is God's Book. It is God's written Word.

@Prayer Warrior Psalm 119.105; John 17.17; Hebrews 4.12.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Do you ever actually READ your Bible??

Sure. You know I do, so why the insult? Could it be that you are unable to strengthen your argument?

First of all - we are NOT to be "Lone Ranger" believers as YOU are. The Body of Christ is a FAMILY setting (1 Cor 12).

Paul has employed a body metaphor in order to disabuse the Corinthian church of the notion that some people have supremacy over the others according to the role they play. In that context, he speaks of the assembly of believers. Absent is any notion of an organized institution. While Paul argues that we need each other, he speaks nothing about a religious organization. I take issue with your view that I need a religious organization, such as the Roman Catholic Church.

As for Jesus NOT being the Church - again, your Biblical ignorance is astounding . . .

Your insults weaken your case.

Jesus already told us that when someone persecutes one of his followers, it's as if they are persecuting him. Matthew 25 In that context, Jesus says nothing about persecuting an organized religious institution.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sure. You know I do, so why the insult? Could it be that you are unable to strengthen your argument?

Paul has employed a body metaphor in order to disabuse the Corinthian church of the notion that some people have supremacy over the others according to the role they play. In that context, he speaks of the assembly of believers. Absent is any notion of an organized institution. While Paul argues that we need each other, he speaks nothing about a religious organization. I take issue with your view that I need a religious organization, such as the Roman Catholic Church.

Your insults weaken your case.

Jesus already told us that when someone persecutes one of his followers, it's as if they are persecuting him. Matthew 25 In that context, Jesus says nothing about persecuting an organized religious institution.

NOWHERE does Paul or ANY other NT evangelist advocate for disjointed gaggles of “Lone Ranger” agents.
It is ALWAYS described as a “BODY” or an “ASSEMBLY”, etc. – especially here in 1 Corinthians. YOUR view that we are nothing but Lone Rangers shows a real ignorance of the Gospel.

As for Acts 9:4-5 – Jesus EQUATES is very SELF with His Church.
Paul was persecuting the Church, yet Jesus asked him, “Why do you persecute ME?”

And, again – I showed you that the Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul calls the CHURCH – the “FULLNESS” of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23). Christ and His Church are indivisible.

YOUR attempt to divide them is anti-Biblical.
Good luck with that . . .

 

[CadyandZoe]

NOWHERE does Paul or ANY other NT evangelist advocate for disjointed gaggles of “Lone Ranger” agents.

You are repeating yourself.

It is ALWAYS described as a “BODY” or an “ASSEMBLY”, etc. – especially here in 1 Corinthians.

You are equivocating. "church" doesn't mean "Roman Catholic religious organization."

YOUR

view that we are nothing but Lone Rangers shows a real ignorance of the Gospel.

Your words, not mine. I never claimed to be a "lone ranger."

I already gave you good reason to understand that each of us is responsible to the Lord. Faith is not about community or religion. Faith is an existential* commitment to the way, the truth, and the life, i.e. the person Jesus Christ. \

_______
*Fundamental to one's existence. Because he lives, I live.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You are repeating yourself.

You are equivocating. "church" doesn't mean "Roman Catholic religious organization."

Your words, not mine. I never claimed to be a "lone ranger."

I already gave you good reason to understand that each of us is responsible to the Lord. Faith is not about community or religion. Faith is an existential* commitment to the way, the truth, and the life, i.e. the person Jesus Christ. \

_______
*Fundamental to one's existence. Because he lives, I live.

I've tried a LONG time to help BreadofLife understand a perspective other than his own. It's gone no where.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I've tried a LONG time to help BreadofLife understand a perspective other than his own. It's gone no where.

Well, I benefit from the discussion. One thing is for certain, the walk of faith takes courage.

Thanks Jane. May the Lord bless you.

 

[historyb]

You are repeating yourself.

You are equivocating. "church" doesn't mean "Roman Catholic religious organization."

Your words, not mine. I never claimed to be a "lone ranger."

I already gave you good reason to understand that each of us is responsible to the Lord. Faith is not about community or religion. Faith is an existential* commitment to the way, the truth, and the life, i.e. the person Jesus Christ. \

_______
*Fundamental to one's existence. Because he lives, I live.

If you really believe the Bible and look at the NT you will see Christianity was not individualist but cooperate in structure. No less should be expected since God set up cooperate belief in the OT and God does not ever change.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are repeating yourself.
You are equivocating. "church" doesn't mean "Roman Catholic religious organization."

And your extremely ignorant use of "Roman Catholic Organization" speaks volumes.

"Roman" simply refers to a Liturgical Rite - of which there are about TWENTY than make up the Catholic Church.
Others include the Byzantine, Melkite, Maronite, Ruthenian, Coptic, etc. These are largely cultural in nature - not doctrinal - and they are ALL in full communion with each other.

We ALL comprise the ONE Catholic Church - so get your facts straight.
The Catholic Church IS the ONE Church built by Christ and propagated by the Apostles.

Your words, not mine.
I never claimed to be a "lone ranger."

I already gave you good reason to understand that each of us is responsible to the Lord. Faith is not about community or religion. Faith is an existential* commitment to the way, the truth, and the life, i.e. the person Jesus Christ.
_______
*Fundamental to one's existence. Because he lives, I live.

YOUR words - NOT mine . . .
"No, I believe in my own interpretations of scripture. I study and I work hard at it."

This statement implies that you ARE a Lone Ranger . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I've tried a LONG time to help BreadofLife understand a perspective other than his own. It's gone no where.

I've understand MANY perspectives. I simply don't agree with them.
I agree with Christ's Church.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I've understand MANY perspectives. I simply don't agree with them.

Whatever you say.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you really believe the Bible and look at the NT you will see Christianity was not individualist but cooperate in structure. No less should be expected since God set up cooperate belief in the OT and God does not ever change.

Don't confuse a loose association of believers, who agree to meet once a week to hear the words of the Lord, with an organized religion. The two are completely different. The Bible encourages us to meet together. It never encourages us to begin an organized religion or to support an institution.

The New Testament is filled with statements implicating the individual, personal, existential walk of faith. Consider the following verses from Matthew's gospel as a small sample.

Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 9:12
But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.

Matthew 10:37
“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Matthew 10:38
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

Matthew 10:39
He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Matthew 10:40
“He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.

Matthew 10:41
He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.

Matthew 11:6
And blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”

Matthew 11:15
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 12:30
He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Matthew 13:43
Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 21:44
And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”

Matthew 23:9
Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Matthew 26:23
And He answered, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me.

We must all walk that lonely road alone. We just happen to have company.

 

[CadyandZoe]

And your extremely ignorant use of "Roman Catholic Organization" speaks volumes.

You didn't believe me when I told you that insults weaken your argument. More importantly, you don't know what I know. You don't know me. Why then, do you presume to know me?

I know about your claims concerning a supposed "universal church" -- a "catholic" church. And here, once again, we see your equivocation on the words "Ekklesia Katholes" , referring to the general assembly of all believers taken as a whole, which evil men have taken for themselves to indicate an organized religion now called "The Catholic Church". Such men will suffer the same fate as the Judaizers, who brought another gospel, and whom Paul declared anathema.

Jesus was not crucified for claiming to be God, though he is; rather he was crucified for claiming that the Jewish religious institution wasn't God. Jesus threatened their power and authority over the people.

And just as it was in his day, the so called, Catholic Church suffers from the deification of the institution. As such, this institution will suffer the same fate as all institutions claiming deity.

This statement implies that you ARE a Lone Ranger . . .

Then I am a lone ranger.

Let me ask you this, who stands at the judgment seat, being judged according to his or her own deeds? Will God be impressed with Catholic Church membership? Think about it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You didn't believe me when I told you that insults weaken your argument. More importantly, you don't know what I know. You don't know me. Why then, do you presume to know me?

I know about your claims concerning a supposed "universal church" -- a "catholic" church. And here, once again, we see your equivocation on the words "Ekklesia Katholes" , referring to the general assembly of all believers taken as a whole, which evil men have taken for themselves to indicate an organized religion now called "The Catholic Church". Such men will suffer the same fate as the Judaizers, who brought another gospel, and whom Paul declared anathema.

Jesus was not crucified for claiming to be God, though he is; rather he was crucified for claiming that the Jewish religious institution wasn't God. Jesus threatened their power and authority over the people.

And just as it was in his day, the so called, Catholic Church suffers from the deification of the institution. As such, this institution will suffer the same fate as all institutions claiming deity.

Then I am a lone ranger.

Let me ask you this, who stands at the judgment seat, being judged according to his or her own deeds? Will God be impressed with Catholic Church membership? Think about it.

First of all - I haven't "insulted" you. I simply pointed out your ignorance about your flawed use of the terms "Roman Catholic Organization" and "Roman Catholic Church".
There is NO such thing. There is ONLY the "Catholic Church". YOUR folly is a ignorant anti-Catholic slur that is quite common.

Secondly, YOUR claim that Jesus wasn't crucified for claiming to be God, but rather, for claiming that the Jewish institution WASN'T God - this is yet another instance of ignorance - Scriptural ignorance.
I challenge you to show me the Scriptural proof of this Chapter and Verse, please - because Matt. 26:62-66 offers evidence to the contrary . . .

Finally - NOBODY is "deifying" an institution. Christ's Church isn't a mere "institution" - it is the Body of Christ (Col 1:18).
It is Him in His FULLNESS (Eph. 1:22-23).
It is the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

YOUR claim that it is just an "institution" is a false, anti-Biblical fallacy.

 

[Marymog]

Whether Martin Luther was right or wrong, doesn't matter. What matters is that I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and he is holding me personally responsible to study and obey his teaching. You would do well to do the same. Romans 14:4

Whether Martin Luther was right or wrong on how to obtain salvation doesn't matter???? Hmmmm......

Luther thought he was a disciple of Christ also and he thought that he was obeying His teaching also. Soooo you are both the same.

Sooooo does it matter whether you are wrong or right?

How can you ever fulfill the prayer of Christ that we all be One in Him if you study and obey what YOU think His teachings are?

Can you see how your theory makes no sense?

Mary

PS....Romans 14:4 has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Don't confuse a loose association of believers, who agree to meet once a week to hear the words of the Lord, with an organized religion. The two are completely different. The Bible encourages us to meet together. It never encourages us to begin an organized religion or to support an institution.

The New Testament is filled with statements implicating the individual, personal, existential walk of faith. Consider the following verses from Matthew's gospel as a small sample.

For the record, it is possible to simultaneously do/be both of the above: an organized group/institution to help people on their individual walks with Christ. A church does not replace Christ - He alone is the Savior - but it should help individuals come to Him and help strengthen/support them.

 

[CadyandZoe]

PS....Romans 14:4 has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.

Yes, it does. If Paul believed that he had the authority to decide the question, he never would have left it to conscience.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, it does. If Paul believed that he had the authority to decide the question, he never would have left it to conscience.

And yet, in Acts 15:2 - Paul and Barnabas were appointed by the Church n Antioch to go to Jerusalem wot consult wiht the Apostles and Elders regarding the issue with the Judaizers.

They submitted to the Church AUTHORITY to get the matter settled - which is was, at the Council of Jerusalem.
This Authority is a perfect example of what Jesus was talking about in Matt. 18:15-18.

 

[CadyandZoe]

And yet, in Acts 15:2 - Paul and Barnabas were appointed by the Church n Antioch to go to Jerusalem wot consult wiht the Apostles and Elders regarding the issue with the Judaizers.

They submitted to the Church AUTHORITY to get the matter settled - which is was, at the Council of Jerusalem.
This Authority is a perfect example of what Jesus was talking about in Matt. 18:15-18.

I disagree with your interpretation. Paul didn't submit himself to church authority. As he plainly says, he witnessed the gospel he had been teaching in case he had run in vain.

Galatians 2:5-6
But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you. But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.

Note:
1. We did not yield in subjection to them
2. What they were makes no difference to me
3. Those of reputation contributed nothing to me.

NOTHING Understand?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I disagree with your interpretation. Paul didn't submit himself to church authority. As he plainly says, he witnessed the gospel he had been teaching in case he had run in vain.

Galatians 2:5-6
But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you. But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.

Note:
1. We did not yield in subjection to them
2. What they were makes no difference to me
3. Those of reputation contributed nothing to me.

NOTHING Understand?

I wasn't talking about what he wrote in Galatians.
I am talking about Acts 15 . . .

Acts 15:1-2
But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the APOSTLES AND THE ELDERS about this question.

Paul and Barnabas couldn't answer this question on their own. They had to submit to the AUTHORITY of the Church, per Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16 and John 16:12-15.

Your problem is that you don't understand CONTEXT. Without context - Scripture doesn't make sense.
That's why you have the confusion of tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines based on personal interpretations taken OUT of context.